Was this abuse?

[Bobits]

Hi all, this is past tense - I split with my partner october 2011 - But sometimes I still think I am going mad, wondering if I could ask your perspective?

I moved in with ex april 2011 with ds1 (5yrs) from a previous relationship and was about 5months pregnant.

There were 4 incidents regarding my ds1.
The first two were in april. Once my ex dangled my ds1 over the bannisters for being naughty. And the other, when my ex was sitting on the floor he lifted ds1 above his head and threw him to the floor. I freaked both times and he said sorry.
The third was in august in the first month after dd2 was born - he bent ds1's hands back at the rist and really hurt him - I again got very cross.

3 weeks after our split in october - he brought his 2 nephews around to play with ds1. They were carrying on and ex was shouting at them to stop. Ds1 shouted at the ex to stop making his sister cry (as his shouting was disturbing her) He yelled in his face - you want me to give you something to cry about? This reslly upset me as for me, ds1 was only protecting his sister and missing his step-dad role model - His reaction was so harsh. I took dd2 away to feed her and asked ex to settle boys calmly and heard alot of comotion downstairs. I came down to ds1 crying that ex had 'strangled him' his tie out of place and ex claimed to only have grabbed him by the neck (hardly better). After this he is not allowed to see ds1.
At the time these all felt like isolated incidents but in hindsight is obviously different.
I feel ashamed and a bad mum for not leaving sooner.
Though I am grateful and thankful it was only for six months.

With money he was selfish. We went private to have dd2 and during our pg he claimed not to be able to pay half although he earned alot more. Which was a shock as I had saved to stay off the full year. When I was 7 1/2 months I discovered he was going onto live webcam sites boke boke and was upset to say the least! When I wanted to go to the doctors on my own - he said he'd follow me, which made me cross because he wanted the rights but without any of the responsibilities. And although I had no proof was thinking so thats where the moneys gone...(webcams).

I was also upset that as he expected me to be celebate for at least 7 1/2 months (because I had a baby bump and he found it ackward) and he was asking when I could go on the pill when dd2 was 2weeks.

And when he wouldnt help around the house and I was pissed off because we both worked full time before dd2 and should both contribute - was told I was anal over housework and too fussy.

Finally when talking hypothetically what we would do if we break up he claimed he would just stay in our rented house, keep the baby and me and ds1 would leave. I was about 8months pregnant and at the time I felt threatened by this, like I couldn't trust him and trapped because a part of me was scared this would happen.

All this would usually have me run a mile - but I was living with him carrying his child, and wrongly thought I could trust him before we moved in.

Why did he bring this into mine and my ds's lives? Is it likely this started because I was pregnant and more vulnerable?

Thankyou anyone for listening, was good to get off my chest xo

It's worrying u need to check if dangling ur ds over a bannister or pushing his hand back till he hurt him is abusive. The first incident would have been enough for me to leave the bastard him. Don't u think u prob should have left him as soon as there was aggression towards ur son? Poor little thing, he should never have to see this 'man' again.

Hi thankyou for all replies.

In response to posters who didn't fully read the first post where I stated "After this he is not allowed to see ds1."
To elaborate on this After the last incident regarding ds1 I made it clear to him he is not welcome in my house when ds1 is here. He is only allowed to visit in the mornings during term time. If ds1 is off sick - he does not come. He has not seen ds1 since the last incident in october.
Recently when he wanted to collect some of his things from our garage on a weekend I refused and he didn't understand. I made it clear because he was abusive to ds1 and couldn't be trusted around him. As ds1 was off school I made it clear we would not leave our home to facilitate him.

I agree, I have to send ds1 a clear message that this is not acceptable. I do however have to be very careful. DS1 and ex had built a relationship in the 1yr year and 10months before the abuse. My DS1 is experiencing a loss now - and he can never feel he is to blame. That is why I don't want to articulate to him the relationship break down was due to my ex's abuse of him too much.

Many posters have expressed shock at not leaving sooner.
Again as stated in first post and subsequent replies:
I feel ashamed and a bad mum for not leaving sooner.
The only excuse is that I was too scared and weak.
I felt very vulnerable when I was pregnant and the one person I was supposed to be able to trust I couldn't. I know I should a have left sooner.

