Estranging from mother

[iPud]

Hi
I have had a difficult relationship with my mother since I was a young adult, I guess, but have always felt obliged to maintain a relationship because, well, she gave birth to me. And she did do her best when my siblings and I were children, as a single parent, and I know she made sacrifices, and had it hard.
But since I was a teen, it has been strained, she is always right, expects unwavering respect, is overbearing, opinionated, bossy, won't be spoken back to, won't treat us like adults. I moved away and things were ok, didn't feel close, but no official estrangement.
I let her criticisms and nagging wash over my head, nodded and smiled, just accepted this is how she is, mothers nag and complain and criticise.

But I have a toddler now, and I am increasingly getting annoyed with her undermining me, and ignoring my wishes re him, lots of small things, but they add up, and I am at the stage where I just can't be bothered with her any more. I feel stressed when she's around. And now my toddler is a toddler and not a baby, I feel he's at the age where he will pick up that his mother is being undermined, and I don't want this. I have tried speaking to her about this, but she wont have it, and says I have to accept her as she is, and she can say what she likes. Is she right about this?

My reason for posting, is that I feel I need to cut contact, but I feel guilty about this. Guilty for her, because she is old, won't be around forever, and did have a hard life when she was young, and I am depriving her of her joyful grandson. Guilty for depriving my child of a grandparent. Guilty because outside of MN, it doesn't seem the done thing to walk away from the woman who gave birth to you.
My father isn't around. I have two siblings, brothers, who agree she is overbearing and have their issues with her, but I think she is worse with me, plus it's come more to a head now for me because I have DS, and it's the undermining of my and DH's wishes that are causing me to want to walk away now. They don't have DC yet. I am late thirties, btw.

Would appreciate a few opinions, if I haven't given enough detail, I will update, but this post was already looking long.
Will reply as and when the toddler permits! Thank you.

I have tried speaking to her about this, but she wont have it, and says I have to accept her as she is, and she can say what she likes

No you don't have to accept it. You can't demand that she change, but you can tell her that if she DOESN'T, then she will not play an active part in your DC's life. That is well within your rights, and if she doesn't like it then tough.

Your DC may not have a grandparent, but at the same time they will have respect for their mother, I know which one I think is more valuable!

However, that is far easier said than done.

If you do cut her out be prepared for a backlash from the rest of your family, with the possibility that they will cut you out of their lives in return.

You could try being very firm, and any time she undermines you give her 3 warnings and then just leave. Tell her you warned her, then don't say another word and just pick your things up and walk out the door (listening to Mt Vesuvius erupting in the background more than likely!)

Hopefully with time she will see that you are serious, either that or the fallout will be so big that you will have no choice but to be estranged.

iPud As someone said to me on my recent thread, your mother is depriving herself of a relationship with her grandchild because of how she behaves and unwillingness to change. You are not depriving your ds, if your mother won't change you are then rightly taking steps to protect him, and yourself, from further damage. If she refuses to be stood up to and to reflect on her behaviour, then you are right to cut contact.

She gave birth to you yes but has let you down so abjectly in many ways since. Your brothers also agree that she is overbearing and have their issues with her as well.

She has chosen to act this way; you have not made her this way. It is not your fault she is the way she is.

It is okay, infact more than okay to cut contact; she does not bring anything positive into your life let alone your son's. Toxic parents more often than not make for toxic grandparents as well; she could well go onto use him to get back at you for any perceived shortcomings.

You DO NOT have to feel obligated to this woman any longer even though she is your mother. You DO NOT have to accept her harsh unbearing treatment of you.

Many children now adults who were brought up at the hands of such toxic parents have FOG - fear, obligation, guilt. You certainly have FOG.

I would also suggest you look at and post on the "well we took you to stately homes" thread on these Relationships pages; it could also help you as well.

Would also recommend that you read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward. You may also want to read "If you had controlling parents" written by Dr Dan Neuharth.

She sounds horrid. I keep thinking of your DS. Eventually he will become her target, and he'll wonder why you didn't protect him from her.

She's told you she's going to keep doing things that upset you, despite you giving her a chance to change her ways... that's a slap in your face and in the face of your DC.

