Really worried about my 11 year old son

[northcountrygirl]

Sorry - I also posted this elsewhere but realised that the board didn't get much traffic so have also posted here in the hope someone could offer advice.

I'm so worried about my son's behaviour - which has got progressively worse for (I would say) the last 6 months.

He was bullied quite badly at school about 3 years ago. The school were really good though and it got resolved pretty quickly. He was bullied again last year. The child that was bullying my son had a lot of problems at home and he was a "known" bully, so I fully believed my son and supprted him - again it was resolved.

This year he says he's being bullied again. From speaking to my son and questioning him a bit I honestly think he's causing a lot of the issues himself - ie "its six of one and half a dozen of another". He says that all the other boys (and some of the girls) are "picking on him". I know a fair few of the children he's saying are being mean. Some of them have been friends with him since reception, and I struggle to believe they've suddenly all turned against him after being such good friends. I personally think there is just a bit of good natured teasing and he's taking it all to heart and then getting angry and agressive with them (because of how he behaves at home). I've spoken to the school about this and they hadn't noticed a problem at alll and were really surprised when I mentioned it. I'm due to go in this week and catch up with his form teacher and head of year.

He's fallen out with so many of his friends. It all seems to be over extremely petty things and it's my son doing the "falling out". If someone "slights" him he just cuts them off - he won't forgive anything even when the other boy apologises. He now only had 3 friends at school (out of 120 children in his year).

At home I find him incredibly temperamental. He made me cry on Monday by saying some very hurtful things. He made his step mother literally sob yesterday. He was being very stroppy so his step mother snapped at him and raised her voice a bit (which is very out of character for her). She immediately apologised but my son said he wouldn't forgive her. I spoke to him about it last night and he honestly coudn't care less about her. I told him that she had been sobbing over the way he treated her and he just didn't accept this at all - he said she was making it up as he would have heard her if this was the case.

He upset his father too. His father has crohns and had a flair up this weekend so wasn't able to take the kids out. Normally, they go all over - out for walks, weekends away, bowling, cinema, laser quest etc etc. It's very rare for them to have a weekend at home. My son was really horrible to his Dad - all he seemed to care about was when his Dad would be well enough to take them out, rather than being concerned about how his Dad was feeling.

His step dad says he feels like he doesn't even want to talk to him anymore as everything gets taken out of context with my son generally flouncing off after slamming a few doors. My son is so rude and disrespectful towards him. It hasn't always been like this - they've never been particularly close but they did used to play chess together and would go ffor walks with the dog.

With me he can go from laughing, to shouting at me, to floods of tears in literally ten minutes.

I am the only person that he will really confide in and the only person he will ever show affection to. This has always been the case.

So, in summary, his father and I are mainly concerned about the following traits:

1. His complete lack of empathy
2. agressive and disrespectful behaviour
3. His social problems
4. His mood swings

His Dad is leaning towards thinking that we've spoilt him, whereas I'm more concerned that it's a mental health issue. There is a family history of mental health problems on both sides (dad has ocd and has suffered from depression in the past, I've had depression, hypermania and anxiety).

I've made an appointment with my GP but it's not for another 3 weeks as I wanted him to see a particular GP. I think I may make another appointment with a different GP in the practise as to be honest, he's getting worse.

have you talked to him? i mean actually asked him what is going on - told him you are worried, that he has really changed in the last 6months and doesn't seem himself and asked what he thinks the issue is? if he is happy? if he has noticed his mood swings and temper etc?

try not to word it as an accusation (know that's hard as it sounds like he takes everything that way at the minute) but about needing to know how he's feeling and how he is and if something is wrong. i'd probably say that when i felt irritable and upset and like i couldn't control my temper i hated it, it really made me feel awful (therefore relating to it as horrible to experience as well as to be on the receiving end of) and see if he can relate to that and from that talk about how he's been feeling whilst acting out like this.

does sound like in terms of the outward expression of whatever is going on he is being a complete little shit frankly who must be very hard to live with. so i'm not saying excuse everything but maybe start with trying to find out what is going on in his head, how he is experiencing these mood swings and anger and hyper sensitivity. you could get him to mood chart - someone recommended a site called moodscope on here recently - check it out and see if you think it would be useful for him.

