Mother/Daughter/GC relationship.

[DaughterAndSon]

There is lots of background and I don't want to drip feed, but it would take too long and be too boring to read if I detailed all the ways I have problems with my mother.

My most recent problems are wrt to my mother and her tantrums. I can't think of any other way to put it.
I have a DD who is 3 and a half, and yesterday, my mother and I took DD to an appointment at the hospital. DD was tired and bored, and was not in a good mood generally.

There were 2 older people in the waiting room, snoozing whilst waiting for their appointment. After DD and I were called through to the consulting room, DD had a few tests, then left the consulting room to find my mother while the dr chatted to me.
About 2 minutes later, I heard DD screaming at the top of her voice. I rushed to the door with the dr, and as the dr opened the door, my mother, who was holding DD in the air by the back of her jumper, dropped DD onto the floor at mine and the drs feet and shouted 'I can't cope with this!!! before flouncing off.

The dr's mouth fell open and dr said 'Oh!' and I felt very embarrassed and didn't know what to say. I took DD to the reception to make another appointment, and receptionist was busy, so while we waited, DD had a tantrum because she wanted to run away. I took a firm hold of her hand and explained that we were just waiting for the receptionist to make another appointment, and we would be able to go. I feel like I had control of the situation, even though DD was crying, and I was holding her hand.

The next thing I knew, my mother appeared out of nowhere, and was pulling on DD telling me she would take DD.

I felt like everyone was looking at me.

Later of course, it was DD's fault for being so naughty because she wouldn't be quiet and was waking up the snoozing people.

A few other things are that if we are out and DD is misbehaving, my mother will say 'You'd better be good DD or your mummy is going to give you such a hiding in a minute, you're going to get a belting.' I do not use physical punishment on DD, and although mother says she doesn't condone smacking DC, she always beat smacked us, and some things she says make me disbelieve her opinion that smacking isn't a good idea.

Mother will sometimes play at building towers with bricks, or drawing, but if DD knocks the tower down, or scribbles colours in my mother's intricate drawings, mother gets really annoyed, crosses her arms across her chest, pouts, and tells DD 'I am not playing with you anymore DD because you spolit my drawing/tower etc'. Mother is serious btw. She will still refuse to play with DD if DD asks her to play something different 10 minutes later because 10 minutes ago, you scribbled over my drawing so I am not playing with you anymore.

There is so much more, but basically, mother likes to control every situation, and if she isn't in control, then she will use threats, manipulation or whatever gives her control. Failing that, she goes to extremes and throws tantrums. She thinks DD should do exactly as she says because she said so. There is no compromise. I think she expects too much from a 3 yr old.

She flies off the handle and then blames everyone else, it is never her fault. She never admits fault at all.

A few more things;

When DD was a little over a year old, she was very interested in bins. Very annoying for adults but I imagine great fun for a DC of that age.
DD had managed to get hold of something in mother's kitchen bin, so mother roared at how dirty DD was, then got the whole almost full kitchen bin, and tipped it all over the floor telling DD she could have a fantastic time playing in all of the rubbish now. The atmosphere was horrible. I was aghast, and took DD straight home, leaving mother to clean it up.

If another of mother's GC go to her house and turn the tv up and mother doesn't like it, she will turn it up to full volume so it is deafening, then ask the child 'Are you happy now?'

Mother blames me for not being responsible enough (when DD lost her glasses), not organised enough (if I can't remember something and need to find the details) and apparently I am the biggest slob in the family (because I have friends who I see instead of doing hours and hours of housework every day).
No matter what I do or don't do, mother never seems to approve of anything I do.
She has very little respect for me, if any, has humiliated me by shouting at me in public, demeans my authority with the DC by challenging me, has told me that my friends only tolerate me out of politeness, and cannot keep anything to herself that I tell her.

If you have got this far, you may be wondering why I have anything to do with her, and the truth is, of course she is not always like this. It is only when she is annoyed and when DD is behaving, mother seems to enjoy the time she spends with DD. Some days she gets annoyed easier than others. I had a reason to cut her off completely a few years ago, and did. I then hit a crisis, and my sibling told my mother that I needed her. I didn't, but over a year had passed at that point, and I decided to give it another go, only now it has just gone back to the disrespect, back to how every single thing is about my mother, about how I should just listen to her more and I would get it right, back to how she knows every bloody thing. Arggghhhhhhhh!!!