Children need to know that they can set boundaries, say NO to someone who hurts them, and reasonably expect to have their wishes honoured. This woman sounds like she would insist that they learn the opposite: that their wishes are meaningless to her, and her wants and needs are far more important because she is older. (which is nonsense)

Bugger that. That's how kids learn to accept abuse in adult relationships.

IMO you would be unreasonable and shortsighted to maintain contact with your mother simply to avoid feeling guilty. There are more important things than what she, or other people, will think of you if you decide to protect your own family.

Now if she had actually said to you "you know you're right, maybe i should rethink my behaviour", I would have a v different answer for you. but she really has spat in your face. what else can you do? she can't be allowed to be a tyrant in her child's home.

MN is always very black and white about this sort of question. Call the police now. Leave him instantly. Cut contact with her immediately etc. Real life is not so easy - cutting all contact for ever may be the 'right' thing to do on paper screen but if you feel unsure or unhappy about it then perhaps there is a compromise somewhere?

Could you demonstrate to your ds how to stand up to a bully by assertively explaining to her what she has just said or done is not acceptable which is why you are leaving the house/putting down the phone? (Instead of letting it 'wash over' you)
Could you spell out exactly what behaviour you don't like to her and explain that if she continues you will have to withdraw yours and ds's contact? (Then follow through).
Could you keep contact with your mother by phone or email on your terms but not allow face to face? (Then contact can be instantly stoppped if she breaks the rules?)

Beware - MN will be jolly cross and accuse you of child abuse if you don't instantly cut all contact now, but I genuinely think in many cases a relationship can be changed for the better if you change how you react to her. You are in control because she wants the contact with you and ds, so you can decide if that is every day for tea or once a year by email. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Like Slambang I think there are different ways to deal with this, though none of them are easy. Asserting yourself can leave to arguments IME, and further short-term estrangement, but could be worth doing, if only for your own self-respect and you-never-know she may back off once you start asserting yourself. Another strategy is to stay-in-touch but distance yourself considerably and see her / speak to her on a fairly minimal basis. If she is more of a nightmare during holidays xmas etc. make other arrangements at those times. Is she supportive in any way that is helpful (and useful to you), or just a complete nightmare from start to finish? - that may also have some bearing? Maybe attend an assertiveness workshop or something too?

I don't think the OP is uncertain about having a need to cut contact, she feels guilty for wanting to do so. MN won;'t certainly be jolly cross for not going NC straight away; this is an incorrect assertion to make.

With toxic parents is their way or no way, compromise is not a word seen in the toxic parents dictionary.

The problem as well is that when you have been downtrodden and intimidated by a toxic parent for many years, it is near enough impossible to try and stand up for your own rights as an individual.

Re iPuds comment:-
"I have tried speaking to her about this, but she wont have it, and says I have to accept her as she is, and she can say what she likes".

Well, the answer to that iPud is that you do not have to accept her for what she is.

Compromise or trying to be more assertive in her prescence is going to be very difficult to achieve. The idea laid out (e.g to be more assertive) may work with normal familial relations but toxic parents do not play by the "normal" rules governing familial relations. Also they are adept in not taking any responsibility for their actions nor apologising for same. I see no remorse from OPs mother for treating OP the way she does, just more hate from a woman who sees her daughter as a scapegoat for all her ills.

"and says I have to accept her as she is, and she can say what she likes. Is she right about this?"

No she's not. You have your own life. Giving birth to someone doesn't give you a right to treat them and their children like crap.

You can't stop her talking, but you can stop seeing her and stop her seeing your DC if she carries on like she is. Explain what behaviour will result in no contact, then follow through. That way it's not you being mean ("she just cut contact!! No warning, nothing!")- it's you explaining what behaviour will get her contact and a relationship, and what behaviour won't.

Funny enough I sort of agree with those who say try to change what you do - and yet I cut my own mother off 15 years ago.

I did it because she was seriously physically abusive. I also cut off my father much later and that has been much much harder. I still cry because I don't have a family. It is incredibly hard to do this I think.

However I do know how difficult it can be when upsets regularly find their way to one's door, and that is a definite benefit of no contact.

But it is offset against Christmases and so on. Perhaps the OP could go for cards? Or telephone only? The risk with that is that she will always be difficult and it will not be happy, but just drag on.

I guess I don't really know.

There are very good books on narcissists and how to handle them.

I cut ties with my Mother but you don't have to. You can set boundaries as advised by the books, and she will learn that if she doesn't CHOOSE to modify her behaviour she doesn't get to see you.

