DW makes me so sad

[TheMareofCasterbridge]

Lovely Easter with family, little pressies and handmade gifts. I'd made something for DW (am not very artistic, so this is unusual). She thanked me a gave me an awkward hug, such as you might give a colleague or relative. This is the extent of our affection and physical relationship now. :(

OP it will be expensive to run another household but at the end of the day, that 2nd house can be seen as an investment. if you can afford to take on another residence in the same street, honestly i think you should a) seek legal advice and b) really see if you can't swing it, asap.

co-parenting IS possible.

i understand you had a bad time because of your dad... fwiw mine was exactly the same. but you know what, you're being irrational, because you're NOT your dad. you ARE going to put your son first, you're not going to make him feel unstable.

in fact you're going to offer him a home where there are no bad feelings lurking under the tablecloth etc. Where he can go to talk to you and feel safe and learn what it means to be a man, a good human being.

currently his "safe haven" is a place of emotional manipulation and instability, where he's not sure where he stands or why Mummy treats Daddy (who's his role model, the person he wants to be like) like Daddy's a piece of shit. and he feels like he needs to protect YOU from him own mum.

that's not OK
you can offer him more.

The Mare This thread is so sad, it has brought tears to my eyes.
Hope you and your DW can work something out that will give you both a brighter future or maybe

Yes, very sad reading.

Mare Something clearly needs to change. as the status quo doesn't sound healthy for any of you. Perhaps living apart and co-parenting your DS is the way forward.

I do with exP who lives about a mile away. The DCs are happy and there is no tension in either of their homes. I would say that exP and I came pretty close to hating each other in the last couple of years together; while we have both moved on and there is no going back, I would say we are now supportive friends and occasionally share a joke about something in our mutual past.

Before becoming bogged down by the practicalities, perhaps now is the time to float the idea of living apart with your DW. In years to come your DS won't thank you for letting things drag on as they are.

You can't go on like this. Your perception has become so warped and bitter that you honestly think you and your DS would sail off laughing into the sunset if she disappeared forever?

She is and will continue to be one of the most important people on the planet to your DS.

I'm not trying to assign blame, but surely you can see that events have led you to a pretty unhealthy viewpoint. Sounds to me like separation is the only way forward.

I'm sorry this comes across as sad and upsetting to some of you. I suppose I've got used to the whole situation and emotionally moved on a while ago, so am quite matter of fact about it.
Don't really want DW to disappear forever, she needs to be parts of DS' life obviously, they love eachother. I do think he'd have more emotional stability living with just me though. Granted, my perception is warped (fair point) but I am much more rational than DW on the whole.

Here's the thing though, although thinking about separating gives me hope of a happier future (nearly did this about the same time last year, consulted a lawyer and everything), it is a massive one-way decision and am terrified of making the wrong call. Presumably you can understand that?

You do seem to have had something of a volte face on this thread though Mare. It started with you making handmade gifts and appearing to be hurt that your brittle, unaffectionate DW had made no similar efforts ......compared with your most recent posts about your bitterness, emotional disconnection and desire for your wife to leave you and your DS to get on with life.

Being fair to you, I think sometimes men fear forums that are predominantly female and so they hedge their bets a bit with their posts until they feel more comfortable to be themselves. The thing is, co-parenting works best when both parents have a modicum of respect for eachother. As it doesn't seem as though this marriage can be saved, it really is best to get out now before your contempt for her gets worse. It won't do your son any favours if he senses it and it's horrible for a child to have to be the 'parent soother' and feeling as though he is in the middle of simmering, silent, middle-class warfare.

The decision is made isn't it?

It's the announcement and logistics that have got to catch up.

How do you think your wife would react to you ending the relationship? If she promised to meet you half-way and agreed to try, would your heart sink or swell with hope?

So what is the solution to your unhappiness which has a history of a couple of years. You intimate that you believe the relationship with your DW cannot be fixed, leaving you with the choice of doing nothing and continuing to be miserable and bitter or taking a huge step and leaving.

Yes, it is a massive step. When we have DC, we of course all believe we will live happily ever after as a family unit. With care, it can however all be happily ever after post separation.

What are you fearful of forfeiting? Your good relationship with your DS? My DCs probably spend more time with their father than before; they are away with him this week, having a fantastic time; the very same father who never committed time to them in the holidays because he relied on me while he pursued his career and interests!

Have you floated the idea of separating with your DW? Do you know how she will react? Maybe she is of the same opinion but is fearful that this would be wrong for your DS, along with financial concerns. You didn't start feeling the way you do yesterday, last week or even last month. It is time to talk through options with your DW; otherwise the position will be exactly the same, probably more entrenched, when your DS leaves home.

hattytown sorry if I appear a little inconsistent, am massively conflicted, obviously.

