Please help me stop enabling my father's behaviour

[NeedsASpine]

I need the wisdom of you mumsnetters who actually are grown ups and have more backbone than me. I'm sorry, I've namechanged as the following makes me pretty recognisable and I'd rather keep it seperate from my usual, more cheerful persona. This is going to be long and its taken a lot of courage for me to post this, as the circumstances are fairly unique and I'm frightened people will not believe me.

I've been having problems with my Dad using me as an emotional leaning post for a few years now. He rings me every day and tells me all his woes and it's really getting me down. I'll start with a little background if that's ok.

I had quite a nice childhood really, my parents gave me and my brother lots of emotional support, we both felt loved and we never went without, materially. When we were teenagers it became apparent that my Dad had depression. My brother and I were pretty well 'protected' from it for want of a better word. It's not something that was ever discussed really and my Mum was the one who tried to support us all. Dad started drinking heavily. He would have several glasses of wine with tea then stay up late drinking before eventually falling into bed beside my Mum at 3am every night. We were aware of it happening but we are all guilty of burying our heads in the sand and hoping he would get better. He was never violent or innappropriate, he would just quietly fall down drunk.

My Dad has always said that me and him have a 'special bond', and that I was 'on his wavelength'. He has always favoured my company to my brother, but was not quite so obvious about it when we were younger. My Mum has always been very equal. He started confiding small things in me about his emotions and what worried him. This has grown really gradually over time. I've alwas been more of a softie than my brother, so I would listen to him because I felt sorry for him and wanted to make him feel better.

Time passed, I met DH, moved out and got married. I remained close to both my parents and we would go most weeks for Sunday dinner. One Sunday my Dad asked me to go to the shops with him. He was very uptight and tearful. On the way there I was obviously concerned about him and asked him a few times what was wrong. He (after very little probing) told me he was having an affair and that he was going to leave my Mum. I realise now he very deliberatley set out to tell me that day, and wanted to unburden himself to me, without considering my feelings. I was very shocked, and asked him to at least talk to my Mum about what was happening. I'm very ashamed to admit I didn't shout at him, I even gave him a hug because he was upset

What made it even more horrible was that my brother was getting married two weeks later. My Dad begged me not to say anything because he 'didn't want to spoil the wedding'. I agreed for my brother's sake, and spent truly the most awful two weeks of my life hiding this awful secret from my family. I thought my Mum and Brother would never speak to me again, that they would think I thought it was ok for him to do it, and that everyone would judge me for holding this secret (I still do worry about that last one). I couldn't even tell DH because he loves my Mum very much, I knew he would react (understandably) badly and not be able to keep his thoughts (and possibly fists) to himself. The wedding was awful. Not obviously for my family, but for me to watch my mother, so proud and happy, and my Dad, who in a fit of selfishness, insisted on doing a reading in the church about the wonders of love. I was the only one in that church who knew he wasn't talking about my Mum.

I'm sorry this is so long, I just need to keep typing.

The day after the wedding I met up with my best friend. I couldn't keep it to myself and had a bit of a breakdown. She was horrified and urged me to talk to DH. I did, it was awful. He'd known something was up, and was waiting for me to tell him when I was ready. I rang my Dad in tears about the whole thing, and he told me very calmly that it would all be ok and that he didn't regret telling me. I realise now that he must've been drunk at the time.

It took him a week to tell my mum. My brother was away on honeymoon and was blissfully ignorant. My mum was devastated, didn't have a clue and didn't want him to leave. It was awful, he left, then came back, then left again. I had to take time off work to look after my mum, and we also got a lot of support from my mum's brother and nan. One of the first things my mum asked me was 'did I know?'. That has got to be the second most awful time of my life. I started to cry and begged for her forgiveness. She was absolutely horrified that he had done that to me, as was the rest of our family. They were wonderful with me, but it's still something I find very painful to discuss and still feel so guilty about it.

My brother came back from honeymoon and was told all about it the next day. Obviously he was very upset aswell and helped me to support our mum.

My dad eventually left and moved in for good with the other woman. We didn't speak for a long time and to be honest it was a relief. I grew very close to my mum in this period and can honestly say if one positive thing came of the whole thing was that we have an even deeper relationship than before.

