Another one

[Amychanger]

I am a long time lurker.

Long story short, I think or I know H is having an affair. I looked at his telephone records online and discovered he was away in January in a different country to that which he was supposed to be traveling to. H travels a lot with his work.

Since this trip, he has been texting or making calls to this one number which I rang yesterday. Woman answered (surprise, surprise)

He is currently away on another work trip and due back tomorrow.

When I saw the phone records yesterday, I rang him and asked if he had anything to tell me and asked where he was last month. He is insistent he was where he says he was (he doesn't know I've seen the phone records). Keeps asking me what this is about, and then says we can talk about it when he comes home.

I told him I didn't want him to come home for a few weeks, really so I can get my head together.

I think the marriage is over and has been for a long time; and tbh, I suspect he has either been having affairs or emotional affairs as his phone is never available for me to look at but he is always looking at it.

I feel angry and relieved at the same time. Angry that he has finally done what he always professes never to do and relieved that all these years, he was checking his mobile in bed and telling me I was too suspicious and wouldn't trust him, that I can trust my instincts.

Putting this down is cathartic but also gives me the resolve to call time.

My children will be heartbroken and I want to try and keep things as normal as possible for them as there are some major events coming for them in the next 4 months.

Is it possible to not tell them we are splitting up until the summer holidays? Has anyone done this and live this "pretend" life just till we get these events out of the way?

Catsrus is giving you very important advice.

Of all the threads to follow, read Chocoraisin. Now, THAT is the way to behave. There is a very selfish, immature young H out there who is starting to get very frightened...

Please, DO NOT send him nasty emails. He MUST be left like Choc is doing, in the void empty space that is his own soul, to start thinking about what he is losing. And believe me, it is starting to dawn... his house. His children. His own chair and his own space. His memories. His assets. His future. His pension. And, funnily enough, you. He is going to lose you.

YOU MUST STAY CALM and leave him in this space. If you get 'reactive', you will give him a distraction/focus on you. Do you understand this? Cold, calm silence will shit him RIGHT OUT. And the glowing warmth of OW's admiration? Will be fading very fast as he focusses on what he has sacrificed for her loving ***.

FYI, this dawning reality (of what he has done) gave my H serious anxiety attacks and PTSD. He said it was like being on a cliff and one step away from plummeting.

Send us the emails, in a writing the letter/burning them up the chimney exercise. Give us your overwhelming emotions not him, we will look after you.

Now:

1. Short email to H saying you will ONLY meet him in a safe place. Which is a therapists' consulting room. Therapy is like Kryptonite for men with double lives. Search for, and find this marital therapist and book the appointment. If you don't do this you will lose control of the conversation. Please believe me on this! Start jotting down your questions you want him to ask. It is time for him to learn he is not Cock King of the North, or in control of the information. Its called consequences.

1. start photocopying all important documents. Tax returns, utility bills, financial information (do you know the details of your mortgage? Your insurance?), shares, credit cards, etc etc. Hide them in a safe place.

1. When you go shopping, get cash back. Hide this money in a safe place. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

1. If you communicate with him, only do it by email. Ask your questions coldly and calmly. It's in writing, you see? I got lots of useful information. Like, confirmation he was an adulterer, and that he would not be where he is career-wise without me/my support. (Parlour v. Parlour, thank you!) We are still married and trying to reconcile, but I am in control now.

And lastly, this is not the time to make permanent decisions. You are overwhelmed and not in a rational place right now. In fact, where you are right now has been called 'the Hall of Hell'. So, you can when you meet tell him you will let him know your final decision in 3 months time. This is recommended by therapists not Wobbly by the way...

It is astonishing isn't it, how protecting our children overrides every other thing even to not falling apart? We know what love is.

We are here for you, we have trod this road ahead of you and we will help you.

PS sorry to sound so cold about being in control. What I really meant was, my days of taking sh* and blaming myself, are OVER!

Thanks for you comments and PM. Unfortunately, we have been emailing back and forth (BEFORE I got back to reading this thread!)

I have called him selfish, cowardly and pathetic and he admits I am right. I don't think I could do a face to face with him and told him I wanted to deal with it over email (but I didn't want to read details, excuses or explanations - think the time for explanations is past).

I just want to sort out what we tell the kids next week so he can pack and go. And if possible, I will take kids out somewhere so he can get packed up.

