The dreaded make or break conversation tonight with DP. Any advice?

[detoxneedednow]

Hi

I don't think there would be much point going into details about our relationship. The main point is it's not good and I think it's finally come to a head. I could do with a little advice.

We've had so many conversations/arguments about our complicated and volitile relationship from pretty much the start of it, but in the last year i'm starting to lose hope. I feel like I don't really know dp anymore and i'm really scared that he's turning into the kind of person I just don't like.

I know what you're thinking, it doesn't sound good, but the love is still very much there and actually I probably love him more now than I ever have..........if that makes sense. However, the arguing is becoming daily and I can't believe some of the things he says and does. For example, we went out for a chat last night and surprise surprise ended up arguing and we both went to bed in a bit of a huff, but he still rolled over and started fondling me basically. I really lost it with him and told him to get off, which really pissed him off. I don't think he understands that I can't just switch off and pretend for half an hour that everything's fine, just to satisfy him. Having said that, he's not a selfish lover atall. Anyway, that's just one example of how disrespectful he can be, but believe me, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

So we're having "the chat" tonight and I need a different approach, because whatever we've done before hasn't worked. I was even considering making a list of all my annoyances, because whenever we go out to discuss our problems we seem to get stuck on one thing and forget everything else. Has anyone tried the list before. Obviously I would counteract the negatives with the positives, but I fear that the scales would tip in the direction of the negatives.

I know it's not all his fault. I have many issues and I find it difficult to move on and forgive when something bad has been said. I know I have said some pretty awful things myself though.

There are plenty of good things about him, but recently i'm struggling to see anything other than an aggressive, rude, tactless, thoughtless and unnecessarily blunt man. On the flip side though he can be very caring, hardworking, incredibly motivated and extremely loyal. When it really comes down to it, he's always there for me. If I really needed him, he'd be there in a flash and the same goes for our DD. Thinking about it though, I mean physically. He would literally be there, but emotionally he can seem a little vacant. I know that's not because he doesn't care, it's just not really who he is. He'd offer a hug if I needed one, but he usually asks me what I want him to say or do to make it better.

Anyway, i'm really rambling and I said I wouldn't. So basically has anyone got any tips on how we should approach tonights dreaded conversation.

Thanks for reading.

Say 'I feel..' rather than ' You always...' regarding things he does that annoy you

Eg ' I feel when you try and have it off when I'm not in the mood that you don't respect me and are being selfish'

A good book is 'I love you but I'm not in love with you' by Andrew Marshall

here

You don't have to have a face to conversation OP you know involving lists and things. If it's really over for you (suspects not yet) then ring him or text him.

"face to face"

Thanks cybbo, i'll check that book out. I think that sums up how i'm feeling. I will try the "I feel" approach. I know I can just come across as nagging sometimes.

mojito, I don't really feel it's over, no. I have tried the text messaging because it means I can clearly explain what I want to say without any inte
interuptions and it's possibly less naggy. I know he just switches off when he thinks that i'm doing that i'm nagging, which is going to get us nowhere, although I understand that this is pretty much every man's biggest hate

Sorry OP, no advice really coz think that leopards don't really change their spots, they may disguise them for a while but they return.

Do you live together/have DC? If 'no' in both cases, just bin him. Honestly, life is too short to waste it 'working on' a couple-relationship when there are so many more interesting things you could be doing. If a partner is not satisfactory, bin and move on. It's fine to do this even if the partner isn't happy about being binned, no one is entitled to keep hold of a partner who wants out.
If you do live together, it will be a bit more effort to get rid, obviously - and unfortunatley, if you have DC you won't be able to lose the man completely.

But whatever the situation, remember that it;s not true that any man is better than no man. What is true is that being single is much, much better than being lumbered with a crap man.

solid, I hear what you're saying. I don't think he is a crap man, he's a good man overall, but we're not really compatable.

We have a 5 year old DD and yes we live together. We always said we wouldn't just stay together for our DD, but obviously you try harder don't you.

So i'm really stuck now about tonight. I want to get across my point well without losing it, but I just don't know how. He actually instigated tonights talk, so it's not like i'm draggin him out kicking and screaming. I just don't want to hear the usual "i'll try harder" or "I can't lose you, i'll do anything", I want to hear something different, something more concrete and convincing

Couples counselling?

If you want something concrete and convincing then you need to give him specifics. What exactly do you want? Don't say general things like "I need you to be there for me emotionally" - that's far too vague. What exactly do you want him to do in emotionally difficult situations?

Think carefully about what you actually want to change - is it just some of his behaviours or is it his entire personality? IMO it's fine to say to someone "Please don't grope me when we've had a fight," as that's a specific thing that's quite disrespectful, but it's not fine to expect someone to change the way they think or feel about things.

