help me make sense of this (affair related)

[timespentthinking]

18 months ago, my H admitted to an affair after months of obnoxious behaviour. I kicked him out, but after a few weeks we agreed to give things a go, mainly for the sake of the DC. Then followed 16 months of on/off toxicity, with short ok periods interspersed with him saying yet more hurtful things, taking very little responsibility for what he did, and me unable to stop hurting and obsessing about it (not surprisingly) etc.

Last month I reached the end of my tether and I told him to leave. We discussed where he should move to, finances, division of child care.

Less than a week later he had to go away for a few days, and he came back different. He said he had realised that he didn't want to be the "old" H, he wanted to face up to his mistakes and be a better person, that he loved me and didn't want to lose me. He has since applied for a new job in a different town (a big thing for him, he has been at his current place for nearly his entire working life and flatly refused to even consider leaving before), he has started reading the Shirley Glass book, opening up about what he did, telling me he loves me every day.

But... firstly, the affair was long. Years. Nearly all of our youngest DC's life at the time, give or take. It has made a total mockery of our family life for that entire period. I can't look at photos of those years without feeling sick. And secondly, it has taken him 18 months - 18 months! - to start facing up to this.

I don't know what to make of it.

do you love him? He has probably sensed that you are not interested anymore and it has sent him inot a panic.

Do you actually think that the affair was definitely over during the last 18 months? Did he have an affair with somebody at work?

If you love him, I would give him another chance, but boot him out as soon as things start sliding again. and tell him that.

Hang on, this man has cheated on you for years and then you've been kind enough to give him a second chance but he hasn't really changed his ways and only now he is doing what you would consider the right things. OP you deserve better than that, you say yourself you are finding it difficult to forget what he has done.

Wouldn't it be better for you to without this man in your life, what does he bring to the party?

What I would make of it is that the affair is now over for good, he's got no-one and he's realised that it's better for him to be with you. In other words, I don't think there are any altruistic reasons for him doing this at all - it is all about him.

You've done the hard part. How you put up with 16 months of the behaviour you describe post-discovery is truly beyond me, but you finally got the strength to tell him it was over and not before time. Don't undo that good work for the sake of his fear of being alone.

He hasn't undergone a Damascene conversion in the space of a week and I'd strongly advise you remaining separated.

Staying together for the kids is never a good idea, especially in this situation. I also think your story illustrates how if an unfaithful person isn't taking full responsibility for his actions, it is better to separate straight away.

I'd personally be suspicious that in his time away his OW called time on his affair and he is scared of being alone.

I would bet everything he has been with the OW in some way the whole time and now she doesn't want to know so he's desperate - sorry - but I think thats what has happened :(

During those 16 months he wasn't with OW - that finished that shortly after I flung him out. He didn't want to set up home with her, which is what she wanted. The bad times were all about him trying to wriggle out of facing the consequences of his affair.

This isn't for the sake of the DCs any more. They were being as damaged as me by his on/off horribleness and that was part of the reason why he had to go. So if he is going to change it has to have very clear benefits for them as well as me, himself and our marriage. I have told him that. The problem with him having spent 18 months adding insult to injury is that now there is no room for messing up. I have told him that too.

Hatty, it has crossed my mind that it's more about him not wanting to be alone. That is probably part of it. I don't know. Though he knows he has a vast mountain to climb if he is to fix all his relationships and yet claims he is prepared to do it... would he do that if he wasn't sure of his feelings?

I feel like I'm missing something. Like he needs to be tested to the limit to see how committed he really is.

I don't necessarily think he has been with OW. Sometimes these men can't admit when they have done wrong, and take it out on everyone else. It's only when they really see what they are losing and think they have lost you, does it change their character.

18 months ago did he really think he'd lost you, or did he know after lip service you'd have him back?

It's your call and yours only to decide what to do. If you think he has changed and you can move on.

House, what you say sounds about right. He now says he thought we could move on without going over the past but has at last realised that though he convinced himself it was to protect me, it was all about covering his own arse.

He did think he'd lost me originally, because I kicked him out. But it didn't last long. I was too nice, too mixed up and scared to stick to my guns firmly enough in the weeks that followed, which probably made him think he could get away with not doing what I knew was necessary.

I want to believe him. But I'm worried this will cloud my judgement.

I think you should bide your time and see if this sudden turnaround of his has any longevity.

He's been pissing about for 18 months (+ several years), sobthere is no sudden rush to get things back on track.

Essentially, they have barely ever been on track.

Move ahead with your separation and creating a stable home life for the children, and see if over the next few years he seems like someone you would like to have a romantic relationship with.

You don't need to decide now. The time for living your life to his timetable is over.

If you want to move forward and give it a go then it will all take time and baby steps are needed. He needs to regain your trust and you need to learn to trust him again, it's not going to be a quick process. Do you think that marriage counselling would help?