I believe the happiest and safest place for my dd is her home.
This is why I allow access here. Where I can supervise.
He has been warned if he ever lays a finger on her he will not set foot in my house again.
I have been advised to visit a family lawyer for future reference and arrange a safe plan.

I would not like to completely withdraw access which might lead to him going to court and being granted to take her away with a third party to supervise.

Practical Useful advice for how to move foward from now would be much appreciated.

He has been warned if he ever lays a finger on her he will not set foot in my house again.

The trouble is, this threat has no real weight with him, does it? He knows that you will allow abuse of your children as long as he can also find a way to attack your vulnerabilities at the same time. I think you feel relatively confident that this time you would say enough is enough, but you need to put in place strategies to ensure that does happen - both emotional and practical ones. It would be too easy to persuade yourself that you're free of his control now and that it was all down to you being pregnant that you didn't react as you should have the first time.

As you also point out, you need ds1 to understand that what he suffered was very wrong. I'm not sure that playing down the reason for the split is the best way to go, although I appreciate that is very difficult. Personally I would want to tell him that it is never acceptable for one person to hurt another, and you will not tolerate a person like that in your lives. Irrespective of this, I think you are running a grave risk by having your ex in the house, because if your ds1 finds out (for example when your dd is older and able to talk) he will find again that this terrible man is in his home and his safe space.

I'm sorry to reiterate this but at the moment no-one involved has a reason to believe you will first and foremost protect your children from this man. You should certainly consult a lawyer to arrange a safe plan. You should consider whether allowing him unsupervised access to your dd (since frankly your supervisory abilities are questionable around him) in your home could be detrimental in setting the firm boundaries you want - compared with a contact centre. Your dd is too young to know the difference and a contact centre is fundamentally not behind closed doors, with all the risk that implies.

I think you should also seek professional advice on how best to support your ds and regain his trust. And perhaps consider whether counselling for yourself as well might help you to find strategies to stand up to him. There will undoubtedly be other conflicts with him over the years, hopefully verbal rather than physical. But potentially just as damaging if you don't find out how he managed to press your buttons in such a devastating way last time.

Best of luck to you - the tone of your posts suggests you are still in the process of emerging from the horror of your situation.

consult a lawyer
counselling for you -= preferablyu someon with expertise in domestic abuse

consult a child psychologist (via gp?) on how to speak to you son about what happened - he was there . he experince it. be open about what happened to him and why the behaviour was unacceptable and why therefore is best he does not see this individual.

speak to your own counsellor about why you feel able to supervise contact wih dd yourself but dont trust a third party to do it .

supervisign youself is not sustainable long term.

and right now he is building a really good case for unsupervised contact: you allow him in your home therefore you have apparently no concerns about his beahviour around you and DD (that is how it looks and that is what he can say) .

you trust him to care for your dd (in your presence but you trust him)

he is showing love and commitment reguarly turning up for contact with DD

the logical next step is unsupervised.

there is no logical legal reason for him not to be granted this really - after all, you trust him enough to have him in your home with only you and DD present.

logical next step is he takes baby out on walks etc .

then for whole days and then overnights .

please speak to a solicitor about how this will look to a judge when he aplies for unsupervised contact .

if you have geuine concerns about this indivdual then you should not be letting him in your home. having now done so - in a way, you have to wait for something to go wrong...

if he plays the game right and does nothing harmful then soon you will be allowing him into the garden, then down the road, then afternoons and then overnights.

unless he gives you good reason to say no you wont be able to avoid this, realistically.....

if he is a cunning indivdual (as you say it took a year before he showed true colours with your son) then he is biding his time....building his case for unsupervised contact and really he is doing so very well indeed. ..be very very careful....

or - actually he is fine and will be fine with DD.
and you have nothing to worry about do you?

( i made that mistake of supervising contact in my new home with DC - it went horribly horribly wrong...)

just be careful - if you truly believe that he is not a man you can trust then it will eventually go horribly wrong....but - you might be in a position now - having allowed unfettered access to you and dd in your home (albeit when ds not there) where until that (something bad) happens you can do nothing...

it is naive to thnk that so long as you allow him to visit dd at your home he wont therefore go to court for more access.....