It would be a good idea to make a list I think but when you've made it, read back over it carefully and think "how would I feel if someone asked me to change these things?" If you think you would feel hurt or wronged then it might be worth considering that you're asking too much. Like you mentioned yourself, you just might not be compatible, which is not an easy thing to overcome.

What do you think would be on your list?

Thank you cailin. That was food for though.

It's not his entire personality, but sometimes I think I get his behaviours mixed up with that and wonder what the point is. When i'm thinking clearly, like I am now, I know that there is a lot worth saving. I hope so anyway.

I have to admit, the list would be pretty long.

Consider my feelings more and others for that matter
Don't be so hard with our DD(he tends to raise his voice and lose his temper quite quickly)
Don't come on to me if we've had an argument
Stop thinking that it's a good thing to just be honest. It's bloody easy to just speak your mind, but it's more difficult to hold back and be tactful
So leading on from that, be more tactful
Suggest that we do more things together and don't look pissed off if I suggest it.
Read more. He's only ever interested in reading car and bike magazines. Hardly ever newspapers and I hate to think of him not being able to teach our dd what's going on round the world for example.
Have the curtosy of telling me what time you think you'll be home. I don't need to know the exact time obviously, but just an idea would be nice.
Take the time to get to know dd more. He doesn't seem to have a clue about what dd likes. For example favourite foods, places, programmes and the same goes for her dislikes. I constantly have to remind him.

I'll stop now I think. Obviously I wouldn't just read these off. I would use a bit of tact. I'm sure there's more, but you'd probably all fall asleep reading it.

Your list is reasonable apart from 'read more'

If you want to start the conversation off as you hope it will go on, commnet on your feelings about his behaviour, not his personality otherwise it can turn into a slanging match

How he is as a father and husband can be a reflection of his own father as well, as can your expectations

You can ask each other what you both need from each other.

That's quite a long list. I agree with cybbo that asking him to read more isn't really acceptable. His likes and dislikes are totally his own business and you can't expect him to do an activity that he just doesn't enjoy.

I hate to say it but it does sound like you want his personality to change. It seems to me that he's quite a self-contained sort of person who doesn't have great emotional skill, which isn't a thing that's easy to change. Overall it seems like you want him to mature a lot - become more considerate and patient - which are difficult changes to achieve.

Your list is reasonable, but somehow if that's all it was I don't think it would be make or break so I wonder what's left off the list which makes the relationship so volatile (I don't say that in a nasty way, I have a quite volatile relationship so can sympathise).

Perhaps don't make it make or break, make it 'how are we going to fix this thing?' together. He sounds like he may have some issues of his own to raise, so remember you may have to listen, acknowledge and think about changing those, and someone simply getting out a counter-list wont' help that.

Hope it goes ok.

I would really recommend reading 'Too Good to Leave to Bad to Stay' by Mira Kirschenbaum. It forces you into a definitive answer about which your relationship is, so if you're truly seeking clarity, that's the one to read.

Some people don't shine emotionally. They're basically practical or physical, without a lot of emotional insight. That is not something that you can ask someone to change... though sometimes, after several years, the same person can surprise you and come out of their shell emotionally... but you can never tell, and you certainly can't expect change as a matter of course.

i think you can reasonably say to him, "i feel hurt and cut off from you when you are blunt/insensitive with me/DD."

don't hold out too much hope that he can change though. Usually people are blunt/insensitive either because a) they are unpleasant people who like to hurt others or b) they are genuinely unaware of others and their feelings. ie they are operating with a large blind spot, which by its very nature is difficult to detect & therefore change.

it might be more helpful to simply be calm + frank with him as and when he upsets you. As soon as he does something stupid, immediately say, "I feel hurt now, because you've been blunt with me. It makes me feel like you don't care if you hurt my feelings."

"I feel like you're using me now, because you know i'm upset and yet you expect sex. I feel like you see me as a sex-hole and not a person."

"I feel sad now, because you're talking to DD in a way that is really unfair on her. It hurts me to see her so hurt by you."

no drama, no raised voice, just the truth without guilt tripping. if he tries to argue/defend himself, just don't engage with it. "i'm telling you how you're coming across, it's up to you what you want to do with that. it's not about if you're right or not, it's how you make me and DD feel."

this kind of immediate, calm response can appeal to someone with an emotional blind spot. because it's immediate feedback they might find it easier to learn a Pavlovian sort of response of "think before you talk, the consequences are unpleasant if you don't". and insight can sometimes start to shine through once that response is learned.

also, keeping it calm and reasonable and factual is good when someone has a poor emotional vocab. when it gets heated, people like that tend to panic and say things they regret.

good luck.

I agree that hobbies etc are a completely individual and personal thing, but in this case it's more about how i'm concerned that his lack of certain knowledge which to be fair, most people would know, will affect DD in the future. He's a bright guy overall and he learns quickly, so I find it frustrating that he doesn't want to learn more, if only for dd's sake. I know it may sound strange and harsh actually, but it's always frustrated me.