You can learn to stay calm and speak up. xxx

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply.

chitchat, I hope my child will respect me, but I also hope he won't resent me for depriving him of a grandmother. She does adore him, and he laughs with her. And she was a good mother in our younger years, it's just that since we (bros and me) got our own ideas and opinions, she likes it less, and we all clashed. Like she can't let go quite. So it's hard for me to think I am taking the fun grandmother away from my young child. And without being morbid, I am not sure she'll be alive for his teen years. She is good with him. It's how she is to me that bothers me, and really really stresses me out.

candle, she will think I am the one being unreasonable, and that she only expresses her concern at how we are raising him because she loves him and wants what is best for him. I have said she can tell me her opinion on every aspect of child raising once, and I can choose to ignore it or take it on board, but when she gets an idea on her, if I don't do what she thinks is right, she goes on and on. One example, so you know what I mean, is when I was exclusively BFing DS for the first six months, she did not stop banging on about how I must give him water as well, despite me telling her this is not what they recommend these days, and his HV is very happy with his weight/development etc, she would not let it lie. Lots of little things like this, and I am tired of arguing my point. And if I don't argue it any more, just say this is what we are doing with DS, our decision, no discussion thanks, she still goes on, or will have this bristling demeanour which is irritating.

Atilla, I hear what you are saying re OG, I do feel obliged, and I do feel guilt, but I am not sure about fear. Apart from fear of her leading a sad and lonely life without DC, my bros are bother single so no reproducing there for a while, my DS is the only GC she has so far. I can't imagine any DILs putting up with her comments, though I imagine she won't be as full on with them. Toxic sounds too strong a word for her, I feel mean applying it to her. She worked so hard when my bros and I were young, I know she did, and she did do her best, she was devoted and adored us. It's now we are adults it seems harder. Don't know, it just feels harsh.

Will hit send then reply to other posts, always scared I'll lose a long post!

oiko, you are right. She has said she is entitled to her view. It's kinda hard to argue with that though.
She says "while you may be a good, caring mother, you are by no means perfect and can do with a bit of humility by accepting my comments in the sense they are offered", that kind of thing. Well versed in psychobabble she is! Or "In my care and concern for him I may trample on your toes, some or all the time, but take that as a good indication/sign that I care." And "I have no reason to walk on eggshells around you or the boys and their offspring" (by boys she means my brothers and any children they may eventually ever have).

She signed off with "Finally, if you think I miss out on DS, well, so does he, via you - you do not absolve yourself from making the effort to make things more amenable between us with the sole object that if DS benefits, then that is all that matters..... I will continue to be myself, not walk on eggshells, offer him my very best care and love - take me as I am or shut me down - your choice.

You can continue to be yourself too, voice opinions around my opinions, and to coin my phrase : I will take you as you are. End of.

What do you all make of this?

Slam, that is kind of where we are right now, i have explained what she does that irritates or upsets me, and we have not met up in a whileI, but rather than seem sad at this, she is arguing as above re how she is entitled to voice her opinion as she sees fit. And me threatening to withdraw feels like emotional blackmail of a sort.
But I know what you mean re here vs RL, and I know lots here have mother or MIL issues, and it's easy to say cut them out. But I think that hits home for me, because though in RL we have the reality to deal with, the repercussions, when it's here in black and white. I do feel my mother is entirely unreasonable with his she reponds to her adult children when we don't do as she wishes, and it's hard-going.
But in RL, I may have family weddings to go to, with her there, and am already feeling this wil be awkward if we are estranged. :(

LOL

so basically, you need to bend over backwards in order to be "amenable" to her

but she will do exactly as she pleases, and stuff how it makes anyone feel.

nice.

^ i refer to your excerpts at 20:57:45 btw

jane, she is not supportive in any way that is useful to me in that I am a SAHM to a very easy toddler - he was an easy baby too, am lucky. I have no need for babysitting or any of that. I am well-supported by DH, very happy, we are self-contained and capable. She has said she'd love to babysit, we just haven't needed any babysitting.

Attila, I don't feel downtrodden or intimidated, have always stood my ground, unless it's doing my nod and smile routine, but still I feel on top of the situation then as i know she is just being daft and batty. I am strong and confident, my main gripe here is being undermined in front of DS, and the stressful atmosphere she brings.

