DW makes me so sad

[TheMareofCasterbridge]

Lovely Easter with family, little pressies and handmade gifts. I'd made something for DW (am not very artistic, so this is unusual). She thanked me a gave me an awkward hug, such as you might give a colleague or relative. This is the extent of our affection and physical relationship now. :(

I'll look into counselling then, but I don't see what it can achieve other than bringing to the open what we don't talk about, which given they're all insurmountable issues can only end one way.

Just been reading the Relate website.
It sounds really awful and I don't think I can face it. :(

Also just been reading the other long thread about relationship counselling on here. Mixed reviews.

We're intelligent sensible people, surely it can't be beyond us to resolve this for ourselves.

I need to be brave and broach the difficult subjects, not just suffer in silence.

They should invent a smiley for "looking determined"!

I think it's only possible to resolve it yourselves if you both want the same thing. Do you?

I'm not sure that intelligence or good sense is necessarily a replacement for good quality counselling. Both of you are too involved in the relationship and the situation to act in the role of an impartial arbiter/facilitator/asker of the difficult questions.

What aspects of counselling seem the most off-putting? Would it help to have a session on your own first?

the admission of failure?
the sharing intimate details with a stranger?
making the whole thing "real" (as opposed to just my feelings on the subject)?
pressing go on a process that can't be stopped and fearing the destination?
being the "bad guy" that presses the destruct button?
then feeling selfish that I'm putting my happiness first at the expense of everyone else?
That sort fo stuff.

"admission of failure"? why on earth would going to counselling = admitting you've failed? counselling = "we are taking control of this situation and changing our strategy until we find something that works" i.e. we are NOT failing.

failure is pretending nothing is wrong and hoping it will get better without changing anything about your approach... i.e., what you are doing right now! (no offence meant, i am trying to be frank in hopes that it changes your perspective)

the sharing intimate details with a stranger?
yes that's not nice, but surely it's better than living in a purgatorial marriage?

making the whole thing "real" (as opposed to just my feelings on the subject)?
see my definition of failure above. if you don't address it, you're guaranteed to become more and more miserable.

pressing go on a process that can't be stopped and fearing the destination?
again see above

being the "bad guy" that presses the destruct button?
PLEASE don't be one of those men who can't bear to "be the bad guy". it is excruciating trying to communicate with someone like that and there's nothing that erodes respect quicker. you are an adult with feelings and expectations, don't teach your children that they should swallow their feelings in order to keep the peace. that is ridiculous.

then feeling selfish that I'm putting my happiness first at the expense of everyone else?
your children (child? can't recall now) need an example of how to have relationships. you are going to screw them up horribly if you don't get honest and brave about this. would you like your child living in a marriage like this, being hurt and lonely all for the sake of not rocking the boat?

the selfish thing to do would be to continue like this out of a fear of the unknown or of being "the bad guy", and hope the kid/s don't notice. that will be such a huge mistake.

I think your was a little unwarranted, Mare. My question was which aspects were most off-putting, I wasn't questioning why you - or anyone - would find counselling off-putting in general.

Having counselling does not in itself start a process that can't be stopped, nor does it press self-destruct. It just says you want to discuss some difficult feelings in a safe way with someone neutral to guide the conversation and keep the temperature down.

It does shine a light on dark places, which is scary and may cause a crisis in your relationship. It certainly does not mean it has to end. And it's not about putting your happiness first, but finding out if there is a way you can both be happy, and make each other happy. Hopefully the answer is yes, but at least one way or another, if the counselling is done well and you are both honest, you will have the answer to that.

tribpot apologies, I am clearly not au fait with the ettiquete here. I thought meant, "Hmm", as in I'm "Hmm, I'm giving this some thought and.." Is it actually "Hmm, I don't agree with you"? If so, I am sorry, not what I meant at all! I'll leave the emoticons alone! Does this mean I'm old and out of touch and no longer 'down with the kids' and txtspk and all that? Dammit, now I'm really depressed!

oikopolis thank you for being so frank.

Maybe some individual counselling for you? You do sound down, lacking in confidence or something like that, as if you don't deserve love and affection ?

In answer to everyone's very helpful ponits and questions (in no particular order:
It feels like failure because my parents have quite a few divorces between them, and I don't want to be like that.

This is probably irational, but couneselling feels like something "other people" need and would never happen to me.

It will go down badly because DW thinks we're fine. She seems quite happy with "friendship" and seems to have no interest in having a "relationship" with either me or anyone else. She thinks I'm unreasonable to want otherwise. If I even raise the subject, she dismisses it, saying she doesn't feel like having a row. She won't even talk about it.

If we went to counselling, she still wouldn't talk about it. In fact, I strongly doubt she would be willing to go.

It would be destructive because I have quite a lot of pent up bitterness that would come out (don't get me started!)

Is divorced parenting a better example to by DS than being together, albeit in separate rooms? I don't think so. Am not sure I would go quite so far as to describe my marriage as purgatory. As I've said, we're mostly civil (all couple argues a bit, and actually, we don't that much, although this is probably because I bottle it up rather than have a conflict). DS has stability and both parents there for him all the time (well I am at work a lot of the time, but DW is a SAHM, a luxury we might not have apart).

You'll probably say, "but it isn't a choice between the status quo and divorce". Call me a pessimist, but I think it is.

My family and all but one of my close friends, think I should have left long ago.

Sorry, bit of a random collection of disjointed thoughts there.

I have quite a lot of pent up bitterness I was thinking more of counselling for you! (not particularly couples-counselling, esp if she's not interested).

It might help you deal with your thoughts and feelings ...

Would it help to think through the consequences of the various options?

If you stay and nothing changes....

