Men who buy sex, who they buy and what they know

[allthequeensmen]

Threads relating to strip clubs and the sex industry always seem to attract a lot of attention on here so I thought some of you might be interested in this study:

www.eaves4women.co.uk/Documents/Recent_Reports/Men%20Who%20Buy%20Sex.pdf

That's interesting, going to read now. Maybe you could post in feminism too?

I have read some questionable things about the Poppy project and the way they operate, as well as their massaging of figures for sex traffiking.

Like where Teeb? Link?

There's an article about it here and here.

I think one of the issues with the poppy project is that they have made it clear they're goal is to eradicate all prostitution within the UK, be that a consensual and considered choice or otherwise. Therefore, it is clearly in their interest to inflate the figures to show the argument that they approve.

I contacted the Poppy Project once when working with a client who had been trafficked and they were certainly very helpful/ knew their stuff. But yes, I read this report feeling it was 'framed' within a certain view. It may not be the greatest piece of empirical research ever but its certainly an interesting read. Some of the men's comments are very revealing.

Oh of course, but then some of the comments I read on mumsnet can be 'revealing' can't they? disagreeing and finding something distasteful is par of the course in all walks of life I should imagine.

I also know of people who have had personal contact with the poppy project, who have been refused help until they agree to give up sex work forever (and turned in their traffickers if they were being trafficked.) It's also worth noting that they have received over £9million between 2007-2009 from public funds, helping on average 87 women a year.

Oh the irony of them putting the onus on the woman to give up sex work when simultaneously espousing that she is probably coerced and exploited!

That's some seriously bad practice, I wonder if they were better behaved with me as a fellow professional as opposed to dealing with the client direct. They would have got short shrift from me if they had tried insisting the client had to turn in the traffickers before receiving help, this would almost certainly have sent my client running underground. Okay in an ideal world it would be great for a criminal case to be brought against the traffickers but my first priority is to the victim's safety and wellbeing.

I absolutely agree that trafickers should be criminally charged severely for what they do. I think though just from my perspective, the problem isn't with prostitution, it's the exploitation of others. I would feel the same way if warehouses were set up in the middle of Southampton and people were exploited into making trainers etc. Although obviously with the additional damage that a sexual assault would bring.

Personally I think a system where the practice was regulated which would enable regular health checks and ensuring anyone within the line of work aren't underage or coerced would be the best system, rather than driving the most vulnerable people underground.

Sorry, I probably sound ranty now but it's something I do feel strongly about!

Countries have legalised prostitution in the past but it does not appear to be successful. Part of the problem is that there will always be people using undeground prostitutes for services that would never be legal, such as children, and also due to them costing less, or the thrill of the forbidden.

Australia

I particularly agree with the point that a culture of prostitution leads to it normalising the behaviour of the "customer", I believe the same when people suggest legalising Class A drugs.

Sweden

The second link shows how Sweden has dealt with prostitution effectively, by

a) criminalizes the buying of sex, and
b) decriminalizes the selling of sex. The novel rationale behind this legislation is clearly stated in the government's literature on the law:

"In Sweden prostitution is regarded as an aspect of male violence against women and children. It is officially acknowledged as a form of exploitation of women and children and constitutes a significant social problem... gender equality will remain unattainable so long as men buy, sell and exploit women and children by prostituting them."

I am looking at the Swedes in a new light. Anyone know why the UK isn't following this lead? Sweden bought this in during 1999.

I have posted a link in Feminism - hope you don't mind OP?

Nope, where ever it will generate discussion is good Billy.

I've always had some trouble with the idea of 'woman = weak, victim, person who will inevitably be exploited' when it comes to discussions about sex work. I accept that there are minorities of people who are coerced into it, which is bad. But I also think there are women who view it as a valid life choice. As well as probably a majority of women who might muddle along with it, just like a woman might muddle along in an office job or working in tesco.

probably not as likely to get raped and beaten up or murdered by your customers in tesco though teeb?

Statistically not, no. I think the way the current legalities are set up offers very little protection to women in this role though. Prostitution in the UK is legal, however working with anyone else, be that another prostitute or someone who would act as security, is illegal. As the law stands now, there are women who are more frightened of the legal implications of reporting any crime than of the men who may possibly take advantage of them, which isn't the kind of society I want to be a part of.

but why do men do it? (beat up, assault, murder prostitutes)

why do they pay for sex at all? the whole thing is a yucky mystery

Very interesting reading. Thank you for posting it

I don't think you perhaps appreciate the link between abuse, sexual abuse in childhood particularly, and prostitution. It isn't a case of women from secure backgrounds making an informed choice. Rather we are talking about women (generally of course) who are already damaged, being taken advantage of by others for financial gain or sexual gratification, or both.