Fast forward a couple of years, my mum has moved on successfully and has remarried now. My Dad, after a bit of leg work on his part and a lot of forgivness on mine and DB's has re-established a relationship with us. He stayed with TOW, who was diagnosed with cancer early on in their relationship. They got married, he nursed he through ill health and unfortunately she died last year. I do genuinley mean this, she did a bad thing being TOW (although was fed a few lies about my mother's behaviour which I soon corrected) but no-one deserves the end to life that she had.

I'm really sorry for the length, it's theraputic to write this and I undefstand anyone who wants to give up at this point!

Whilst TOW was unwell and dealing with her cancer, I was having rather a bad year myself. I had my lovely DD, who was (and is) wonderful in every way. Unfortunately I think the traumas of the year before caught up with me and I sank into deep PND. I tried to go back to work, but ended up on long term sick, and finally got 'let go' from my job due to ill health. DP and I went through a very rough patch, but fortunately now are stronger than ever. I got lots of support from my HV and from my mum and extended family. I didn't bother my Dad too much with my problems because he was dealing with a dying wife, and plus whenever I did talk to him about it he often ended up talking about his depression and how difficult he found it to cope.

After losing my job, DH and I ended up having to go bankrupt, I couldn't find another employer willing to take me on and we couldn't pay the bills. Going to court that day was a terrifying experience. Since then I've been a SAHM, and DH and I have found ourselves expecting another baby (despite using contraception). At first I was horrified, but when it looked like I was miscarrying it suddenly dawned on me what a blessing and a gift this baby was. We went through three terrifying weeks of scans and bleeding but our baby remained safe. I'm now well into the third trimester of my pregnancy.

Now I'm getting to the present! My main issue now is that ever since TOW died, my Dad has reverted to using me as his confessor. He rings me every night and tells me how bad he is feeling. He asked me to escort him to his GPs appts and to see the psychiatrist because he couldn't face going alone. I'm an idiot and I agreed I can't get away from the fact that he's widowed and lonely. He is still young (in his 50's) is retired (due to depresdion) and on a very decent pension (I know all the ins and outs of his financial situation because, well, he tells me!) He also can drive and owns two cars so he is not isolated. The only family he has is me and my brother.

His favouritism of me over my brother remains. He very rarely speaks to my brother, and never travels the short distance to visit him. My DB gets upset about this sometimes, although doesn't really discuss it with me (my SIL tells me instead) He never rings my brother to unburden himself, only me. He tells me about his deep thoughts, how he feels nervous going out and how much he hates TOW's kids (who are in their early twenties, have never known their father and habe now lost their mother who they loved very much). What is frustrating is that he obviously feels ok when it suits him. He has dated several women in the few months his wife has been dead, and been abroad on holiday twice. He also has made quite a few friends at his local restaurants, and eats out most nights to mix with other locals in his town. I recognise that (most of) these things are good things, and that it's good for him to get out and about. The frustrating thing is that then he calls me, tells me how awful he is to be dating again, how he's not ready, then goes out and does the same thing again. I've never passed judgement to him about the dating, told him their was no particular time line for grief, and he's agreed with me and said he would take himself off the dating website, then a week later he will be ringing me in tears about a lovely woman he's been out with but how guilty he feels (again)

When he calls, he never ever asks how I am. Ever. He never asks about my pregnancy, never asks about my wellbeing. The only thing he does ask is about my bills, and has given us money on occassion which u fortunately I can't seem to say no to. I hate that every night I have to listen to him, that it's completely one sided. I hate that I tiptoe around his feelings, never say what I really think. Mostly I hate myself for enabling this behaviour. I keep feeling sorry for him, being alone and widowed, having made a big giant mess of his life. He never visits, expect me to go up to him all the time. Never takes much interest in DD, other than buying her expensive presents occasionally (she is 2, she is unaware of this and barely knows who he is)

It's starting to really affect me. I can't stand being his constant means of support. He sees a councellor, and his GP on a regular basis. He is on meds and is now under the care of a psychiatrist. He has had a lot of help in the past 15 from the health service but unfortunately has never improved. I'm not qualified to make him better, and I'd really rather step back from the whole thing.