I don't want DD to grow up to be a people pleaser, and I know she will learn from my example, but to stand up to my mother is not easy. I pluck up the courage over maybe days, force the words out which is very very difficult, and then she picks my argument apart at the seams and turns it around so I am the pathetic one, so I am the unreasonable one, that it is so hard on her, that it is silly to fall out over one incident, that I am hurting her with my terrible accusations. She then complains to my sibling about how I have said terrible things to her, and hurt her feelings so much, cries, and my sibling rings me at all hours, turns up and knocks and knocks on my door, shouts through my letterbox and asks me to once again think about what I am doing to mother, who has done so much for me, been there for me when I have needed her etc etc.

A lot of my life seems to revolve around how my mother feels, whether my mother is happy, what can be done to please my mother, yet I can't honestly say I feel she is this concerned about me. I cannot bear to see her this week, because I am still very angry over her behaviour, yet I know she will be upset that I don't go to see her.
If I explain how angry I am, she will turn it all back to how embarrassed she felt, how if I disciplined DD more, it wouldn't have happened, how it is not her fault, and surely unless someone admits responsibility, what's the point? She just wouldn't get it IYSWIM.

How do I handle this? Am I making a fuss over very little?

I have no one else I can talk to IRL.

Just tell the Dr that the counselling wasn't enough. You need more but you would like to be refered somewhere else this time. Say how much it is all affecting you and your family. Where do you live?

Your mother is a wrongun. It doesn't matter if her intention is to help, because she is toxic and fucks up everyone she comes into contact with.

So much here, I am sitting here with my mouth open.

I just wanted to answer your last point - because I actually can't believe, after everything you have said, that you could think for one moment that this callous, nasty viper is trying to help you.

Um, if you cast your mind back to the situation with your DS, didn't you say that your mum took your benefits from you, when she knew you were struggling, then said how you pay your rent isn't her problem? I think that FACT might help you answer your question.

This woman treats you like a cat playing with a mouse. She probably does manage at some level to convince herself that she's 'doing things for your own good' - but the many times, like the above, that she's deliberately made your life physically, financially harder can't really be explained away even by that. The only real conclusion is that this woman likes to see you suffering. She likes seeing you upset, and failing. It gives her a nasty thrill. Basically, she's a nasty piece of work. Probably stems from that control thing - in her warped mind, if you don't obey 'mummy' - who has to be right - you deserve to suffer.

Sit and think about the prospect of you doing even a fraction of the evil, nasty things she's done to you to your little DD and work out if you could even begin to try and tell yourself you would set out to wreck her relationships with her partner and child, take money from her, turn her into a nervous wreck, for her own good.

Every word oikopolis said is true. If you do not break away from this bloodsucker, your DD will grow up a damaged, lesser, unhappier person. Don't let that happen.

You have done it before and you can do it again. Please, please get her out of your life.

I have a prediction, you know. Your DS is a man now. That thing he said to you - that's actually good, in a way. That has sprung from him being adult and beginning to analyse his feelings, what he has allowed his granny to create for him, the poison she's manufactured for him and his relationships. He came to you to say that, you know. He let you know that. He wanted his mother to know how he felt.

If I were you, I would write your son a letter setting out a lot of things - many of the things that seem to have been crystallised for you in this thread. That would let your DS know that maybe he's not the only one to feel a sense of disconnect, unhappiness, pain when he tries to negotiate his relationships. To maybe set out for him in a more adult way the real terms of engagement between you and his granny around the time he left. To maybe let him see more of the 'picture' that right now, he senses but can't quite get a handle on. It might help him understand in a more positive way when (hopefully when) you say you can't be in touch with his granny any more. That you need a healthier life and home. Maybe that would let him also see that there IS a better way to live and to relate to the ones you love. He may not come home, but I bet it would ease his soul and make you both much closer.

Good luck x

You really should listen to doctor and everyone else!

Am I just fooling myself by thinking that mother takes over to help me? Because she sees me struggling?