21yo, yes, but does that not equate to emotional blackmail on my part?

s2s, sorry you have had to cut contact too. It is sad. I feel as society we are meant to respect our elders, especially our parents, and love them unconditionally, support them, blah blah. It feels hard to walk away. And hard when people ask after your mother, and what do you say - er, don't know, we don't talk any more. It doesn't feel normal. :(

wobbly' as per previous, both sorry you have gone through this, and also, feels a bit blackmaily.

oiko, well, not so much bend over backwards, just accept she has her opinion, and I should be grateful to hear it. She is wise in her old age, she has raised children, I should learn from her mistakes, or something!

Obviously only you know what it's like living with your mother O.P., but I do think it would be very wrong of you to deprive her of contact with your son. I have had a very difficult time with my own mother; she threw me out when I was 17, but twenty years later we do tolerate each other more. If she gets on my nerves, I leave the house and we don't speak for a while. I don't expect to change her it would be futile, but I do feel pity for her, she had it tough, no nurturing from my grandparents single parent etc.

Strangely for me having my own kids did the opposite in terms of helping me understand and tolerate my mum better. Raising children is very hard especially if you are already a damaged person, and my kids love their nanny (she's much softer with them).

I think it would take a very great deal of provocation before I could turn my back on my mother (and she has pushed me believe me) I am glad that I put up with her, my conscience is clear. My children don't spend that much time with her and at the end of the day I wouldn't be here without her, she could have left us when she became a single parent, but she didn't.

Our children will always grow up and find something about our parenting that was/is wanting. I think you should think of some strategies that will help you manage contact with her better as opposed to cutting her off entirely.

"You are correct, I am a good, caring mother. I am not always right, but I am his MOTHER. Yes, you are perfectly able to offer your opinion as his grandmother, but once that opinion is offered as DC's mother it is my choice as to whether I act on it or not. If I choose not to that is my right, and no amount of belabouring the point will make me any more amenable to doing what you wish me to do merely because you wish it. I am not expecting you to tread on eggshells, but neither do you have the right to tread on my toes. I have the right to be treated as an adult, with the ability to make my own decisions for myself and MY child. I say I have a duty to make things amenable between us, but you ALSO have the same duty to make things amenable between us. It is not my duty to always do as you advise. My opinion matters, particulaly as DS is MY son. You must bear in mind that my decisions to do things differently to you does NOT mean that what I do is wrong, it is merely different. Again, that is MY choice, a choice which you must respect. You have had your turn as parent, now it is my turn."

Sorry, "YOU say I have a duty to make things amenable...."

(Need to proof read better!)

i do think it's bending over backwards actually. (i probably sound like i am on a witch hunt here, please ignore me if i am coming across as abrasive!! i think your mother sounds quite extreme, but perhaps i have the wrong end of the stick)

i feel you are being asked too much here. your M says, as if it's a foregone conclusion and nothing else could possibly transpire, that she is going to "step on your toes", and you have to suck it up. apparently because the toe-stepping is due to her "love" etc.

whereas my own mother was a childminder and is v v good with babies and small children. she has reams of useful advice. and NEVER would she dare to step on my toes in that way. she moderates her opinions and behaves with tact and treats me with dignity. and she knows i would bollock her mercilessly if she didn't, frankly. because she knows she would deserve it.

telling your own daughter that her emotions are of no consequence, and that she should swallow them altogether is, in my view, completely unreasonable and frankly narcissistic. your DM can tell you her views -- in a respectful and adult way. no need for stepping on toes and "instilling humility"! Talk about over the top!

i think it's time for some strict boundaries! this is your child and your nuclear family, not hers, and you are the one who sets the tone. not her.

Thanks, fab, that is what I am battling with, and it sounds similar to your situation, single mother (her not me), no grandparents to help at all. She worked hard, she did. I'm also 37, are you me?! :) I do pity her, for the tough life she had as a single mother, and now, being so stubborn she risks alienating herself from her only GC. Bt the stress, to me, I feel really really stressed right now, I want an easier life, away from her comments and attitude. Yet I feel sad to be depriving my child of a grandmother.

ChitChat, if I reply to her email, I may just cut and paste your post! :) I have pretty much said all that to her though, yet still she thinks she must tell me what to do, over and over. She knows best. Aargh.