I know him well, if I was to confront him on this he would cry and put on his spoilt child voice about how he never intended to make me feel that way and that he loves me. Then he would behave for about a month and then start slipping into old habits again. I can't face the thought of falling out, my life has been very stressful and dramatic these past few years, I want no more. I want to wait excitedly for my new baby, cuddle my lovely family and pray very hard the PND doesn't strike again.

I don't know how to extract myself from the situation. I don't know how to stop him confessing all in me without having a major fall out or leaving him completely alone in the world.

I'm fed up and so is my family. They know how much he uses me. They hate him for doing it but they are also getting impatient with me for allowing it (then getting upset and crying and all of their shoulders) I just don't know how

That is extremely long I'm sorry

Wow I really don't know how you go about creating a healthy barrier in that situation, I really hope someone else comes along

I don't have any experience dealing with anything like this, but could you try to have an honest chat with him, saying that you are worried he is becoming too dependent on you?

The big hook for this could be your explananation that obviously as soon as you give birth to the new baby it is going to be impossible to have a five-minute phone call without being interrupted, let alone long daily heart-to-hearts, and accompanying him to appointments etc.

By the sound of it, last time you had a new baby he was otherwise preoccupied, so he might need this pointing out, particularly since he sounds incredibly self-centred. But of course he may be so self-centred and narcissistic that he won't be able to accept that your children must take priority, in which case a major fall-out may be unavoidable.

If you can successfully use the baby as an excuse to withdraw now, you will then just need to avoid getting sucked in again when he or she is bigger.

BTW I am a widow with two children and have never felt the need to use anyone as an emotional crutch in this way, even in the early days - yes, he is still grieving, but it looks to me like that is just an excuse for his behaviour.

I know that it may not be a cure-all, but have you thought of having some counselling so that you can establish a better boundary between you?

There are so many layers to this. You poor thing.

To start with an easy one to solve that will make a big difference to you: the nightly phone calls.

Get an answer machine, and put pleasant 'Can't come to the phone right now' message on it, and use it; and make sure he has a mobile phone and knows how to text. My father knows it's impossible for me to gab to him every night; but sometimes we might leave each other a quick voicemail or send a text. That is normal and acceptable. And my dad's elderly. Yours is in his 50s.

Needsaspine

First of all what you need to do when he puts on his 'spoilt child' voice is to mimic it back at him. You are his child. He is the .

He sounds pretty toxic to be fair. The answer machine and being too busy both sound like good stratagies in the short term. In the long term, looking at finding a therapist or someone along those lines in order to help you build healthy boundaries would be a good thing.
He isn't going to change, that much is obvious, so in order for your relationship with him to change, you will have to be proactive. Which is where the expert help comes in.

My Mum went through 6 years of grieving when my Dad died. Similar to your Dad she suffers from depression. She often phoned me drunk, sometimes at work. Actually having a baby is brilliant for this. If at any time when she calls me I feel I've had enough I just say "Got to go, baby's crying." DS2 is now a year old and she has moved on, got a new boyfriend and stopped calling so often. I actually never had a conversation with her about stepping back - it just happened naturally. Good luck!

I really feel for you, needaspine. So much of what you have said resonates with me. Your Dad sounds similar in many ways to mine- an alcoholic, the needy conversations where he dumps all his emotional crap on you so he can feel better not caring how it affects you, total self absorption and more.

It's good you're fed up as this means you are ready to change how you deal with him into something more healthy for you.

For me, the non confrontational approach worked best. Not only did I use the baby as an excuse to cut the phone conversation short, like somanymiles, I also let what he was saying wash over me and gave non-committal replies- tried to sound a little bit bored, or I'd say something about the baby (he wasn't interested, of course, but it would derail him mid moan).

Think of having an invisible shield which his words bounce off and don't affect you.

I'd had a lifetime of being my dad's emotional dumping ground, but in what felt like quite a short time, it all stopped. I can deal with him much better now and I'm not angry with him all the time for being like that.

Thank you all for taking the time to read my mammoth post and respond! I felt really anxious after posting it, and found it really hard to sleep last night.

I often lurk on the 'toxic parent' type threads, I can see so many similarities. I'm glad I'm not the only ones with father troubles (IYSWIM?) because most people seem to have these issues with their mothers, and a lot of the books out there seem to be related to mother/daughter issues rather than father/daughter.

