Is it lack of money holding you back... ?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

An AIBU in disguise. If you're in two minds about ending a relationship are you holding off making the final decision to leave because they're worried about money? Has financial dependence on a partner (voluntary or involuntary) proved to be a mistake? In hindsight, do you wish you hadn't given up a job or rowed all your money together?

Money or worry about money seems to be quite a common theme in a lot of the relationships threads and yet, when I mention it in other parts of MN that it's wise to have a bit of your own money and not be 100% dependent on a partner, I get told that I'm being alarmist and cynical.

absolutely agree. I have my own little nest egg and my relationship is falling apart. Knowing I can survive financially is helping me a bit.

Completely agree, work and financial independence is vital. When I wanted to leave my marriage the fact that I was able to support myself and my child enabled me to make that decision. Subsequently I have become financially dependant, not through a direct choice, and I know I have made myself more vulnerable.

I would advise all women to work even with dc's - part time is preferably to no work. As we all live longer you can't know what the future holds and money and earning potential gives you those choices.

My experience is similar to both the above so that's interesting. 'Vulnerable' is exactly the word. I was always advised by my mother to have 'a bit put by' (implication - 'that he doesn't know about') and it turned out to be excellent real-world advice. ExH turned out to be a spendthrift that would have spent my savings if he'd known they existed. Savings which were a life-line when he left.

What surprises me is that, even on the feminist boards on MN, offering similar advice often gets me a flaming from people who think it smacks of pessimism, lack of trust and secrecy. I'm told that they share everything equally, trust each other implicitly and their lovely DH/DP would never let them down. Which I hope, for their sake, continues to be the case..

Anyone else financially trapped?

I've been pretty startled by that response, too, Cogito!

Somebody made a comment on your other thread (think it was yours) that hit home to me. It was something about women "thinking" they're financially trapped, where really it's another excuse not to leave. That certainly happened to me twice. I was earning a small fortune but, somehow, believed I wasn't in a position to strike out alone. Idiot. Twice.

BUT, that said, it's a whole lot harder to deal with that excuse if it's true!
I see absolutely nothing wrong with having an independence fund and letting your partner know. There's nothing wrong with both having them. If either of you have a problem with it, that indicates a problem in the relationship imo: it implies at least one of you seeks dependence in the other.

I'll answer this later when I have the time. Good thread.

That's funny, my Mum always advised me to have "safety fund" in case I needed it. Of course me being all independent and equal and everything like that thought that was a load of old nonsense and now find myself in a situation where I have no independent assets of my own at all, all our money and resources are in joint names. Prior to having kids I earned a good salary but that was 10 years ago and my skill set is now very out of date so it would be practically impossible for me to go back to that. I do work, but part time and in a low paid sector (child care). I can't say that I am staying with my DH purely for financial reasons but money is an issue - if we separated, the salary that currently provides one reasonably nice place to live and a reasonable (not extravagant) lifestyle would then have to provide for two places to live, and double the costs (e.g two lots of council tax instead of one, just as an example). If I had my own money I would have the freedom (for example) to rent another property and pay a deposit etc which is all quite expensive - as it is, I would have to get DH's agreement for me to do that which is quite disempowering. The negative impact of us breaking up would not only be emotional but the loss of DH's salary would also mean a huge change of lifestyle, and this would definitely have an impact on the children's quality of life so yes money is important. It's not to say it's the only issue, but it is a factor.

I agree. I have a good job, so when I decided to leave I was able to do it immediately.

I also ha savings on my own name. Not a secret, but no accessible by ex. For example as ISAs.

My mother always told me to have an "escape fund". I had 1. Ex h found it and spent it.

I was trapped in a foreign country with no family or support and 3 very young children.( we have no entitled to here,you are on your own ). I did some financial slight of hand/not very honest ( but legal) stuff to secure some secret funds. Figured out that if NOTHING went wrong and I had NO financial surprises I could actually manage on my part time salary,just.

Thanks to my oil guy who delivered oil to me the whole winter and told me to pay when you can, I made it till I found a full time job

I swore then Id never be financially dependent again and I am bringing my daughters up to never rely on anyone else for money either

I lived a life of misery for years until my then youngest went into school as I knew I couldnt pay daycare on what I was making. I was 3000 miles from family and not entitled to a friggin penny of help. I didnt even qualify for free school meals.