Well wish me luck anyway. Will be going out in an hour or so, so fingers crossed the evening is a success. I don't want it to be another wasted evening. I have to admit, i'm pretty desperate now. I'm not sure I could take another argument. I'm so bloody drained!!

Crossed posts a lot then!

oiko, thank you. That was really interesting. I never thought about it like that. I will definitely try your techinques which you suggested. So much of what you said I could relate dp to.

mumsy, I think I just stop writing because I thought i'd be boring everyone, but i'll have a think.............I think the reason we have such a volitile relationship isn't actually all dp's fault. I think we clash because we're both so firey and neither of us like to step down, which i will admit, is very immature and i'm trying not to do that anymore. Stubborn!! That's the word I was looking for. We're both really stubborn. Also, dp can have a very nasty and aggressive aura about him, although he doesn't necessarily act on it or know that he has one. I will tell him sometimes "do you realise you look like you hate so and so" he'll either be mortified, or more usually, he'll be really cross with me and either deney it or tell me that it doesn't matter. Sexually we're not compatible, which is odd, because when we do have sex it's really good(usually), but the build up..........we're on different pages. He doesn't seem to realise that it's not all about physical foreplay in the bedroom, but emotional foreplay before we even get to the bedroom. I don't think i'm on my own with that am I ?......

You are going to continue to have problems if you think your DP is basically thick and that it's your job to educate him. No one likes to feel like an improvement project.

He comes on to you because that is men's way of trying to get closeness again. Men express themselves (closeness, tension relief) through sex. Please try not to take it personally, just explain calmly that when you feel unheard you can't. In fact, I will have to have that conversation tonight...

As to the rest, good luck. IMAGO counselling is very good for teaching that 'I feel' dialogue and for the other person to learn to mirror back at you.

Just for the record, I don't think my dp is thick.

Well just reporting back from last night. To be honest it went really badly, although he was all over me this morning trying to mend some of the damage.

It was bound to go badly really as we'd already started arguing in the car, even though I swore I would stay calm. He clearly couldn't be arsed with the conversation. At one point he said that he couldn't do this anymore and our situation had sent him crazy and he felt like he was on the edge of a break down. I should point out actually that we live with my parents for complicated reasons, mainly financial, so you can imagine that that can cause a lot of problems when there's a child involved. I think he's just feeling really imasculated and like he can't provide properly for his family. He sounded like he was willing to walk away from us because he couldn't take the living situation anymore................like I could!! He's been backtracking this morning and I think he regrets saying those things. At one point when we were out he actually snapped at this man "what?!!" because he kept looking over at us. To be fair, I think this man was concerned for me because dp was raising his voice (again) and waving his hands around. As soon as I told him to calm down and that the reason this man kept looking over was purely out of concern, he looked upset with himself and backed off. I know he knows he has a problem, but I don't want to have to keep reminding him that he comes across so aggressive sometimes............well alot of the time recently. There doesn't seem to be any lightness.

He suggested this morning that we gave it another go tonight, but i'm not sure I have the energy. What should I do? If I say no, i'm basically saying i've given up aren't I. I just can't take another night of shouting and complete and utter disappointment.

Say no to a night of shouting and getting upset and maybe look at some counselling instead? Could that help you find a way of communicating calmly without arguing and getting upset?

I think you need a mediator.

Dh sound a bit similar to you and I. We're both very emotional, short tempered and 'firey' so arguments quickly escalate. To be honest, you sound in a better place than us. You're having sex! It's good when it happens! (That's more than us). You're trying to talk. You say you love him. I think you're really far from being at the end.

We're now getting some help from another couple, but we would have gone to Relate or another counsellor before giving up. Sounds like your dh is probably a bit depressed and down on himself. None of the things on your list sound terrible or abusive to me - though he obviously needs to tone down his shoutiness. I think it's great that he does calm down when you point out he's being aggressive as this would wind my dh up more. It's a lot easier to talk when there's someone else in the middle to 'translate' for you. Please, please don't give up now. Relationships can get stronger and actually grow when you go through a hard time and get through it. Rather than starting from scratch with someone new and then hitting issues later. Issues will always happen.

Why don't you go out and say that you're finding it hard to talk, but you do really want to give it a good go and you've looked into finding some help. I think Relate are cheap/ free if you're on a low income. Good luck!

Sorry, I meant you and your dh sound similar to me and my dh! Doh.

PS. If he's feeling a bit down about himself and you're bringing up stuff that annoys you/ you don't like, then he will be very defensive, but he's probably taking it in. Unfortunately it may just make him feel worse about himself.

our situation had sent him crazy and he felt like he was on the edge of a break down

Listen to him, as well as talking? It sounds like he's deeply unhappy, and that's affecting how he is with you and DD.