I do sometimes use DD as an excuse to get away from the phone, I don't know why I don't do it more often. As for not answering, I've done it a couple of times and he's become a bit 'stalkerish' on me. For instance a couple of weeks ago my mum looked after DD for us and DH and I went out for a quiet drink. When we got home there were two answerphone messages on my machine, and then a frantic text wanting to know if I was ok. I rang him and said where we'd been. He was relieved and said he was worried. I found it really stifling to be honest that I can't go out for a quiet evening with my husband without my dad worrying about me like I'm a teenager.

I'm getting frustrated at myself for rolling over and allowing this behaviour. If it was someone else telling me about this I'd wonder why on earth they hadn't put their father in his place

If you genuinely want it to stop, an easy solution is to ask your DH to put him in his place for you. I'm assuming he knows about this?

However, 2 problems with doing this:

1. It doesn't solve the issue that you feel unable to confront people in a healthy, normal manner (I may be way off the mark with this, as it may be you can say no to everyone else but just not your dad as it's been going on for so long, but worth thinking about)

1. Expect your dad to moan to anyone who will listen about what a controlling arse your DH is. However, it doesn't sound like he has too much sway with your family anyway, and if you are concerned get in there first- "hey [relative], just to let you know I've decided I can't stand Dad's behaviour to me any more so I've asked DH to have a chat to him about it on thursday because I feel like I can't"

Telling him outright will be far more effective than using the baby as an excuse IMO. But if you can't tell him outright, then "baby's crying" will have to do!

I understand where you're coming from. You're getting there, though. You want the pattern of behaviour between you and your Dad to change. And you can do it. You can!

Congratulations on your pregnancy, btw.

I lurk on the Toxic parent threads, too and there has been great advice and support offered. I hope you get some more posting here soon.

He needs to stop drinking. Drunk people go on and on and on, often nonsensically and think they are interesting and insightful, when usually they are rambling and self centred.

Also drinking if he has diagnosed depression is obviously a big no no.

I agree that by stopping the nightly calls, he will have to sort out another rod of support. You aren't actually helping him, even though he thinks you are iyswim?

I do feel for you. My father, although his actions are not like you father's, has severe clinical depression and feels he can confide in me. It can feel like a huge weight to carry around.

OP, You'll not 'phone train' him overnight, for sure. But you can gradually make it more appropriate.

These are the kinds of texts that I send my dad, which I think are fine and which he seems to think are fine (so fairly normal, then):

Hi dad, I'm out this evening but hope to catch up with for quick chat maybe tomorrow?

Dad I have long day at work today so will be putting answerphone on and having early night. Just so you know!

It'll still take time but you'll gently be putting those boundaries in place. If he still keeps fussing on and leaving messages about fake emergencies or imagined issues, you will have to start to ignore them. And if he raises it with you, you simply say that you didn't think it sounded that urgent.

I also like the idea of your DH having a word.

oh yes, my dad was similar in using me as emotional crutch and dumping ground, though not so stifling. i used to say he forgot all about me like an object on a back shelf, until he had a use for me and took me down.

its awful for you. as the children we feel obligated and like we must come through for them, to honor our relation to them as our parent and show we care and respect them etc.
then there is the financial help aspect.
you are, as they say, enmeshed. it is not a simple fix, but will be in phases to work yourself out of the net. so dont give up in the middle stages, or at seeming setbacks. everything that happens educates your subsequent efforts.

it is paramount that you reserve your energies for the real baby, and not the emotional vampire. like a vampire, your dad can call and knock, but it is you who lets him in. so you need to be aware of what is outside your door, trying to get in, every time. voicemail is invaluable.

your sympathy, guilt, obligation and ties like money and other subtle family dynamics are working against you, clearly. but you are not wrong to take charge of yourself. you will be cleaning up your relations, straightening them and sorting them. otherwise, mr. selfish emotional disaster area will keep using you as his rubbish tip, which will eventually make you angry when you can really feel how ecploited you are, and you are. the affair divulgence story is really awful.

i really needed and benefitted hugely from working with a counselor. changed my life, learned incredible life skills id no idea of. also read lots of books. the process was sort of amazing as it freed up huge amounts of mental, emotional and physical energy that somehow seemed to have all been going to support my dad and other lesser energy drains, as it was the only way i knew jow to be.

honestly having real babies is soo much easier and more rewarding.

am on a mobile which makes typing hard, so please forgive.

what about your mum, op? is she wise as to her ex, and might she have insight to offer? i realize it often is not the case.

you can do this. he is incredibly needy, but look at the real facts. he meets his own needs first, last and always, and he always will. i wouldnt spare a thought for confrontation, obviously would play into his whole thing. he is dating, travelling, socializing, has all this medical support. really, he is well supplied. hes just an emotional vampire and you absolutely must stop him leeching you. it is Bad For You.

i am sure you can do this and are in the right to do it. best wishes, op.