My daughters will always have an escape fund if I have my way.Wont see them go through what i did

As all's fair in love and war, you have absolutely nothing to reproach yourself for in relation to your 'sleight of hand' trout, and all credit to you for having the nous to find a way to get out from under.

I see nothing wrong with having an escape fund and not letting your spouse/partner know about itgarlic. Having an ace or 4 hidden up a sleeve can only serve to reinforce one's deportment, shall we say, and no price can be put on the confidence that comes from knowing that you can bail anytime without financial let or hindrance.

My views, on the importance of independence in financial and taxation matters (as a matter of principle), have been described as hysterical on CB threads. I have taken this to mean that either; a) poster really cannot see the difference between forcing financial disclosure between husband and wife (and cohabitees), and a joint application or b) they do not value such financial independence and just don't see this hard-won right as important/relevant.

I haven't merged any of my financial affairs with DH. I would definitely recommend everyone has their running away money and a separate bank account. Independence isn't just how you get the money (it could be earned, inherited or paid from a higher earning DP), but also how you maintain it once it is yours.

can only serve to reinforce one's deportment - Love that, izzy!

It's weird, is it not, Edith? In a relationship featuring honesty and respect - which is what we all aim for, presumably - there's no need to hide one's funds or to hand them over. "Ringfencing" can apply in a couple's finances as much as in government.

If the trust isn't there to begin with, it might be a good idea to bin the relationship (bitter experience!) If you decide to go ahead anyway, hide your escape fund because you're more likely to need it ....

Surely ideas of honesty, trust and respect are not incompatible with everyone having access to some money of their own? 'Ringfencing' is good in principle but, when it comes to the crunch, the name on the account usually determines who holds the cards.

As any finishing school will testify, a few hundred grand safely tucked away in a Swiss bank is the deportment equivalent of a book on the head garlic

And if an account is in joint names and both parties have to be signatory to any withdrawal of funds a surviving party may find that, in the event that their co-signer shakes off their mortal coil without prior warning, they are up shit creek stymied until Probate is granted Cogito.

Cogito, I meant ringfenced as in "No, we can't use my money, that's in my name, for a new car."

izzy, very true!

I have a rigid view of how a finances should be organised - having tried them all! IMO, the only reasonable approach is: All income pooled; household expenses into joint account; remainder split equally to individual accounts. Up to you whether to spend your 'half' on shoes or invest it.

I think it's different if one of you comes to the partnership with significantly more assets ... in the unlikely event that I accrue more funds and get married again, I'd want a pre-nup.

That's probably OK garlic ... :) I'm just wary of people that say 'it's in my account but you can always have money if you need it for something'. Another vote for individual accounts then?

Naturally!

Having been left (virtually) at the altar I was 100% determined never to be dependent on the whims of a man again. When I met my husband he had a decent but averagely paid job, a lot of debt and one house which was in negative equity and in which his ex had parked herself (while he paid the over-inflated mortgage).

When we got married I took charge of the finances completely - he had made nothing but a mess of his money management and simply couldn't be trusted with it. I also work in finance and made 5 times what he earned so it made sense for me to manage things.

He has since retired and is a stay at home father to our 2 children. I am the main breadwinner, every asset we own is in my name, we have completely separate bank accounts and I also sponsor his visa in this country. He works part time to get a little bit of "pocket money" so he can play golf and go out with the boys when he likes but apart from that is completely financially dependent on me. He is however fully qualfied to make his own money if we ever separated or if he decided he wanted to go back to work.

I think he is amazingly brave and trusting to put himself so wholly into my hands. Essentially I have the power to obliterate his life - I could stop paying his mortgage and debt payments, rescind his visa so he would have to leave the country and his children and basically leave him homeless and destitute relying on family to support him until he got back on his feet. Personally I think he is INSANE to trust any other human being that much - but obviously flattered that he does!

I, on the other hand, would never, ever in a million years allow myself to be in that kind of vulnerable situation. If ever, God forbid, my husband cheats on me, abuses me, leaves me or otherwise fucks up our marriage (or in fact I do) I have organised my affairs so that the fundamental financial and operational structure of my life and my kids lives will not be shaken. His practical contribution can be replaced by a nanny, a cleaner and a rampant rabbit without life-shattering upheaval (leaving aside emotional trauma of course).