I actually thought long and very hard about this post before i sat down to write it. because i don't know if you're ready to hear what i'm saying. but i thought i should give it a try.

yes you are fooling yourself.
there is a very good reason that you are fooling yourself though.

children are, unfortunately, frequently born to morally bankrupt and emotionally warped human beings.

when these children are very small, the idea that their parent is dangerous, evil and sadistic is simply too much to bear. kids need to feel safe with their caregivers, otherwise they quite literally slip into psychosis (that is not an exaggeration).

so in order to feel safe and not psychologically self-destruct, these children have no choice but to believe their parent is fundamentally good.

in order to believe this, they have to therefore believe that they are the ones who are evil, warped, damaged and unacceptable.

they have to believe that their parent tortures and terrifies them because they, the child, are bad inside, and not simply because said parent derives pleasure and satisfaction from injuring them. if they accepted the latter (which is the actual truth, btw), they would be quite literally committing psychological suicide... they just can't accept it without putting themselves in even more danger.

this is perfect for the sadistic parent; they can torture this little soul indefinitely, having convinced it that torture is all it's good for. so of course the parent reinforces it. constantly. as much as possible. they are very careful to cripple that child in a very specific way, so that the object of their torture will always be available to them.

so the little child grows up, and in order to find peace and joy in its own life, it must somehow learn that its parent is the evil one.

but this is an excruciating realisation. most abuse victims try to avoid it all their lives. that fear of annihilation doesn't just go away when you grow up; it remains, it courses through every vein, informs every action and thought.

you are too afraid to accept that your mother is a monster who actively seeks to injure, torture and terrify you, and take your children from you in order to do the same to them.

you want to believe something easier: that all this is your fault, and she has some secret wisdom that's inaccessible to you. that's why you accept everything she does to you. that's why you make excuses for her. that's why you insist, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that she has your best interests at heart.

the child inside you is utterly terrified. you still believe that accepting the truth will kill you. you think that you will lose your mind with fear if you face up to the horrible truth that you were never safe with your mother, that you were on a knife edge your entire childhood, that evil people exist and that you had the monstrous misfortune of being born to one, that you can't control how evil other people can be, that evil has nothing to do with you and you can't stop it by kowtowing to it, that simple fate made your life hell, that none of this was under your control as a child, that you were utterly alone and helpless and vulnerable and nobody ever came to save you.

these are horrible, horrible things to face. you are right to be afraid in that sense.

but you are grown now.
your mother only has as much power over you as you allow her.
really.
that is the honest to God truth.

you need to face how bad your childhood was.
you need to face the fact that you could do nothing about it, and it was not your fault at all. in any way. YOU DID NOTHING WRONG. What happened to you, happened because your mother is a sadistic, warped and evil human being who took pleasure in injuring you.

once you can do that, you will see how evil your mother is and you will be able to save your daughter from her. it's as simple as that.

I think Oik's post describes the extreme of a narcissistic parent and only you D&S know hoe closely that fits your experience.

I also think there are the less extreme types who get a pleasure out of 'proving' how superior they are at the expense of their children - a huge ego trip that reassures them that they are so much more intelligent, sensible, mature etc than other people who they come in to contact with.... still very damaging to be around and with the long-term result of grinding down the person on the receiving end. In your mother's case there also seems to be violence thrown in to the mix.

I'm with other posters who advise taking a giant step back in the short-term, minimal contact and NO time alone with your DD. I also think a few phrases for the (few) occasions you do see you M need to be practised and used - eg 'When I want your help with parenting I will ask for it thanks', 'when I want your advice I will ask you', 'I'm managing fine thank you and don't need or want your help'. In short you need to firmly but calmly reject any unwelcome interference each and every time then ignore histrionics. Never have her in your home so that you can always walk away if she starts tantruming.

You may decide in the longer-term to cut all contact but I think you should allow yourself time to take all this in now you are beginning to see things in a different/clearer light.

Wow pickgo, your second paragraph described my in laws perfectly!

Thank you for such enlightening posts. I feel like the situation is becoming clearer and clearer the more I read.