Sorry - missed a couple of bits out that I also feel are relevant.

He doesn't have one single hobby at the moment other than spending time on the internet and watching tv. He has, in the past, done karate, drama, dancing, gymnastics, beavers, swimming and violin but got bored of everything. I think that's fair enough as I wouldn't want his hobbies to not be enjoyable, but they haven't been replaced by anything. He has expressed an interest in rugby so I'll try and find him somewhere to train this week.

Also, one of the neighbours is in his year at school and he calls for him probably 2-3 times per week. Sometimes, my son is at his Dads, but when he is here I have to practically force him out of the door to play. DS will never, ever call for him as he says the other boy doesn't really like him

in fact you could, if he is cooperative, do things like write down what the changes look like on the outside (re: the behaviour, examples of how he's treating people etc) and get him to write the 'inside' story of how it feels, what's going on in his head that corresponds with those times and examples. dyswim? charts, lists, or whatever to get something tangible down about it all.

do you think he might have mild aspergers or something?

swallowedafly - yes we talk most nights. He comes downstairs after his twin sister and younger sister are in bed and we have "heart to hearts". We'll usually talk for about half an hour or more but he just doesn't understand or agree with what I say. The main problem is his lack of empathy. I will give him examples of when he has been unkind to someone without meaning to. For example, he adores his 4 year old sister but can sometimes be very unkind towards her. I'll say that I know he loves her but sometimes he really hurts her feelings. He'll accept this and say that he didn't mean to but he did it because of x or y. I'll say that because he hurt her feelings that may have led her to say that she wasn't his friend anymore. And that's the bit he just doesn't get. He accepts that sometimes his words and actions are mean, but won't tolerate it in others.

It's not just with his sister though - it's as if the world is out to get him at the moment. He thinks everyone hates him - his friends at school, his teachers, even members of his own family. He just can't seem to see things from any perspective other than his own.

I like the idea of a mood diary. I had cbt myself a few months ago and had considered this. I will talk to him, but I'm not sure that he will actually fill it in. I don't think he would be able to articulate his feelings enough for the "inside story" idea though - although I will try this as I may be wrong. This is an area he is really struggling in at school. His maths is great - level 6 - and his reading is a mid 5 level, whereas his writing is only a level 3a which is really low for his age.

Dinahmohum - I don't really know much about aspergers tbh, although I did mention it as a possibilty to his dad, because of the lack of empathy. He didn't think it was aspergers as he was really upset when his grandad died. I'm not sure if this would rule it out or not though as I don't really know much about it.

I do worry he may be depressed or suffering from anxiety though - especially given my history. I had horrendous depression when I was about a year older than him, to the point I attempted suicide. I guess that's my greatest worry at the moment.

I can help you in 2 ways .....the first I am a mum of teens ...they are moody,selfish and very self centred - sometimes- hes in practice .

I am also the mum of an 11 year old,the first year of secondary is always unsettling,finding new friendships,new peer groups,and the unsettlement would throw us all out of sync coupled with his unhappy experiences at primary hes self protecting and only seeing his viewpoint,hes feeling isolated and alone and needs support and confidence to get him through this tricky time.

Then the very places where he should be happy and number one hes upsetting people by just being him (albeit the moody him) the weekends where he receives 'respite' from the mundane day-day stuff are hindered by his Dads illness and his attitude to his step mum is affecting his relationship with her....the way he behaves with you is acceptable to him he knows you will always love him with his step parents he again feels the flight path is the way to go if he doesnt care then he cant be hurt.

finally having had a severe case of bullying with ds1 i can absolutely assure you that the scars of bullting last a long long time ds1 was bullied 11 years ago and only now that he is at uni do i see the boy he should have been all through school.....he still has limited close friends and if you upset him he is notorious for his grudge bearing.

Time as they say is a great healer.

He's still at primary - year 6. I'm really worried how he's going to be at secondary...

How do you think I should help him? I think he knows how much I love him and he does trust me so talks to me a lot.

I think I'm going to start limiting TV and internet time as well as arranging rugby. I do arrange sleepovers too but sometimes feel that I'm managing his social life too much.

I would say stop managing his social life, he is old enough to sort it out himself now.

I would also say it sounds very hormonal too, and quite typical of a boy his age.