I will be bringing up my daughters to make damn sure that they are in a strong and independent position financially so that their choices can be made objectively rather than under financial duress. You can never really know another human being completely and everyone has the capacity to hurt you. Build solid foundations which are not able to be undermined by the actions or choices of another person.

I'm glad you're aware of the irony ionysis. Are your daughters similarly aware that strong and independent financial positions don't apply to their dad? Is that not a mixed message?

I'm hoping to bring up my kids to be a lot more savvy than their Dad in many ways, not just financially Cogito!

What I have done for my husband is paid for him to go on several career development courses which qualify him to earn very good money IF he was ever in the position where he needed to. This is not something he initiated but something I encouraged him to do because I wanted him to feel secure and also be in a position where he was choosing to be with me rather than trapped in our marriage. No one likes to think their spouse is only there because they can't easily escape!

But at the end of the day it is up to each individual to secure their own future. If someone chooses to abdicate repsonsibilty for themselves and devolve it onto another, knowing the potential risks, on their own head be it.

I have to confess to feeling little sympathy for women who have been happy to stay at home and allow their husbands to be in complete control of every aspect of their financial security when they suddenly find themselves out in the cold. I want to shake them and say "you silly trusting fool! Why the hell didn't you take responsibility for yourself rather than letting someone else manage every important aspect of your life?!"

Being responsible for the financial welfare of yourself and your family is a stressful, challenging and high pressure role. It involves forward planning, organisation and the juggling of many balls. Of course it is easier to say "I'm just going to let someone else do this" but then you might have to face the consequences of taking the easy road later down the line.

A word of warning - my MiL had her own account with her own money. Her ex-husband just forged her signature and withdrew all the funds. The bank were entirely in the wrong, but she didn't want to pursue it because she just wanted him out of her life. Of course, she'd married a tosser, but she didn't know that when she married him. It would be lovely if all marriages really were based on mutual love, respect and trust, but bitter experience shows that only a small percentage actually are.

I left a DV relationship years ago with no money at all, not a penny to my name and just a couple of bags. I got loads of support - from a local DV organisation, SS, the CAB, I was placed in emergency housing and eventually got a council place of our own. I got benefits and grants to get the basics.

So, I have to say I find it hard to understand how people can't leave due to lack of money. It meant I had to grit my teeth, put up with living somewhere a bit grimier than I was used to, with fewer belongings, a low income and disrupt the dc's routines, but being free from such an awful relationship was far more important than things like that. It was hard work to start again with absolutely nothing - but in a way I'm grateful for the experience, because I know I could do it all again so I would never be so afraid of it that I'd stay in the wrong relationship.

I am going to be a sahm soon and it doesn't bother me that I'm technically dependent on DH. I know that a safety net is there, I am not afraid of going back to council housing and benefits. I also know a lot about my rights on divorce (best friend is a divorce lawyer), so I don't feel pressured into continuing to work just out of fear that DH could turn into an abuser (which I very much doubt, because he is lovely, but of course I know that they all start off like that!). I think it is more empowering to make choices based on what is right for my family now, rather than being constantly being under the shadow of fear that any man could become abusive.

@frenchlinen, thanks for that perspective. Does your past experience in no way make you want to have some financial security of your own? I know you could technically start from the bottom again if another relationship failed (not necessarily involving abuse), but would you really want to do it all again?

Completely agree Cogito. No amount of loved up feelings should persuade a woman to part with her common sense.

It doesn't mean that you have to be planning for divorce, you could also be ensuring that you are not caught out if your partner / husband suddenly is taken seriously ill or dies. Yes, you would eventually get sick pay or life insurance (if your partner is working & has thought of life insurance) but why depend on that and also what are you going to do short term. It is ALWAYS a good idea to have some money somewhere that you could get access to in an emergency.

I passionately wish that personal / household financial management was taught at schools (along with cookery). The nation would be better for it.

I find that being financially independent makes me more able to assess the relationship and actively choose to stay in it. I know I could live on my own just fine (my job, money situation etc would stay pretty much the same) but I choose to be with my husband. I have been financially dependent on him, as he has on me, when we were both studying/periods of not working, but only for a few months, perhaps a year at a time, I always want to have a strong career now so I have options and don't get stuffed financially like my poor mum did when she stayed home for 10 years and he made off with his pension and left her with nothing (not allowed now).