DW did also make me a card and we exchanged chocolate eggs (eachother's favourites, well chosen) It was the cool hug and sense of going through the motions that started this off.

undermyskin this goes back more than a few months, or even years. We are talking about rejection dating back to even when we got married.

I need to procrastinate think about stuff for a bit.

Why did the two of you marry, Mare? Given that you are implying she didn't want to have sex or intimacy with you then, not only is it strange that you married her, why did she marry you? Was it a case of it being 'about time' ie all your friends were marrying and the two of you were getting along well enough and didn't want to be single any more? Or was there something else going on?

Please don't dismiss the idea of Relate. DH and I had a few months there at the back end of last year, and if it wasn't for the fantastic counsellor we had, we'd be going through divorce now without a shadow of doubt.

As it is, we are getting along better than ever in 12 years of being a couple. We still have ups and downs, we still row and argue, the difference is how we do it and how we resolve it.

We have to work at it but we work together now, and they are also happy to help and advise you on your own if DW isn't up for it.

Good luck x

Look youneed to split. You know that
Human beings need physical closeness. Before too long one of you will find it with someone else
Why not an amicable split, get thr coparenting sorting before someone else?s involved and rationality goes out the window

Do you think the fact that you have fallen in love with someone else, as mentioned in another thread, has had an impact on your marriage or is that something that has happened since the closeness you had with your wife has diminished?

I think you really do need to face up to things and end your marriage as amicably as you can for the sake of your child.

Get a grip OP really You can do 50/50 don't come here for absolution.

handme's last post triggered a question in my mind:

Is the reason you don't want to initiate a split is because you would not want to see your wife move on and perhaps be happy with someone else (and less concerns over parenting?)

(no need to answer here - just something to think on)

I was going to say - can you explain why you think your son would have more emotional stability if he lived solely with you? Your DW is a SAHP so I can't help feeling it would actually be something of a shock for him. Can you describe what your wife does that makes you feel that way?

But then I saw the poster that says you have actually fallen in love with someone else. Wtf?

Again, not finger pointing, but that's a hell of a fact to miss out when giving background info.

Mare the one thing I think you should not allow yourself to do is to procrastinate further.

You have already walked into a marriage where you felt rejected and then become something of a martyr to feeling rejected and miserable. That will sound harsh, but you do seem to be rather sheepish in allowing things to happen for fear of rocking the boat. That, or you are a optimistic chap who just hopes the situation will improve with time. It must now be clear to you that without some kind of action that is not going to happen.

Does your DW even know how you feel? Perhaps talking to her (and insisting you are heard) without shying away from the raw truth is where you need to start. This may be the catalyst to improving the relationship between you or to going your separate ways.

No, it is hard and most of us go out of our way not to hurt others. But better now than after you look elsewhere for affection. Seize the day!

From a financial point of view, it might be better to divorce as well as live apart, otherwise there might be Capital Gains Tax implications when you come to sell one of the houses further down the line. BUT I am not a sol or tax expert.

I have hung on in my marriage hoping things would improve, if that is what you are doing, then you have my fullest sympathy.

Having seen mention of a third party, I checked your other threads and there was a fairly recent one about you having fallen in love with your female best friend. However it didn't sound as though anything had happened with this woman and tbh, it didn't sound like a particularly serious issue in that it's typical when people are desperately unhappy to confuse supportive friendship for romantic attachment. Certainly, it's a spectacularly bad idea to get involved with someone else right now, because any break-up will focus on that and not the real reasons for separation.

However, having feelings for someone else does lead to disproportionate pessimism about the existing relationship and so you need to be careful that your new determination to resolve this isn't being fuelled by thoughts about your friend. I'm fully aware from what you say that the problems are longtstanding and pre-existing, but as soon as someone else enters the picture, the image gets distorted. Make sure the decisions you make are not being distorted by these other feelings.

There are good days and bad days and it is probably not too hard to go back through this thread and work out which were which. In truth, what is ?good? and ?bad? is probably more down to how I am feeling about life in general rather than necessarily anything DW has done or said. On a bad day, I am pretty unhappy and feel unloved and unlovable. On a good day, I?m generally ok. Obviously there are issues, and things are far from how I would like them to be. In this thread I?ve been responding to questions and referencing examples from over a long period of time, so it is not as though this is representative of the day to day. It?s not how I envisaged marriage though, and I am on the whole more unhappy than not. This can lead me to clutch at straws of hope, one of which might be being on my own, or another being finding someone else. I have been temporarily confused as to how I feel about some things and about someone, but that was never more than an idea really, certainly nothing happened in reality and nor will it. I know for certain that is wrong for me. Similarly, although the idea of being on my own sounds seductive, I am under no illusions that the grass is necessarily greener. And I bet it still needs mowing.