I did not go to see my mother yesterday after all. Not because I was strong enough to tell her I didn't want to go, nor because I chose to ignore her, but quite simply because when I called her to arrange going to see her, she told me she was not feeling well, and she suggested it wasn't a good idea for DD and I to go over. No argument from me there. Tbh, I breathed a sigh of relief.
(Mother has long term chronic health problems and it is not unusual for her to feel too ill to get out of bed.)

I agree with all of the posters who have said it is slightly more preferable to go to her house instead of letting her in my house, and tbh, I don't generally invite her to my house, although she does knock for me when she is passing. If my car is outside, she will know I haven't gone far, if out at all. Not to mention that when she knocks on my door, DD will make it obvious we are home. DD loves to run to the door and talk to whoever is on the doorstep through the letterbox.
I'm hoping mother doesn't just turn up uninvited (like usual) in the next few days at least.

I am pleased that DD and I didn't go to see mother yesterday, because that's another day DD hasn't been put in a situation where she may be mistreated by my mother.

My sibling came to my house yesterday and told me how my mother had said the hospital visit hadn't gone well because DD was naughty at the hospital. I told my sister that mother had picked DD up by her jumper and dragged her to the doctor's office door, then dropped her there, that mother had told me how I should be a more responsible parent etc, that in fact, it was mother who was behaving the most inappropriately rather than DD.

Sibling's responses were;

Why do you take mother to hospital appts? (Good point I thought. I explained I shall go on the bus in future.)
Prevention is better than cure. If mother's patience is wearing thin, you should remove DD from that situation. You know yourself D&S that DD has been getting tired before or naughty and you don't immediately leave when you should. It has happened at my house too and I have to tell you sometimes that it is time to go. (I have never noticed outstaying our welcome and thought I was keenly aware of this but clearly from siblings point of view, not. Also, why does this feel like I am kowtowing to mother's moods again, when sibling makes it sound such a reasonable and logical thing to do, besides it is not always practical, since mother throws a paddy every time DD embarrasses her, which includes whenever DD doesn't behave beautifully.)
Why don't you only see mother when DD is at pre school? (I agreed this was probably a good idea, but in practice, although possible, it would mean shuffling around my usual arrangements. I am considering this as an alternative though, since it means I wouldn't have to stay long at mothers and DD would be away from her. I'm quite sure mother will notice that she hasn't seen DD after a week or so though and will drop in whilst passing my house to see DD, and I'm not keen on having mother here.)

After that, sibling said 'Anyway, I've got enough problems on my plate atm and am not really interested!' (Charming!! If I turned it around, I would listen to my sibling, and I have never ever told anyone that I am not interested in what they are saying. Funnily enough, mother has said this to me before. "D&S, Not being funny, but I'm really not interested." when I have been trying to talk to her about something that is bothering me.
Maybe this is what people say when they feel comfortable enough with you to be honest??

So, here I am, a week of no mother, and working my way through this maze of conflicting emotions and feelings, but learning more every day on here.

Also, thought it would be helpful to mention that mother rarely comes across as blatantly obviously evil. This may be partly why I have trouble equating some of what's being said to my mother. Not to disregard what anyone is saying because I am taking it all in.

Mother comes across as more of a poor victim, who's been dealt a shitty hand in life, who has struggled and strived to do her best while we were young, who always put her children first and who has been treated horribly by people in her life. She has worked hard all of her life in shitty low paid jobs, basically surviving. I have always felt we should feel grateful for all mother has done for us, which I do.
She demonstrated her love by spending what little money she had.
Mother's children (including me) have grown up to almost feel sorry for my mother, and how hard she has had it. I may be forgetting a lot of what she has done. I tend to forget/play down/justify the nasty things, whereas mother can remember one thing I've said for months, if not years.

Anyway, mother has always appeared to me to be a weak pathetic victim. One of the reasons I hate the thought of being weak and pathetic.
My knee jerk reaction is to feel impatience at any WOMAN who behaves in a 'I don't have a choice but to live this shitty life/I have nothing/I am crap/I am weak/I need a wifebeating man to look after me and my DC because I can't do it on my own.'
I do know this is wrong to feel this way though, and it is my upbringing that has coloured my view of women who are in those situations. I do try now IRL to be supportive of people who say those things, although I try not to get in a situation where people confide that sort of stuff in me, because I know I am not the right person to evoke sympathy for those people.