"Estimates of the prevalence of incest among prostitutes range from 65% to 90%. The Council for Prostitution Alternatives, Portland, Oregon Annual Report in 1991 stated that: 85% of prostitute/clients reported history of sexual abuse in childhood; 70% reported incest. The higher percentages (80%-90%) of reports of incest and childhood sexual assaults of prostitutes come from anecdotal reports and from clinicians working with prostitutes (interviews with Nevada psychologists cited by Patricia Murphy, Making the Connections: women, work, and abuse, 1993, Paul M. Deutsch Press, Orlando, Florida;"

"78% of 55 women who sought help from the Council for Prostitution Alternatives in 1991 reported being raped an average of 16 times a year by pimps, and were raped 33 times a year by johns. (Susan Kay Hunter, Council for Prostitution Alternatives Annual Report, 1991, Portland, Oregon) 85% of prostitutes are raped by pimps."

If you follow this link you can see some more general statistics on sex work, not just prostitution. You will see that 88% said they were making a free choice to sex work. However,

• 81% of all the women had been verbally or emotionally abused; ? 69% had experienced domestic violence; ? 42% sexually abused; ? 35% had been raped.

Correlations of abuse experiences showed:
? 92% of the women who had been bullied had also experienced domestic violence;
? 82% of the women who had been sexually abused had also been physically abused;
? 78% of the women who had been raped had also been sexually abused.
Frequency of abuse findings showed that,
? all (100%) of the women who had experienced physical, financial, emotional abuse or
were talked about in front of other as though they were not there said that this had
happened to them more than once;
? 55% of women who had experienced sexual abuse said that this had happened to them
more than once;
? 45% of women who had been raped said that this had happened to them more than

And finally that 79% of the women who had experienced domestic violence had also sex worked.

Therefore I would still argue that while there may be a "choice" involved, that choice is being made by vunerable, damaged and usually abused people - often very young women.

Sorry - I think I should have just linked to article. I may have got a bit over enthusiastic with the figures

Sorry, i'm not sure if i'm perhaps just thinking aloud here in many instances, but I have some what of a personal experience.

I wonder what the statistics would be for women suffering abuse generally, or women who are SAHM's? (no reason to pick them in particular, but just as a group of women what those statistics would show.)

Does past abuse remove personal autonomy?

I would also suggest that the women who are under the spotlight of these statistics and reports are already in contact with agencies that are collating data on prostitution and as I said, have their own view point. As the study you linked to showed, it was a study on 'homeless sex working women' which is an extreme sample of people. Plus the issues becomes clouded when also considering homelessness.

Yes I see what you are saying. I would be surprised though if a study of SAHM's for example, showed over 50% had been victims of incest.

I was looking for studies connecting childhood abuse to prostitution and sex work as it is my understanding that there have been many studies making that link, and I believe it is widely accepted that there is a disproportionate amount of women involved in sex work that have been abused in some way. I just picked 2 studies quickly.

The WHO study on violence towards women would give you a better picture, although not in the UK.

Just a quick quote "The proportion of ever-partnered women who had ever experienced physical or sexual violence, or both, by an intimate partner in their lifetime, ranged from 15% to 71%, with most sites falling between 29% and 62%."

This is still lower than the quotes in the sex worker study above, although I appreciate we are not comparing like with like. However from the WHO report it appears that those women in the poorer countries are those that suffer most, so we SHOULD expect lower rates of abuse generally in the UK.

past abuse makes people, sorry women (but probably all people) vulnerable to revictimisation - obviously any civilized society protects its vulnerable citizens

men don't need to pay for sex with vulnerable women, they can just have a wank instead

the whole industry is vile isn't it?

Well I guess it just shows how easily statistics can be shown to aid every possible angle and perspective. What I find concerning about statistics is the authoritative tone they give across - 'x amount of prostitutes are y' when the reality of the statement is 'x amount out of 12 homeless prostitutes we spoke with are y.'

I don't mean to limit the genuine abuse that does occur, which I agree entirely is absolutely wrong and the victims of those crimes need help and support, while the perpetrators should be punished.

I feel though that those that are working with choice, should also be offered support and validity for their choice. Men shouldn't be able to know that they can get away with violence against these women because they are marginalised and the law/society doesn't want to protect them. Society wants to condemn these women, they decide that it doesn't follow the moral path that they follow and therefore need to be saved.

So have you read the WHO report? I still think you are vastly overestimating those that are making a free choice. There are many, many studies that show this to be the case.

Perhaps you can provide evidence to show how many sex workers are doing so by choice, without any evidence of abuse in their past or present? You referred earlier to past abuse removing personal automony. Of course it doesn't - however, our past will influence our future inextricably.

I agree that society should not marginalise any victim, any vulnerable person in need. I just think there are more of those victims than you do.

Anyway, I am bowing out. I don't feel I can add anymore, I am sure far more knowledgable souls will be around soon.

If anyone wants to ask me anything, fire away. I have worked as a maid for working girls for many years.

*but why do men do it? (beat up, assault, murder prostitutes)

why do they pay for sex at all? the whole thing is a yucky mystery*

1. Because they are sociopaths
2. Because they are selfish bastards who do not see women as proper human beings, but as things there to serve them.