What will happen to your bitterness? Will it lessen, get worse, remain the same?
What effect might that have on your personality and other aspects of your life?
What sort of sex life do you envisage for yourself? Nothing at all, masturbation, infidelity? If the latter, will you do this openly with your wife's agreement, or secretly?
What effect will this relationship have on your son as he grows up and sees very different relationships modelled at his friends' houses?
Will you have any regrets about not having more children?

If you leave and agree a 50-50 residence split........

How will that effect the finances?
Will your work permit that arrangement?
Will you be able to live close by so that your son can travel easily between his homes?
Will your wife want to work on the days she doesn't care for your son?
Will she be able to manage on a reduced income? (50-50 generally involves no spousal maintenance and 50% of the costs of child maintenance)
If you have to work fewer hours, will you be able to manage financially?
You'd be free to meet other people, how does that prospect make you feel?

These seem to be your options, if your wife won't talk about change and won't go to counselling.

You see, on the premise that your wife is not asexual, I'm interested in the pay-off for her in this arrangement. Is her sexuality and happiness in a relationship less important to her than other things? i.e. becoming a mother, not having to work, status, financial security?

The pay-off for you in the status quo is that you get your son cared for while you work, you retain your financial assets, you keep the status of being a married father, you see your son every day while you're at home.
But unsurprisingly, that's not enough for you and it wouldn't be enough for lots of men and women for whom sex and/or love is important.

Of course, none of this deals with your emotional connection to your wife and whether you love her. It sounds like you do, so please don't think I'm belittling that or failing to take it into account. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound as though she loves you as much, because refusing to talk about a partner's unhappiness and the dogged intransigence you describe is in fact selfishness and indicative of a lack of love.

Often these threads discuss the lack of sex and the focus is on that and the unhappiness it creates. Other options are suggested and usually the spectre of getting sex elsewhere crops up.

What tends to feature less in these threads is the acknowledgement that one partner loves and the other doesn't. Or the OP's personal integrity and values as an honest person who won't compromise on them to have secret sex outside of the marriage.

Think through the options - there are undoubtedly more questions than I can think of right now, but in all of this, don't forget what this says about love and care for you as a human being.

when there is a child involved, it always comes down to the same thing.

is the life you're living now, what you want your DS to have? is the relationship you've got, something that you would feel happy for your DS to experience?

as long as you stay, you're teaching your son that this is what he deserves, what he should expect from life, and how he should conduct himself.

your wife sounds like she has no interest in you, or respect for your feelings. when my husband is unhappy i lie awake at night thinking of ways i can support him and help him. i try everything in my power to smooth his way and show him my love and support. he does the same for me. that is love and respect. you deserve the same, and your DS should be raised to expect the same.

do you really want to teach DS that fear of failure and avoidance of confrontation are the principles by which he should conduct his intimate relationships? where do you think that's going to leave him?

of COURSE it's better for a child to have divorced and happy parents. do you think he doesn't know what's going on? he does. he knows how you feel, he can see how your wife dismisses you. and what's worse is he's internalising this whole situation, he believes this is how life is meant to be.

have you thought about going to some counselling on your own? Maybe just talking to someone about how you feel and making sense of it all might help.

Book some sessions for yourself now then ask her to go to counselling and if she says not then tell her you have booked some and will be going.

Tell her why you are going.

whatever you do make sure they are booked before you talk to her and be determined to go.

Lots to think about, will take a while and try to respond properly.

Can I just say thank you to everyone for taking the time and giving such thoughtful advice. I'm genuinely touched. Thank you.

Hattytown thats a lovely heartfelt post.

So sad that people would prefer to be in a loveless relationship than be a strong individual..

Must be hell for the kids.

I know of someone who co-parented by doing week and week about, and it worked very well.

I was brought up in a sad marriage (DM unhappy), and it made me pretty sad too

DS is obviously aware when we argue, but I don't know as he has a view on a "normal" amount of physical affection or demonstrative behaviour. If we argue or if I look a bit down, he will come and give me a hug. Is very sweet, but probably not very positive for his emotional development. He always takes my side too, which I try to discourage and keep him out of things, but that is definitely not good.

It's not that I am fearful of being on my own, far from it. I'm trying to give DS security and stability (albeit a flawed version), probably because I lacked that when my parents split and divorce certainly didn't make either of them happy. I reckon my father put himself first and left the rest of us to fend for ourselves and I am better than that.

Lack of sex is symptom not cause, have already worked that out.

In practical terms, if it came to it, there's a house for sale around the corner from us, I could buy that. Separate rooms or separate houses, it's not that different (apart from the cost obviously!). Or maybe the freedom to just be is worth the price.

The pay off for me with the status quo, is pretty much that I get the school run, after school care and my laundry done. Not much else if we're honest and a good childminder or au pair could replace her.

Can I say something outrageous but probably very honest?

I wish DW would just f### off and let DS and I be happy on our own.

Sorry about that. Feel better for getting that out in the open though.

Strangely enough, I was going to ask you yesterday what would be your ideal outcome and was going to suggest that you didn't put any constraints on your thoughts.

Your last posts sound more assertive and as though you've finally given yourself permission to admit that the love has gone for you too.

That will make it emotionally easier if you separate and co-parent. As it also sounds as though that is financially and logistically possible (at least as regards separate residences) then why wait? Will you be able to work less and manage financially, because on the days you have DS it will be you doing all the school runs/childcare/washing/ironing/homework/packed lunches etc.

Also, remember that while for you personally a 'good childminder and au pair' could replace your wife, that's not true for your son. Co-parenting arrangements are always arranged with the children's rights to live with both parents at the forefront.

Have you thought about doing your own laundry?

Separate but close houses sounds a really good solution.

In the meantime, as Fanjo says, a separation of laundry is a good start.