Have probably come across as a right nasty narrow minded person now.

Your sibling is a chip off the old block! Blaming you for things which are your mothers responsibility. You shouldn't have to leave places because your mother can't control herself.

I honestly feel that if you are to distance yourself from your mother you will need to do the same with your sibling.

I haven't read all your post. Will read the rest.

Its understandable that you don't show sympathy for others. Your mother never showed those sort of emotions. You could even say she never actually taught you how to do it. Or that she taught you that its weak or indulgent to need sympathy. Your sibling has ended up the same haven't they. That is your mothers influence.

You talk a lot about the hard life your mum had. A lot of people have a hard life. What exactly happened to her which excuses her behaviour? She TELLS you it was hard. She wants you to feel bad for her. It helps her manipulate you. Its funny how she has no sympathy for anyone else and has taught her children not to but has plenty for herself and has taught you to as well. Its classic manipulative behaviour. Perhaps you should think of her life in a different way. What choices did she make which made it harder? What might not even be true?

Out of interest what has been so hard about it? I realise she has an illness and worked in low paid jobs, what else?

You say you haven't seen her for a week as though this is quite a bit of time. I haven't seen my dad for a FEW weeks and although irritating sometimes he is a good kind person. A week really isn't that long. This makes me think you and your mum usually live in each others pockets and see each other A LOT! More then is good for you.

I have just come across this thread and wanted to offer you my support.
No real advice that hasnt been said already ....but keep strong! Xx

"Maybe this is what people say when they feel comfortable enough with you to be honest??"

Er, no. The situation you describe is when people don't give a SHIT enough about you to think of YOUR feelings when they say something truly cutting.

D & S you have a right to expect to be treated with respect by even your family, perhaps especially by your family.

To say 'actually I'm not interested' is dismissive and rude. It is not the way people treat others if they have common manners and respect for others.

The victim stuff doesn't surprise me at all - it's all special pleading isn't it? I've had it so tough so special allowances have to be made for me . The usual rules apply to everyone else you can be sure, but they don't to me because I deserve special consideration.

I too think perhaps you do see your mum a bit more often than a lot of people might feel comfortable with. Every 3-4 weeks might be more than plenty! If she comes to your house can't you just say 'I'm on the internet mumsnetting sorting out some finances so this isn't a good time sorry mum. I'll give you a ring and make a time to get together soon. Byeeee!'

PooPoo, you are right when you say 'Your sibling is a chip off the old block! I also related strongly to Your mother never showed those sort of emotions. You could even say she never actually taught you how to do it. Or that she taught you that its weak or indulgent to need sympathy.

My sibling is very much like my mother, by way of their attitude and the things they do. ie: both will think nothing of screaming abuse at me in public, both place the blame for others bad/inappropriate behaviour squarely at mine or DC's door, both use the same phrases as each other etc.

Will answer the rest of yours and other posts later, a friend has just arrived.

Mother has had a hard life, abusive childhood, abusive marriage to first husband who was emotionally/financially abusive, was unfaithful and introduced mother to his mistresses, violent towards mother and very cold towards eldest sibling and I. Also, as far as eldest sibling and I could see, toxic sibling has always been the favoured child. After marrying abusive husband no1, mother's mother passed away, and mother had a nervous breakdown. Mother then separated and divorced only to live through considerable poverty for 2/3 years, where many days, she couldn't afford to eat although was still morbidly obese .
Met and married 2nd husband who was also emotionally abusive, and violent to siblings, myself and mother, although finances improved.
Mother has always kowtowed to her husbands and has always held men in higher esteem than women.
When 2nd husband beat/punched/threw myself and siblings, mother's attitude was that we shouldn't piss him off.
2nd husband had been involved in a RTA, and as such, his injuries were partly responsible for his violence according to mother, and I honestly think she believed that, because she desperately wanted to believe he wasn't evil and he could change.
She did whatever she could to keep the marriage going, and spoke fondly of 2nd husband, excused his behaviour, and tbh, I hated him and didn't want to hear her trying to convince me of his redeeming features (he brings the money in, you wouldn't have XYZ if it weren't for the great 2nd husband.)