It does sound a little bit though as if there may be a social issue too, especially if he has always lacked affection and empathy for others.. my stepson can be very much like that too and always has been. He is 26 now, and is fine when it all goes his way, but an absolute nightmare when it doesnt. He was never spoilt, and he was also a boy with two sisters too.

Ok - I am so in tune with where you are right now, with my 10 yr old thread below:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/behaviour_development/1434867-Need-advice-10-yr-old-DS-behaviour-issues

I have tried to deal with this via school. Went in to see his teacher on Friday, as I couldn't decide if I was overreacting but my gut was telling me there was/is something wrong.

She says she doesn't believe I am overreacting. She is arranging for an assessment with him with the Senco co-ordinator (and possibly Educational Psychologist).

I had Oppositional Defiance Disorder mentioned to me, and when I googled, I came across Bi-Polar in children, which freaked me out as it seemed to describe my lovely boy to a tee.

It's frustrating to love a child so much and sit and watch what damage they are doing to themselves and the people around them. It terrifies me him being "in the system", and I feel like I have failed him somewhat.

Please let me know how you get on and what works for you.

x

squeakytoy - yes to be honest he is socially pretty inept. I feel horrible saying that about him but he just doesn't speak to people very well sometimes. He isn't physically agressive - it's more the tone of his voice. Sometimes, he takes things said in jest completely the wrong way and he'll shout "shut up" quite nastily really.

ohdear - that is exactly what I'm worried about. I was diagnosed with bipolar myself. I fought the diagnosis as it has pretty serious implications and did manage to get the diagnosis changed to anxiety but this doesn't necessarily make the previous diagnosis "untrue". I know what you mean about being "in the system". Mental health is not an exact science as in my view is still a bit "trial and error" - with treatments and diagnosis varying so much between different health care professionals. I want him to be happy and "OK" but I don't know how best to achieve that. I also blame myself - which ever way you look at it it's my fault he's the way he is - either through my dodgy genes or the way I have parented him.

Your son does sound similar in some ways to my son. My son has "girly hair" and an earring - he does stand out looks wise to the other boys in his school. I think he looks kind of cool though.

I'm wating for a call back from his teacher so will see if they have any suggestions. I spoke to his head of year last week at maths parents evening and she was really good - she didn't dismiss my fears and I know she has spoken to my son and also his class teacher - so I'll see if she has any thoughts on what to do next.

Best of luck with it. I'm so daunted by it all.

x

You might find he's a bit better at secondary school - he'll have more to keep him interested, challenged, etc.

I've got a dd in Yr6 and she's drifting along quite bored and being moody and lippy to boot. Friends with older kids reckon that things improve in one way when they go to secondary but also there may be settling in problems, etc which might make things bad for a bit.

There was a bad fight at DD's school last week with Yr6 boys and one of the other mums said the Yr6 boys often start playing up at this time of year. They've got SATs coming up as well which I think they all fret about a bit. I don't put any pressure on dd about them at all but they get it at school.

I would ask for a referral to camhs before the summer holidays kick in. I have a lot of professional experience in this area and I would want him referred sooner rather than later.

I think academically he will enjoy high school a lot more as they do loads more subjects and sports so he will definitely more interested in the actual work. What concerns me though is the social aspect. The high school has 300 pupils in each year and one of the primaries that feed into it is pretty rough to be honest. If he can't get on with the children at the school he's at now it's gonna be a whole lot worse at secondary as he's going to upset the wrong person before long.

I've just been on the phone with his dad who said that at the weekend he's had my son's friend over for lunch. When the friend was leaving the friend said "see you later loser" as a joke and my son said "well we've got a bmw". I'm absolutely disgusted by that. How could he even think something like that? Some of the people round here have nothing and he's going round showing off about his dad's car and belittling people over it. I don't know where he gets this from as it's just not what either his father or I think. We both believe that we're no better than anyone else. Plus it's not even his dad's car anyway - it's a company car!

bobblesmama - how would I go about the camhs referral?

I think you can ask the GP for a camhs referral.

School will be the quickest way although GP can do it.

Hope it gets sorted soon.

Northcountry, good idea to go to school and/or CAHMS referral, it's hard to see reading this thread whether it's just a moody testosterone filled 11 year old, or whether there's something else going on.