I just want to say, be careful. What you give in terms of contact now will be taken into account when you get to court. You will get there by the way, because your ex is now earning his brownie points - what a good dad he is, visiting regularly, meeting your demands. You must think this contact is ok or you wouldn't be doing it. So why would a court not allow him unsupervised access?

Please think about this long term. What is best for you and your dd and how this situation will change as she gets older. Has your ds had any support? Let him know that the abuse he suffered was not acceptable and that it was never his fault. Have you told his school?

Take care of yourself too. What makes you think your ex won't physically abuse you? I think he still has you where he wants you emotionally. You will be vulnerable while he is in your house with your dd. I think you need to protect the 3 of you as soon as possible. Legal advice, counselling, whatever it takes.

I get this and am very glad you've posted for outside perspective. You're confirming to yourself that he is an abuser, right? People like him can mess with others' heads very quickly, especially if there are things in your past that make you more tolerant of warped behaviours than you should be.

The next step is to start thinking of him as the enemy. Recent replies have outlines why your current visitation arrangements put you in a weak position. For DD's sake, you need to recognise that he is NOT a normal, rational human being and it's unsafe to treat him as one.

I don't see why you can't tell DS X is out of your lives "because he hurt people." He hurt DS and DS needs to know that anyone who hurts him on purpose is to be avoided. End of, surely?

"anyone who hurts him on purpose is to be avoided" rejected is better.

Tribpot - Thankyou for your opinion.

In response to your suggestion of emotional stratagies to prevent futher abuse,
I think the significance of the change in my view of him and circumstances is very relevant.

I moved in with ex with the false belief we were equal in the relationship and he could be trusted. I know this to be false.
I have no reason to persuade myself otherwise and put us in harms way.
As my ex is an abusive man I have no reason to view him as anything other than a threat.

I am not trying to use my circumstances (pregnancy) as an excuse. But as you ask, I am trying to explain my actions.
I was bobits before my pregnancy, I was bobits during my pregnancy and I was bobits after (with a beautiful newborn dd).
Pregnancy does not change a woman but society doesn't see it that way.
Some (not everyone) associate pregnancy with over sensitive, over hormonal
Some associate a new mum, problems, potential post natal depression.

I was scared that no-one would believe me.
That my concerns would not be taken into account
That my judgement would be called into question
And he might take our daughter.

I agree the vulnerability was my own, I visited my gp following the split in november and requested councelling - and was referred to the mental health assessment team. On the notes from the G.P. to the unit - It mensioned "low mood" & possible post partum depression.

...So much more to write but not much time, will digest the rest of your input and post again Thankyou xx

Thankyou again ladies for all your valuable advice.

Despite the advice from the health visitor and GP (Who were notified of the incidents) and also informal advice from a friend who is a social worker and womens aid domestic violence helpline - that I was doing the right thing.

I appreciate the advice offered here sadly comes with experience - I am definately going to visit a lawyer specialising in family law and drastically re-think access arrangements.

What worries me is the discrepancy between the advice from the professionals listed above and you ladies.

Although I actively sought councelling in November - It feels as if the full extent of what has happened and realisation is only hitting me now - I will consider looking into that again.

With regards to ds - he is doing ok at the moment, though I appreciate how the effect of what has happened will have long lasting implications on him - even if he doesn't show it right now or in a obvious way. I am watching his behaviour closely and the H.V has given me a contact for services dealing with family breakdown - for ds to talk through his feelings and issues. I am talking with him regularly (before bedtime is our talk time) and let him lead with sharing his feelings. He misses ex and understands its not his or dd.s fault. He only really talks about the last incident with him and I do tell him it was very wrong, but I don't think I should bring up the others. I do explain how he hurt my feelings and wasn't sorry which is why he doesn't live with us anymore.