You owe him absolutely nothing.

You have already done the separation bit, your DC have already been through that and come out the other side.

So the only simple thing to consider here is whether you still love him enough to be able to move on, truly forgive, and live a good life with him.

That would have to be A LOT of love.

And for me that wouldn't even be enough because I'd still not be able to trust him - too big, too long a betrayal.

I think you are right about him simply being afraid to be alone, and I think that might be one of the issues - deep down, you want to test him because you know that this guy is overwhelmingly likely to simply be doing what he's done all along - prioritising HIMSELF.

When you were hurting, he couldn't make the effort.

When he's reached the point of truly hurting, suddenly it's all systems go.

If I were you I would be pushing ahead with the separation and prioritising MY OWN LIFE - apart from him. I think it's time YOU got selfish, and told yourself - 'He may well still be not worth all this. I'm going to hedge my bets. I'm going to build a single life, incase I turn out to need it. I'm going to put my energies into becomign happy, independent, confident, solvent WITHOUT HIM. If at the end of that he's still around, still trying, and I'm still interested, then I'll consider him. What I won't do is move ahead with him right now because that's far more convenient for him than it is for me.'

I agree he wasn't necessarily seeing the OW throughout the 16 months, but once you ended things apparently for good, I wouldn't have put it past him to have contacted her again to see if there was still a chance with her. Or if not her, seeing whether other opportunities existed i.e. dating sites. There's no sense in any of this that he has chosen you. A more comfortable life? Yes indeedy. More money? Yes again. The other issue is that as a single parent, he won't have you around in the future looking after the kids on the days he has them. Lots of selfish men work that one out very quickly and either decide that returning home is best, or they quickly find a mother surrogate so that they can 'contract out' the childcare when the kids come to stay.

I'm sorry if this sounds cynical, but your husband actually sounds cruel. He compounded all the cruelty that is an affair (a long one, you say) with horrible treatment of your pain thereafter.

You say your initial actions were to kick him out, but you relented after a very brief time.

That's what you're doing here isn't it?

Meanwhile your children have now seen their dad leave twice and have no choice in all the drama and comings-and-goings. I think you owe it to them to stick with this decision, because this must be harming them.

It's really always best in these situations to watch and wait. If he truly wants to become a better person, he will do so regardless of whether there is a relationship at stake. You have nothing to lose by sticking with your decision and seeing over a period of months or years whether he ever becomes the man you deserve. And as long as you're not denying yourself opportunities to meet new partners, you have nothing to lose in that course of action.

No one here can say at all whether he has contacted ow, or not. Personally I would say he probably hasn't. He hasn't been very nice for 18 months because he could get away with it, he didn't have to face up to it.

Now all hell has broken lose and he finally, really, actually thinks he's lost you. He's bucked his ideas up. Admittedly he should have done this 18 months ago, but people like him will take the path of least resistance, and there were no losses for him doing so. Which isn't your fault. But generally men like him only realise what they have when they lose it. So it does make sense he could be choosing to fight for you now it really is crunch time and the dust has settled. This isn't a knee jerk reaction, you've been building to it. IMO.

You seem so unsure and everyone here can't tell you what he has or hasn't done. I'd suggest some individual counselling and couples counselling before you decide your path :)

I think you should still consider him moving out - see how he continues his commitment to change while living apart. If he really wants to do the work then he shouldn't mind moving out for a while.

He hasn't moved out (yet). At first I still thought he should, for all the reasons you give. He argued that it would be hard to mend our relationship if we weren't physically together. I don't necessarily agree, but I wonder if the DC might find it more confusing for him to be moving out and yet still spending time here or with me/us elsewhere, when we haven't decided to throw in the towel definitively.

But I'd chuck him out tomorrow if there is the slightest whiff of deceitful, hurtful or dodgy behaviour.

The unwillingness to have the DC on his own probably featured in his thinking. Relations with 2 teenage DC are strained and they don't make things easy for him. He has a lot of work to do there, whether he stays or not.

He has said he's going to look for a counsellor. We haven't had much luck with them in the past, but finding a good new one is part of his self-improvement plan.

Another issue is that I don't know how I really feel about him. He says he loves me, but I can't say it back. I must do, or I wouldn't be here, but I wonder if I'll ever be able to put all this in the past and live normally. I hate what he did, and wonder what lies he is still capable of. I don't know him.

Him moving out wasn't meant to be about 'improving your relationship' was it? I mean, I assume when you asked him to move out you made it clear the relationship was over? If he thought that this was just a matter of separate residences rather than the relationship's end, then it's unlikely that he has changed tack because the loss of you was too much to bear - and is sounding more and more like this is about his loss of convenience.

If you don't know how you feel about him, it makes more sense to have space from him. I don't agree you're necessarily still in the marriage because you love him - it might be other things keeping you there e.g habit, dependancy, money, sharing the domestic and family workload, pride in having the appearance of an intact marriage.