The last remark you relate though, is quite normal for that age. Many 11 year olds are not socially mature, that's why they say and do things we would find offensive or socially unacceptable with their friends. I think you are so worried about your son, you are seeing everything, including silly remarks by an 11 year old boy, as a 'sign' when it is not necessarily the case.

Not to say there's no issues, but don't let your own anxiety overwhelm you, and do make sure you are calm/centred as much as you can (if that means getting extra help yourself, so be it- the CBT sounds great) as it won't help his moods if you are reacting emotionally a lot (and it will drive him into the 'I don't care about anyone' mode as a way of dealing with it).

I am sympathetic, I have similar worries sometimes about my slightly younger dd, and I know when I am calm/centred myself, it's easier to deal with/see what's really going on. And ask the experts, that's what they are there for.

We have had similar problems with our dd, who is now 14. Our lightbulb moment came when we read a description of PDA (pathological demand anxiety) on the national autism website. It might be worth a look, especially before you go to Camhs.

Some of the characteristics are
lack of empathy
a sense of being 'entitled' or almost seeing themselves as adults
all sorts of complicated strategies not to do as they are told/required to do

He sounds like he holds quite a lot of power? Upsetting all these adults and making them cry.

I would agree - you describe someone with mild Aspergers to me.

Oh and re some of the things he says... for example, the BMW comment. I really wouldn't get flustered about that. A simple ' Stop being daft ' is all that needs to be said about that - so, you register disapproval, you don't make a big thing out of it and he receives no attention for it.

Yes maybe I am over thinking things - wouldn't be the first time to be honest.

It's a lovely day here and I've got the day off work so I'm doing a BBQ for tea and their friends are coming round. He's going to spend some time outside - whether he likes it or not!

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm going to do a bit of research later on when I get chance.

Northcountrygirl,
You have my complete sympathy.

I just posted on the support thread for adult autism about my daughter.

So much of what you say sounds like Asperger's. Please don't ignore it, whatever it is. I would get a CAMHS referral ASAP. You can't do anything about it until you know what you're up against; whether it's Asperger's or something else. Both he and you need some professional support and your poor dear son is probabaly miserable about his behaviour. (He probably has insight even if he doesn't demonstrate empathy), and you, his dad, siblings and his stepmother need some help/understanding and kindness.

You sound marvellous; just carry on trying to be loving and non-judgemental (something I've never always managed) and communicating until you get a diagnosis/help.

In my experience, things like this only tend to get worse as hormones, secondary school challenges and extra schoolwork committments and expectations complicate his suffering. Get the help you need now and be as ahead of the game as you possibly can.

Then you may find the help with certain strategies (such a boring word) that will help you understand, keep calm and help yourselves, all of you deserve this. Things may well get better.

Best of luck

Well I've spoken to DS's class teacher and he said that he's seen a positive improvement with his behaviour in class, so looks like it's just home that's taken a negative turn.

I've spoken to my son again tonight and I just feel like my heart could break for him. I honestly think he's depressed. He's so, so unhappy - like he's always on the verge of tears. I told him that I loved him and that I always do - no matter how he behaves, and that he can always be himself at home and he said that he did feel that he is himself at home. So it's good that we can talk.

I'm going to try and get an appointment tomorrow with the gp and try and get the referral asap. My mum thinks it's just a normal part of growing up, but even if this is the case, I don't think there would be any harm in him talking to someone. I know I was a complete wreck at his age and I really don't want him to go through that.

I'm also looking into the alternative remedies suggested as I'm sure they can only be beneficial.

Hi
You have described my ds. Exactly. The lack of empathy, violent mood swings, desire for friends but lack of social skills and addiction to the computer, even the exceptional maths and not so good English levels. We have been very worried that he is depressed - he has talked of suicide. We feel he probably has mild Aspergers but not enough to push for dx.

To give you some hope - my ds is now 13 (second year of secondary school) and coping SO much better with life. Secondary school has allowed him to be challenged at the stuff he's good at like maths and a little maturity has helped him deal with the stuff he's not good at (he has learnt a few tips about social skills- eye contact etc). He has made some friends who have similar interests (x box) and he hasn't talked about hating himself or being hated for a couple of years.

I don't have any advice except keep those channels of communication open. You are lucky that they are open, you know - you're certainly doing something right there .