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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Men who buy sex, who they buy and what they know

208 replies

allthequeensmen · 18/02/2012 17:36

Threads relating to strip clubs and the sex industry always seem to attract a lot of attention on here so I thought some of you might be interested in this study:

www.eaves4women.co.uk/Documents/Recent_Reports/Men%20Who%20Buy%20Sex.pdf

OP posts:
takingbackmonday · 20/02/2012 14:14

I find it deeply disturbing that anyone believes a person has a right to sex - disabled or not - especially given the evidence that the vast majority of purchased sex is straightforward rape.

yellowraincoat · 20/02/2012 14:18

But it's something that does happen in other countries, so I don't think there's any need to just dismiss it out of hand.

takingbackmonday · 20/02/2012 14:31

As does FGM, forced marriage and the death penalty. Your point?

yellowraincoat · 20/02/2012 14:37

I really don't get your point, sorry.

takingbackmonday · 20/02/2012 14:47

Cultural relativism is no argument.

allthequeensmen · 20/02/2012 16:23

Not sure why I'm of such interest to you Nyac but er fine..

My view is that the vast majority of prostituion is exploitation and as explored in this thread, even where women DO purport to enter in to prostitution willingly there is a clear link with childhood sexual abuse.

With regards to the punters, I believe the majority to be misogynistic bullies who get off on power and control. In my experience (as a human and as a child protection social worker), men who pay for sex, domestic violence perpetrators and chid sex offenders all fit a similar psychological profile.

Lastly, I am hugely passionate about rights of people with disabilities (sibling has down syndrome and have worked in this area also) but I don't believe for one second that their rights trump that of exploited women. I think many disabled people would share my view.

OP posts:
Notthefullshilling · 20/02/2012 16:39

God almighty will you people learn to read, I have never said anywhere that anyone has a right to expect sex, I have said over and over that it is HUMAN RIGHT contained in both united nations and european union charters for a disabled person to NOT be excluded from the experience of sex. For the last time I am making the point that for some disabled people as a result of the barriers social, attitudunal, and PHYSICLE. The only option is to by sex. Up thread someone suggested a NHS for sex would you have a problem with that?

If I have been rude it is becouse others have been wilffuly ignoring the point s I have made several times choosing to follow a dogmatic agenda that only sees sex workers and those who use sexworkers in a very limited way. To argue that all paid for sex is purchased by men and women who have a choice is wrong. To say that people have a choice is true if you are advocating celabacy, but not enforced celibacy. To make any sweeping statement about anything or any group of people like the purchesers of sex, only leads to crass and stupid statements that end in the rights of one group being held to be greater than another. I would also suggest that women with severe impairements would use the freedom to enjoy sex just as much as men so in trumping the rights of women against disabled men, you deny disabled women the chance to lead a full life.
www.un.org/disabilities/convention/conventionfull.shtml
www.drpetra.co.uk/blog/disabled-peoples-sex-needs-ignored-2/

Notthefullshilling · 20/02/2012 17:05

Allthequeensmen: I am sure you are perfectly correct most, indeed the vast majority of impaired people would never think about let alone condone or be party to the exploitation of others. Try asking them though if they would like to have a sex life, If even a minority answer "yes" how did you move the issue forward apart from to prove what is blatantly obvious?

yellowraincoat · 20/02/2012 17:06

I don't think I said it was takingbackmonday.

allthequeensmen · 20/02/2012 17:43

Notthefullshilling, I'm not sure I claimed to be moving the issue forward.

What we have when one person's rights don't trump another person's rights is a stalemate. If my boyfriend wants to have sex with me but I don't want sex with him.. we just don't have sex. A disabled man has no more right to force a woman to have sex as my DP.

OP posts:
Nyac · 20/02/2012 18:29

Thanks ATQM. It wasn't clear given your tone towards the Poppy Project earlier in this thread who do fantastic and unmatched work in this area.

allthequeensmen · 20/02/2012 18:33

Apologies for any confusion (or offence) caused.

OP posts:
carmenelectra · 20/02/2012 20:30

Going oFf topic here but something I need to point out that noone seems to notice.

People keep banging on about how wrong it is to buy sex and how terrible it is for these sex workers. However, time and time again these women post on heere and other forums how they love what they do and thatthey are not forced into it and they love the sex. I'm getting tired of the whole trafficked/pimped business and all the posers trying to 'outlaw' it!

Let's belive that these women really do like shagging middle aged mfor hundred quid.other peoples cast off's!