I am never entirely sure whether what comes across here as my ?darker thoughts? are actually how I really feel and what would make me happy, or whether they are just bad and selfish ideas dreamt up by my ?dark side? and needing to be repressed. It helps to explore and discuss them, but I?m still not at all sure even what my own feelings are. Perhaps I do need counselling.

I am surprised by the enthusiasm for separation from this community though. What happened to ?try and work it out? and ?do the right thing?? I am convinced that a flawed relationship is better than a broken one, so long as DC?s interests are at the heart of it. I?m probably sacrificing my own happiness (if such a thing can even exist) along the way, but I still fear that calling time would be sacrificing more.

In spite of everything, I love DW and don?t want to be with anyone else.

Mare i think you see the "enthusiasm" from separation stemming from your allusions to her not being interested in your feelings, or talking about your issues.

if you and her were rowing at least, even if it were in a dysfunctional way, that would be different. but it sounds (from your description) that she just really can't be arsed with you. and that means there's really no recourse iyswim. hence people saying "explore your options re: separation".

that's not to say that you can't at least try to salvage this.

i think you definitely need counselling. i would put money on you having had dismissive or critical parents. you sound like you don't like yourself, are vaguely disgusted by the fact that you have normal human needs, and are utterly terrified by the idea of conflict.

counselling would probably assist you in dealing with these issues. i think if you did, you might command more attention (and eventually respect) from your DW. atm i imagine half the reason she dismisses you is because you dismiss yourself. your posts have me imagining a man who literally erases himself from his own life. if you do that to yourself, i can imagine how your wife "takes your word for it" iyswim.

not that she's not to blame, but what i'm trying to say is it's a complex "dance", this dismissiveness and disrespect. there's a chance that if you deal with your end of the bargain, she'll wake up and change things too. (chance, not certainty)

if nothing else, counselling would help you work out how you really feel. if you can't do that, it makes it harder to work out what the real issues are. as you've seen in this thread.

sometimes doing the right thing is not staying with someone who clearly makes you unhappy.

You have posted so much about how unhappy you are yet seem reluctant to persue counselling even for yourself.

"i would put money on you having had (1) dismissive or critical parents. (2)you sound like you don't like yourself, (3) are vaguely disgusted by the fact that you have normal human needs, and are (4) utterly terrified by the idea of conflict."

1 No, far from it
2 Yes
3 Yes and
4 Yes

Mare I am not sure it is a fair summary to suggest the MN concensus is to embrace you leaving. Your early posts were full of concern about the effect this would have on your son, particularly given your own child hood. There followed a number of posts to give some reassurance that co-parenting can work.

You say yourself that the nature of your feelings day to day fluctuates. To go from 'I would like DW to disappear and for DS and me to get on with life' to 'I love DW and don't want to be with anyone else' are fairly extreme poles.

All relationships have their flaws and no one is happy all the time. But when the bad outweighs the good so heavily ('I am on the whole more unhappy than not') it is time to effect change for yourself. You sound very passive, simply allowing others to rule your mood. I feel a degree of frustration in adding that if you love your wife take some action to improve your relationship with her. Let her know the seriousness of the situation you have come to. Unconditional love I believe is reserved for children only.

I was stuck in a relationship with someone who stonewalled, refused to talk about the many issues we had. I was miserable. I tried so very hard to carry on and keep it an amicable and happy home for our DS.
It didn't work. I had to face up to the fact that because of the way it was affecting me it was having a very negative impact on my child. I left. We 50/50 co-parent and came to realise we actually get on fine as friends, but we both have emotional needs we couldn't meet for each other and the kindest thing to do for ourselves, and each other, was to end it. We both now have new partners and life is brilliant.
I can't say that the half of the week I don't have DS isn't hard, but the time we do have together is so much better because I am happy. Really truly happy for the first time in a very long time.
It makes me so to read your posts, because I see so much there of how I lived for two years. It was two years too long.

I think if you only do one thing for yourself right now it's that you should get some counselling. Do ask your DW if she would be open to it, you have to at least offer her that chance. But if, as you say, she won't go for it - then go on your own. I think you would benefit from professional guidance to help your order your thoughts on this. You are sacrificing so much of your self so as not to rock the boat. Sometimes to make a happy future for our children we do have to put ourselves first, and it's a difficult place to be but very much worth it, in my experience.

As I've suggested before, I really think that as a first step you really should consider trying Relate. If nothing else it would provide a good place to talk about the feelings you have, but don't seem to have discussed with her (personally I'm busy trying to pluck up the courage to discuss stuff between me and DW, which I know I'd have no problem bringing up in a Relate session, but feels incredibly difficult to talk about otherwise).

If she really does refuse to consider going to Relate, then you know that nothing is ever going to change - at least then you have a definitive answer, and you can then consider what other options for change you have. This is where all the enthusiasm for separation comes in - it sounds like you do need to change something, and if your DW isn't willing to, then you're not left with a lot of other options.