With mother's heavy heart, we fled from the marital home when I was 17. Yet mother pined for him and lamented how if only he would change she would take him back. He found our new home, and came knocking on the door. Apparently he had followed her home from work. Mother considered getting back together with him and asked us what we thought. I told her I didn't really mind what she did, but there was no way I was going to go back and live under the same roof as him again. I couldn't believe she was contemplating it tbh, but I was 17 and had never experienced an abusive relationship.
We moved again, and lo and behold, he found us again. Must have followed her home from work again. I stood at the front door and told step father that he had the wrong house while he asked mother to go and chat to him for 5 minutes. I said 'Don't go mother, it's my house step father, now piss off.' I said over and over 'Don't chat to him, he just wants to bullshit you mother.' She couldn't resist and walked out to his car with him.

20 minutes later she came back in. He did not come to the house again after that, as far as I am aware.

Since then, mother has never really got over step father. She has never remarried and lived alone for a number of years, before DS moved in with her.
She refused to divorce step father because "I wont give him the satisfaction of marrying someone else!"
She would sometimes bring him into the conversation 20 years after they had separated to say 'I have got myself a lovely new car, I bet 2nd husband would be so gutted to see me driving round a new car." She droned on a lot about how 2nd husband would be gutted to see how well she'd done for herself that I'm afraid in the end, I told her I didn't think it would bother him, since I had heard on the grapevine that he earnt a lot of money now and had his own business. Her new car would not bother him in the slightest imo.
She then asked me question after question about him, where had I heard, who had told me, how was he?, was he happy?'
I don't know and tbqf I don't care.

She even resorted to putting photo's of him up all over the kitchen 20 years after they had separated . It looked like some sort of therapy tbh, maybe a desensatization (sp?) process? I don't know because I didn't ask. It made me feel sick seeing his smug ugly little face staring out of those photo's at me, but I didn't want to open another conversation about him with mother. Maybe she was waiting for me to ask about why she had the photo's of him plastered to her kitchen cupboards, yet she never mentioned them. And suddenly one day I went round and they weren't there anymore. She must have put them away after having them up for a few months.

Now, apart from DS who doesn't interact with mother at all mother has no one. Of course, mother will say 'sibling has own life and doesn't have time to see me every week, but that's ok, she's got enough to be dealing with every week', but I think because I am single and a SAHM, I tend to see mother more often, whereas sibling will ring to check mother is ok every day instead. I think she gets lonely. I also think that should another man ever come onto the scene, she would put him above and beyond anyone else and we'd hardly see her.
I have often wondered if mother enjoys me being single and lonely although she has never said this, in fact she says she wants me to find someone nice to look after me. It just so happens she knew upon first meeting my ex partner that he was no good for me. (Shame she wasn't so good at choosing her own partners hey?)

She has very few friends, and hardly anyone to help her. Even DS does not help her. I feel sad about that because I feel that if he is not going to help her, he shouldn't live there. By this, I mean, he wont make her a drink, or change a light bulb if asked.

I suppose I see her so often because she has got no one. I usually see her once or twice a week. If I didn't, she wouldn't have the confidence to go out much and would just end up getting depressed and staying in. I suppose I feel guilty that she has nothing in her life apart from 2 of her DC, and whilst her life truly revolves around DS (she could tell you when he last pooed fgs!!) he doesn't bother much with her, and I feel sorry for her. Always have done.

i understand that you have sympathy for your mother. of course you do. she's spent your whole life making you feel guilty and beholden to her. you feel like her bad behaviour and infliction of pain is OK in a complicated way, because she is sad inside etc. etc. and that makes you want to help.

it's actually painfully easy though:

if your mother's happiness is more important than your DD's happiness, then the answer is simple, put your mother first.

if it's the reverse, then do the reverse.

you've spent your whole life explaining to yourself that your mother actually isn't so bad, or that it's OK for her to be bad because she has a good enough reason to be, because accepting that she's bad because she doesn't give enough of a fuck to change just hurts too much.

don't let that habit of mind dictate your daughter's emotional life. that's all i'm saying

oikolpolis I look forward to your posts. You have put into words feelings that I have struggled to make sense of for many years.
The anger, twinned with the guilt, and the pity. I wish my mother had sought counselling herself many years ago. Life is short and she has lost out on so much by making the choices she has made and continues to make. Even when she had the opportunity to do the right thing and put her DC first, she didn't. There were times when she didn't even put her GC first. She would never take responsibility for those times, she would either expect me to accept her justifications as to why she did what she did, or she would deny it had ever happened.
I think she thought her DC were going to remain small and easily manipulated forever, that they would stand by her forever, no matter what happened, because that's what children do don't they? Unfortunately for my mother and fortunately for her children, we grew up.