Hi Amy...Sorry to hear about what you're going through. Has he actually admitted to anything or does he know that you know about his actual whereabouts on his trip last month? I think i would hold off tellling the kids anything about another woman until he's actually admitted to something...if he doesn't admit to anything, you could possible end up with him spouting constant denial and confusing your DC as to whats happening. You sound like a lovely person, i'm sorry this is happening to you. xx

When I confronted him over the phone, it was all denial and what are you talking about? Then silence for 2 days after I hung up.

In the emails today, he has said he wants to come back and explain everything face to face. I have said I don't want any explanations, I just want him to admit he has done what he has done so I can move on.

He has said something along the lines of "explanation and admission amounts to the same thing" so I am taking that as not a denial and he has said everything I've said about him (all the stuff I've called him) is true and he is not laying the blame on me.

So at this stage, I am taking that as admission of guilt. I alternate between anger and grieve and relief (that I can trust my instincts after all).

So I am not sure I can do any face to face talks. I don't want to hear any explanations, I just want to get down to practical things, what we tell kids, what the living arrangements will be, when kids will see him etc. I know I cannot face seeing him and just need time and space without him and without having to deal with him face to face.

I am so much calmer and rational on email (except for the first couple of emails to him).

See if you can see him in a safe place, ie with a psychologist.

2 reasons: refusing to see him means trying to contain the chaos (because that is what this mess is, chaos. His chaos, running into your life. Divorce, says IC, also contains this. But contained chaos, is it dealt with chaos? 2. for you to accuse, and him to agree, yes I am pathetic selfish etc. kind of lets him off the hook. He is a poor sad little boy, then, isn't he?
Whereas, in that room you can ask some tough questions and HE HAS to answer them.
Also, you will cry. You will cry very much. He needs to look at what he has done.

Subotnik: adulterers are horrified at the pain they have caused, which they never thought about.

Yup. He needs to catch a sharp 'grow up, and face up' wave. He needs to look at himself.

I think the reason I don't want a face to face is because I don't want him to see me crying or hurting. I want to put on my brave strong front and do my crying on my own.

Don't get me wrong, he has seen me crying plenty especially in the last few months and it didn't seem to move him enough to not plan, lie and cheat his way through this trip.

So I don't want to give him the satisfaction of seeing any further hurt on my part. I'm happy to let him feel the anger though!

The other thing - he knows the pain adulterers cause, we have always discussed this and he has always told me he isn't like all these men, he knows what he would lose, living alone in a bedsit, seeing his children at weekends. I have even told him "if you are planning to cheat, tell me first so I can get out".

Oh, dear.

So that's it, then?

good for you amy. listen if you don't feel the need to see him face to face then don't - it's not some game with a rule book to be followed so you can win control - that sounds hellish and dysfunctional to me personally.

could you pack up for him and just deliver his stuff somewhere? you could do it when the kids were out (if they're at school? nursery?) and without having to see him then.

go with what you want and need now though obviously get some legal advice to be sure that you have all you need for divorce and getting your share of the assets.

I will need to see him so we can tell the kids together but that's all I want to do.

I don't really want to pack for him as I am sick and tired of doing everything for him, including raising his kids practically on my own.

Part of me thinks packing his stuff will make him feel the reality of the situation.

I was so full of resolve and have just checked his phone bill again and see he has been texting OW and it's brought me down with a crash.

I need to stop obsessively checking this but this is the only proof I have that he has done what he has, and I am keeping records so if he does attempt the "it wasn't a relationship etc etc" and "I don't have any contact anymore, want to try again" line, I can throw these back in his face.

He really is a useless, cowardly prick face

I want to do the right thing by the DC and wait to tell them when he gets back.

However, I now feel an irrational urge to email his brother and let him know what is happening. Part of this is revenge so his family can see him for the sort of man he is.

But should I do this or wait till we have told DCs before we tell family and friends?

it's up to you amy. i think personally i would struggle to wait quietly with no support till he felt like facing up to things. is there anyone who you can tell who won't tell the children or anyone else you don't want them to but will be there for you and listen and help you work things through in your head?

Hi

I wouldn't tell his family for now, but would tell my family and friends for support. But would tell them as soon as the children know.

I would also advise against showing rage. That is very similar to showing grief.

A dignified hurt or indifference is the best course. Otherwise he can justify his betrayal of that mad woman.

Thank-you, you are right with that comment about mad woman!

I have been emailing myself so I don't vent at him and another MN-er has been very kind with PMs.

Thank-you so much for being a support network in a time when I feel I can't say much in RL yet.

swallowed a fly "it's not some game with a rule book to be followed so you can win control" and that sounding 'dysfuctional' I have found very offensive.