SigmundaFraudina · 20/02/2012 20:58

not all sexworkers are forced

BillyBollyBandy · 20/02/2012 20:59

That point was covered by me early on Carmen.Have a look at my posts relating to the amount of abuse suffered by women prior to entry to the sex trade, and also that the average age of entry is 15, and then you will see why I think that vulnerable and damaged people may not be able to make a decision that is best for them.

Instead they may believe they are worth nothing more. Rather a large difference.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 20/02/2012 21:00

From the study linked in the OP:

According to evidence submitted to the UK Government (Home Office, 2004), between 50-75% of women entered prostitution before they were 18, with 15 years being the average age of entry.

In fact, an overwhelming majority of women in all forms of prostitution have been sexually abused as children (Silbert and Pines, 1982a; Nadon et al., 1998). Some estimates are as high as 90%.

Research has shown that there is a 75% rate of current or past homelessness among those prostituted in nine countries (Farley et al., 2003).

There is extensive literature documenting that prostitution causes profound emotional damage (Baldwin, 1992; Barry, 1995; Dworkin, 1997; Herman, 2003; Hoigard and Finstad, 1986; Farley et al., 2003; Raymond et al., 2002).

As a result of sexual exploitation and violence before and during prostitution, women, men and the transgendered in prostitution are known to suffer from depression, traumatic stress and other anxiety disorders, dissociative disorders, eating disorders and others (Farley et al., 2003).

Watts and Zimmerman (2002) at the Department of Public Health and Policy of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine noted that trafficking for prostitution and violence against prostitutes was one of the most common and severe forms of violence against women in the world (2002). A study of 240 women prostituted in Leeds, Edinburgh, and Glasgow found that 26% of women in indoor prostitution had experienced some form of serious violence from the men who had bought them in the past six months (Church et al., 2001).

Studies by Anderson and O?Connell Davidson (2003) and Di Nicola et al (2009) report that most men who buy sex are aware of and have witnessed exploitation, coercion and trafficking but this does not affect their decision to buy sex.

so let's not believe they're all happy hookers, eh?

BillyBollyBandy · 20/02/2012 21:12

You appreciate that there is a difference between trafficked prostitutes and those that are abused and damaged but go into it of their own free will. Albeit that free will being somewhat tainted by either past experiences or an abusive partner?

Of course some people will choose this lifestyle. The overwhelming majority won't. And of course we have no idea what background that blog writer has. Or whether it involved sexual, emotional or physical abuse. Or still does.

Did you read my link that says on average a prostitute will be raped by her pimp 13 times a year and by punters 33 times a year? It would be a very fortuitous sex worker never to be assaulted or raped while performing their job role. Kind of hard to marry that up with the image of someone who is happy in their job don't you think?

BillyBollyBandy · 20/02/2012 21:16

Oh and another point - that blog is for the punters. I'm not sure she would want her "boys" knowing she has a background of incest, or domestic violence, or that she ended up on the game at 14 years old. That wouldn't sit very well with their view of her as a prize to spoil, like a mistress really but without the opinion.

Not saying of course that did happen to her, but you see my point that it is written with self interest in mind. To keep her clients happy by allaying any fears or guilt they have that she doesn't enjoy it. She is allowig them a clear conscience.

SigmundaFraudina · 20/02/2012 21:16

I absolutely did not say they are all happy hookers. I am simply pointing out that they're not all forced or trafficked either.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 20/02/2012 21:25

My response was to carmenelectra who wants us all to 'belive that these women really do like shagging middle aged mfor hundred quid'

What proportion of forced women is OK with you though, and how does the punter tell the difference?

SigmundaFraudina · 20/02/2012 21:29

'What proportion of forced women is OK with you though, and how does the punter tell the difference?'

Absolutely none, and I don't know. Which is why I think legalisation is the way to go, with stringent regs.

BasilRathbone · 20/02/2012 21:36

But legalisation wiht stringent regs has been tried.

And it increases trafficking.

So your stance is illogical.

SigmundaFraudina · 20/02/2012 21:41

The trafficking needs to be dealt with, of course it does. I read that in Amsterdam they realised that there is still a problem with trafficking, and are taking measures to deal with it. Not sure what the measures are but if I dig around enough I could find out probably.

SigmundaFraudina · 20/02/2012 21:43

Legalisation isn't going to protect all sex workers, but they're surely going to be safer than they were before, if it was all underground.

BasilRathbone · 20/02/2012 21:46

No, the experience of legalisation has been that trafficking got worse.

Legalisation has not protected prostituted women. It has opened up the trade and ensured that more women were exploited.

We don't need to speculate as to what will happen if we legalise. We know what happens. More women are forced into prostitution.

We also know tht the Nordic model means fewer women are forced into prostitution.

The reason many people oppose it, is because they are implacably determined to defend men's right to fuck women at any cost to women.