Many thanks xx

Apart from getting your legal position clear as you say - just give DC all your love and keep them safe. Everything (and everyone) else are insignificant.

yes you need to speak to people who have actually sat in court hearings regarding contact arangements and applications for residence or shared residency. . of course he may give up and drift away...but if he wants to get control and have more contact with dd then he will likely use legal means....

some judges will immediately assume you are simply two warring ex partners who have fallen out. that you want to prevent contact with his child to be bitter and twisted. that she said/he said without witnesses means nothing...

judges look at evidence and hard facts such as police records and also on how things have been for the past say six months. a parent saying they just want to have the chance to spend quality time with dd in the park, in his own home...that dd has the right to equal parenting ...

speak to a solicitor. ask if you should change the arrangements now. maybe now dd is older and presumably in more of a routine makes more sense to be out in public?

speak to a solicitor who has been attending many many hearings over residence and contact and can tell you in his or her experience what you can put forward as evidence of your concerns and reason to not allow him to take dd away from the house unsupervised - once she say six months old and not needing to be solely BF.

Some good advice here, I agree that you should rethink access arrangements ASAP. I also just wanted to say that you are very brave and have done an amazing thing by getting out. It's hard now i know, but it will get easier. Just get him away from you and your kids, he sounds unstable and unpredictable. Be aware, don't treat him like a normal human, he appears to have no conscience. Trust your instincts.

I just thought I'd mention access arrangements because that's what happened to me. I gave ex a fair bit of access then, when he was violent and abusive and police involved, he went to court to formalise access. He got even more than he'd already had even though I felt he was a risk to our ds's safety and mental wellbeing. It is well worth being aware...

You sound pretty grounded despite all this trauma, I'm glad your ds can talk to you.

inatrance - i posted this back in october, at that point I obviously hadn't put everything together...or saw the anger, resentment and malice behind his actions:

^Hi all,
Will be a week tomorrow I and xdp have seperated due to his porn addiction.

I am in an emotionally strong place - I know Ive made the right choice for the right reasons.
Spoke to an addictions councellor today - It REALLY helped.

I am lost for what to do now -
xdp was not an evil man, just misguided. He chose his lust over us and did not have the courage to do the right thing.

Not sure whether to encourage him to seek help.

I know his actions and choices are not my responsibility,
but he will always be my dd's father.

I don't want to save him but should I point him in the right direction to save himself for the sake of our dd?

I'm scared to even think this - but a sex addiction is what it is, and our beautiful baby dd will be a teenager some day.^

This is what my instincts are telling me, this is what I fear.

lazarusb - I hope ds feels he can talk, he does get angry with me occasionally, and I ask him why... he explains he is upset because ex left... and break it down quite well. He is a very articulate child and I have confidence in him that he will be able to get through this with as much love and support I can give.

xdp was not an evil man, just misguided.

Whereas in reality he assaulted your son. I find it quite hard not to put that in the evil camp, to be quite honest. I find it interesting that in your post from October you don't mention the abuse at all - I see this as a sign you were in deep denial about the extent of the problem. This is something I see on MN quite a lot - people will list out the various concerns they have about a partner and somewhere at number 7 or 8 will be "oh yes and he once beat me unconscious but that was my fault of course". That said, you seem also to be worrying about the almost non-existent possibility that he could be a paedophile? Was this a way of avoiding confronting what he actually is?

If your GP and HV were both given details of the abuse of your DC and didn't report to SS then they should both be reported to their professional bodies.

They should not have just 'logged' the incidents (whatever that means) and done nothing about them

I too left an abusive relationship, myself and my DS and DD were being emotionally abused but no physical abuse suffered. Unless you have been there no-one can judge why you didn't leave sooner, even after the first incident with your DS. It takes a strong person to leave such a frightening place. They wreck your self esteem and you begin to think that it is you not them that is wrong. Yes what you and your children suffered was awful but it can be more frightening to leave and well done for leaving so soon, it took me 12 years! Unfortunately in my experience controlling and abusive men fight for custody, know their rights and try to keep contol of you through the children. Prepare for a long and heartbreaking battle, but there are people out their who can support you. Good luck x

tribpot - i understand what you mean about 'interesting' but wouldn't word it that way, it is my life.

I think that is the nature of abuse. Emotional abuse is often subtle but has the effect of eroding your confidence and self-belief gradually.
With my ex, the physical abuse was so out of character, it was a shock, almost unbelievible.

Normal people are careful about using language like 'abuse' 'paedophiles' 'and contacting social services' - because of the stigma attached and danger of calling it wrong.

The result is victims lack confidence to 'call the abusive behaviour' for fear of calling it wrong. Thats what enables the cycle of abuse.