IF you read carefully you will have noticed I advocated any meeting to take place in a place of safety with a neutral third party - a qualified therapist. This is standard advice?. Unless you are better than therapists, who are you to describe a standard recommendation of dealing with/keeping safe two (because he is a human being, too) frightened overwhelmed people who WILL revert to default positions as 'dysfunctional'?

IF you read Amy carefully you will have noticed that she has tried for four years to address issues and he has declined. In other words, she has had no control of her situation. So, to be in a safe place where he is not allowed to dismiss, ignore, turn it back on her [as he has done for the last 4 years]...

please tell me the dysfunction?

I would quite like an apology for that sweeping and insulting dismissal of what I said.

elsewhere on these boards you are encouraging women to stay with violent abusive partners and see it as a control game to be won strategically abitwobbly. that doesn't really position you as a rational source of advice on relationships or someone whose thinking is all that balanced i'm afraid. again on here you're talking like relationships are a game of chess to be won with a set of rules to follow. authentic living isn't like that - someone is hurt, they feel and they need to do what is right for them not follow some script to come out on top and in control. your strategy here is influenced by your own circumstances and agenda - which is to stay with someone no matter how badly they treat you and pretend you're in control and winning.

and yes it sounds dysfunctional.

incidentally lots of people have asked you questions and talked to you on your thread - maybe you could return to it and respond?

H emailed saying he needed to come home to talk and I emailed back saying time to talk with me is over and I just want to discuss practical arrangements over the next 4 months, including access and financial arrangements during this time.

He obviously doesn't like what he is reading as all his emails till now has been about how sorry he has been but the latest email is all about what he wants re: access but I am really angry that he is now telling me not to assume I can take the children back to the UK this summer (for good).

I do not want to stay here with the lying cheating bastard, I have a good school lined up for DC, which we had been discussing as an option for months.

I need a controlled response as the return missive I have drafted is far too emotional and angry.

i'm not sure where you are but it sounds like you desperately need legal advice to find out where you stand with regard to being able to come home with the children. there was a woman on here the other day who was in australia and despite her husband cheating on her and abandoning her and not being australian herself it was ruled she couldn't take dc out of the country till they were 16 or 18 (can't remember the age). she hadn't even been living there long, had conceived here but given birth there.

time to get some advice.

i'd try to angle your emails in such a way to get him to confirm in writing that this has been the plan for some time, that a school is lined up and it had already been decided that you'd be moving back this summer. also to be sure he's put in writing that he has cheated on you.

i'm so sorry you're going through this. can you give us a rough idea of where in the world you are?

i'd be tempted to come home now tbh but find out where you stand legally first obviously but i would be tempted to get myself back under my home jurisdiction and legal system with the children asap.

It's worth getting some legal advice as soon as you can, if you are in Australia for e.g you will not be able to take the DC back to the UK without his consent (I think it's the Hague Convention). It might be the same anywhere.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. Be kind to yourself, there are no set rules to follow at these times. Is there anyone at all you can tell irl? Online support can be great, but a real hug & support at these times is even better.

swallowafly I took legal advice recently as thought my DH was going to walk out on us to go to Australia, solicitor told me that even if I'd agreed to go and changed my mind the courts wouldn't see it that way (regardless of any 'evidence' DH might have) as I'd still be in the UK and he wouldn't. I think OP really needs to get the right legal advice before doing anything, things could get quite nasty for her if she rushes back to the UK - though I'm sure it would be a very natural instinct to do so. Very hard to be away from home at this time :(

Amy, if you can bear it, don't reply to that email at all, or just something non committal like you'll contact him when you're ready to. Don't mention coming back to the Uk and make yourself an appointment with a solicitor.

100% sure that solicitor is the next step you need to take. you need to know exactly where you stand in order to formulate any plans.

ikwym muffin - but if it was aus for example then by staying she would definitely lose the right to leave but by leaving and being here the british legal system would be involved too and there would at least be a chance of fighting it.

the father's rights issue goes mad when it means that women cheated on and/or abused by men away from their home country cannot actually leave and return to their homes and their families for the support they need to cope with what has happened and to raise their children as a single woman. he can destroy his marriage, break his vows and leave the woman in a complete financial and social nightmare by doing so but also exercise the law to ensure she can't leave. it's scary stuff imo.

You have had some great advice & support here but I do agree you need some RL support. He sounds very controlling.