I know from DS how quickly time disappears. One minute the DC are babies, then they are toddlers, and before you have had the chance to stop and take stock, they are all grown up and all the mistakes you may or may not have made parenting them, well, it's too late to change anything then. You can only move in a forward facing direction.

I want to get it right for my DC. I feel I have made colossal mistakes with DS already, by encouraging him to play this game, dance this dance between mother and I, and I now have another chance to get it right, ok, maybe I wont be perfect, but I can make a difference to DD now I hope, a difference that means she will realise her worth as a human being, and will have confidence and self esteem, and will feel like a valuable human being.

If I have to choose, I choose DD, strangely not because I think either mother or DD deserves happiness more than the other (I know how bad that sounds, sorry ) but because DD doesn't deserve the pain, the anguish, the guilt, the sorrow, and as much as I do not believe anyone including mother deserves those things, I cannot help mother, only she can help herself if she chooses to do so.

OTOH, I think I can make a difference to how DD sees herself and views herself.

Oh, I wish I could make everyone happy, but that's sounding more and more unlikely, I will have to choose who I put first, when all I ever wanted was for everyone to be happy and confident and secure. [frustrated emoticon] [people pleaser emoticon]

as much as I do not believe anyone including mother deserves those things, I cannot help mother, only she can help herself if she chooses to do so

nail -> head.
saying what you did re: DD not deserving more happiness then your mother isn't bad-sounding in the slightest. it's the truth. But as you say your mother has her happiness entirely in her own hands. And has done for decades. if she wanted to make better decisions, she would have by now, simple as that. she is an adult, you have to respect her decision to remain miserable and lonely!

that's actually something that hit me like a bolt of lightning a few years ago. i was reading the Bible, that "honour thy parents" bit, thinking "is this an abusive thing for religion to teach...does it encourage pandering to abusive parents? or is there a secret here that i'm missing?"

and it hit me then. there WAS something i was missing.
"honouring your parents" doesn't mean "sacrifice your happiness to make your parents happy". "honour" doesn't = "pander".

the implication of the word "honour" is actually v v different: a closer rendering would be "honour your parents as the human beings they are, accept that they are autonomous individuals who do not belong to you, who you cannot control".

i.e., if your parents decide to be miserable, then honour that choice! let them be the people they insist upon being. they are not your responsibility; to take responsibility for them is to dishonour them, to treat them as subhuman or inferior compared to your superior understanding of what they "should" do.

that insight was a key factor that helped me disentangle from my parents. i realised there was nothing healthy or helpful about being my parents' crutch/whipping girl/salve. i realised i was actually inviting more and more hideousness and denial into their lives by making myself available to play a part in their pantomime.

when i removed myself, i was quite literally doing the only thing i could that might actually have a chance of snapping them out of it.

i think in your situation the same is true. as long as you're in there, enmeshed, playing your role, you're aiding and abetting your mother in continuing in her ways.

Your mother sounds like a poisonous bitch. For the sake of your dd, I would have nothing more to do with her. No family member would ever treat me like this.

Oikopolis, How did you remove yourself? Was it a gradual process? Or was there an argument? Or did you explain why you were doing what you were doing, then ignore?

Portofino, I hope DD grows up to say No family member would ever treat me like this. wrt my mother. I really do.
I wish my mother didn't treat me this way either. I guess I have allowed it to happen.

As you are all probably aware, it is Mother's day on Sunday.
I don't foresee a pleasant day.

Should have said wrt my mother, myself, her brother, or indeed anyone who claims to care about her.

I have often wondered about the bible commandments 'honour thy mother and thy father' oikopolis, so your post was very poignant to me.