It would be good to focus on you in all this. What effect do you think it will have on you if you stay in this marriage? What scares you about the alternatives? What are the opportunities for you in both options?

Wow he's good.

No, it isn't about 'improving your relationship'. It's about YOU - or it should be - whether YOU want to give this another go. Yes, undoubtedly the best way for you to get the space and time you need to REALLY work through that would be for him to leave.

But yes of course that wouldn't be the most comfortable option for him, would it?!

'But I'd chuck him out tomorrow if there is the slightest whiff of deceitful, hurtful or dodgy behaviour. '

Chuck away, then, because he is being an absolute little shyster - you have his measure - he just doesn't want to live in a grotty flat making his own dinners and having to look after his children, also known as facing up to the consequences of his own actions. Yes that's hurtful, deceitful and selfish.

It would undoubtedly be better for everyone concerned if he did, you know, including him.

Here's a little test, if you want to explore his feelings a bit more. Sit him down and tell him that no, you want him to leave. You need space and time alone. You need to decide without him always being there, what is really best for you. You also think it would be good for him to have space away. You have thought a lot and this is what you think is best, for you.

And then see what you get back. I'll be astonished if it's along the lines of 'Whatever it takes, I'll do it - whatever you feel you need from me.' Sadly I think you're far more likely to get a long series of explanations and justifications as to why it would be far better for you if he were to stay in the comfort of his own home not having to wash his own socks or come to the fore and be a parent to his kids. I think you've already had that spiel and seen it for what it is. And after all he's done, how dare he even voice those opinions...

Measure him by that.

I see what you mean, and I do wonder about his real reasons. I have asked, several times. He says his motivation isn't financial, social or convenience-related, but because he realised he does love me and doesn't want our marriage to be over. He says he'd never cheat again. Bearing in mind that he said the direct opposites of these things during the 18 months post-revelation, I remain cynical for now.

Still, his change of heart has meant that he is finally starting to deal with this properly, so it seems counter-productive to eject him.

I'm a lot less fragile and scared of the alternatives than I was, having had time to think them through. I'm not thrilled at the thought of being alone, but I'd dispatch him if he doesn't go through with his transformation. I like the idea of a future with a man I love and who loves me back, who is kind, honest and trustworthy etc. If my H turns into this person then great, if I can manage to forgive and move on, but they feel like two enormous ifs.

haven't read all responses but i suspect part of this sudden turnaround is that you're seeing a man who doesn't want to be blamed for the marriage breakdown.

he wants you to be the "bad guy" who wouldn't give him a second chance when he was ready to change etc. etc.

bollocks to that. he was the bad guy. he had a long term affair and made your and your DCs lives hell. he made his bed and now he needs to lie in it frankly...

OP if you love him, it's your choice to give him another chance. but tbh i wouldn't personally trust this sudden change of heart.

It's up to you what you do remember, people do sometimes although well meant, advise like its a game and it's so easy.

It could well be he is doing it for him. OR it could well be that when he finally, actually really thought he's lost you, he comes out fighting. You have to go with which you think it is and keep your wits accordingly. Only time will tell.

doctor, that was my initial reaction. I would certainly be enforcing it to test his commitment now if we didn't have DC.

But as we do, and as he is finally doing what I have been saying I need from him for months, I don't think it'd be good for the DC for him to leave again, only to return (maybe) at a later date. I could be wrong though, about him and about them. My judgement isn't great these days.

"Still, his change of heart has meant that he is finally starting to deal with this properly, so it seems counter-productive to eject him."

Why would it be counter-productive?

If this change is for real, then you asking for space and time to decide what you want will be no problem for him.

"I like the idea of a future with a man I love and who loves me back, who is kind, honest and trustworthy etc"

Well then give yourself the best chance of finding that - make the unkind, dishonest, untrustworthy man leave your home and let him work on himself while you work on yourself.

You've already given him 18 months (and had several years stolen from you).

How much time are you willing to invest in a relationship you aren't even sure you want with a man you're not sure yoh love?

It took him a year and a half post affair to decide he wanted to be with you. And now he's decided (or so he says) you have to just immediately change your plans? Really?

You are his wife and the mother of his children, and for a year and a half he didn't love you enough to treat you well or commit to your relationship. What is such a belated realisation of "love" really worth?

"He said he had realised that he didn't want to be the "old" H, he wanted to face up to his mistakes and be a better person, that he loved me and didn't want to lose me."

So essentially it's all still about him and what he wants.

Forget about what he's saying. Look at what he's actually doing. Does starting to read a book and telling you he loves you really make up for his past behaviour?

And even now he's still not listening to what you want. You want him to give you some space and to leave. He's decided he doesn't want to and that's the end of the matter as far as he's concerned.

He's as selfish as he ever was, only now he has the nerve to disguise his selfishness as being for your own benefit.