I don't believe my ex to be a paedophile.
I believe he has the potential to blur the boundaries.
He is an abusive man
(emotional abuse and violence to a child)
He has a porn addiction
(lack of control of his sexual urges)

His father emotionally abused his mother, she left when he was 12, he stayed with the father. He was happier before.

I believe some paedophiles are just psycos.
For others it is about control - much like anoerexia or bulimia - Sometimes the person is trying to get back to a time when they are 'happiest' in their life.

I think therefore dd is likely at most risk when she is 10 - 12 years.
This might sound far fetched - but it's what I think and why.

Thankyou embo2012 for your kind words - onwards and upwards :)

I posted the following in the support thread - am just putting it in here to refer back to...regarding confronting abusive ex and his mother.

-I put across that his dad had abused his mum (Asked her to speak of this, of how she felt).
-Pointed out how his dad showed and stil shows favouritism toward one of his siblings (Which his mum did back up) and how this negatively affects their relationships with him and each other - that they're competitive - so he views his peers as superior or inferior to him. And destroys his self esteem.
-I then pointed out how his dad now is old, angry, jealous of his mothers relationship and can't even see it. This bully has destroyed his whole family.
-I showed him how his actions toward me - destroyed our relationship.
-I showed him how his actions toward my ds1(not his) - mean he will never see him again.

• I put across if he chooses to continue with his abusive behaviour, he will single handedly destroy the r.ship he has with our dd and in 50 years he will look around and there will be no-one there.

I had him at shame and guilt , he saw and felt it(though you're right no acceptance). His mum felt it too, and took it to the next stage of fear of the truth and consequences and as in deep denial - got angry (and you're right again defended him).

A waste of my time prob, I know. But as he won't just drop dead he will always be my daughters dad (even if a supervised distance). I wish she had a better role model.
I will carry that shame myself. But not the guilt, as its over now.

As I'm not a part of my ex's family - it is sad to see from a distance the damage abuse does. His dad has them all trapped with shame, guilt and fear. And he always will until he dies. It's not fair because it was his shame to carry, not theirs. And they are all to scared to stand up to him. It's sad to see that abusive behaviour is a defence for feeling shame I think.

The abuser feels shame but can't quite believe it, the truth is frightening. And because they can't see a way through they deflect, blame, deny, get angry.

How could you believe you were an abuser? If you knew nothing else?
It would mean 'real work' to change - and what if you couldn't?
And if your abusive behaviour (bullying) is based on low self-esteem you couldn't possibly have the self belief you could...
...therefore hide it, deny it, blame him, blame her.
But underneath they know and they feel it.

my dd2 now 20 months has just been awarded 7 hours of unsupervised contact by the courts :( I am so frightened for her.

:(

Why?

You will have to be very vigilant.
But chances are he'll get bored and drop contact eventually.

WHAT? did the court have the details of the abuse, that toy have given in this thread??

It is so worrying and I can't do anything except appeal (which is likely to be unsuccessful :( )

All abuse was reported to ss, police etc shortly after this thread.
It was very traumatic for ds1. And due to his young age he was unable to disclose a crime had been committed.
That along with the no actual physical injuries left meant a lack of evidence.

My exp has denied all malice and the incidents except for the bannisters which he attributed to horseplay.

He has done all the 'work' parenting class, regularly attends supervised contact and the court seem to be going on his 'current behaviour'.

It is hoped to progress to overnight in three weeks :(
Aside from the danger and safety, I'm a continuing breastfeeding mum so the lack of breast milk at night will really unsettle her.

She is too young to directly communicate if anything of concern happens and it seems if I raise concerns - it is disregarded as I am her mother and am being hostile toward the father.

Bloody hell, Bobits, you have my sympathy. It's so awful and unfair when mothers are seen as making false allegations about the father out of spite when you are telling the truth and just trying to protect your child. It's just wrong, wrong.

If it helps, my dd had unsupervised overnights with her father from the same age. I had horrible, horrible imaginings about what might be happening. She's 5 now and can say what's happening. There's a lot I don't like about his parenting, but it's not quite as awful as my more lurid ideas. Your ex may turn out to be less than brilliant but within the bounds of more-or-less acceptable as a parent (and I know that's not the standard we want to set for our vulnerable little dcs).