OP I lurk on toxic parents too. This sounds awful.
Your father is not and never has been a father to you. He has inappropriately used you as a friend/confidante. He breached the boundaries between parent and child and it sounds as if you have therefore never been able to learn how to keep distance between you.
He is using you fgs.
He created a 'special bond' between you as a child where you had to carry his emotions.
He rings you when he doesnt have another woman to hang out of.
He stalks you when you dont immediately return his phone calls.
He dumped news of his betrayal of your mother on you...allowing him to carry on a facade at your brother's wedding.
He keeps you on a hook by providing you with financial support (instead of the loving support you were entitled to as a child). No doubt if you stand up for yourself, the financial support will be withdrawn.

I am not judging you. I can see it because I had to go through something like this. I found counselling good. My counsellor recommended 'Co-dependancy' by Melanie Beatty. First time I read it I thought it wasn't for me and the counsellor had made a mistake. But it was actually all about me.
Well done on taking the first step-recognising there is a problem. you have it within you to make this better for you (though you cant fix your dad)

I've only skim-read your post because I have a very similar situation of role reversal going on with my mum and I've been thinking about it a lot recently. So this thread is a bit near to the mark :) But I just wanted to mention the phrase "emotional incest". I have a book with this title which I'm slowly working my way through, and a lot of it is hitting home. I hadn't heard of the notion of emotional incest until recently and wish I had years ago, so I just thought I'd put that out there in case some googling is helpful to you. I'm pretty sure the book I have is this one.
Take care.

Thank you all again for taking the time to reply. A lot of what is being said makes perfect sense. HepHep I'm going to order that book, I looked at the first pages on the Amazon preview and it looks very relevant, as others have said, I feel like his wife that he unloads to every night.

DH answered the phone to him last night (we've got caller ID in place just for him) He didn't exactly follow the script we'd agreed on but that's more because he's a terrible liar He told my Dad I was out having some R&R, but to be fair he did say very clearly to my Dad that I was tired and emotional at the moment. We thought that would be it for the night but he rang back a few hours later, obviously hoping I would be 'back' from my trip out. Stupid me answered the phone. He just had to tell me about his day, how anxious he'd felt and how worked up he's been getting recently. We have the same conversation every day where I reassure him. I say the same thing every day because I don't know what else to say, I'm not a trained counsellor after all.

Once again he didn't take on board what DH said to him. He never asked what was bothering me, or how I was feeling. More the fool me really for not saying 'Hey Dad, why do you never ask how I'm doing?' or 'Hey Dad, did it ever occur to you I'm about to have a baby? Do you want to ask me how that feels? Did it ever occur to you I may be shitting myself over getting PND again?'

I get so annoyed with myself for avoiding the confrontation. I do tend to avoid confrontation all the time. I've alway had the problem of wanting everyone to be my friend and like me. Really backfired with my Dad, didn't it?

It's ok, it's just going to take time. You'll take small steps, but when you look back in a few months, you'll be amazed at how far you've come.
FWIW, I have always had this problem of always wanting people to like me. In my case, i think it comes from a childhood of not feeling loved unconditionally by my parents.

Next time he phones, try to detach. Try leaving silences or sound a bit distracted rather than giving reassurance- see if he notices. Be prepared mentally before you pick up the phone. Put your shield up.
To start with it will be easy to fall back into old habits, but just keep at it.

I'm not a therapist but I think a therapist would want to explore why you answered the phone when it rang for the second time last night. It was obvious it was going to be your dad. So what drove you to answer it?
And a second thing I think a therapist might explore is why you continue to hope that your dad will ask about you and your pg etc. He is clearly never going to change and never going to do that. So your energy has to move on from "why doesn't he ask about me?" to "how can I manage this selfish man in a way which protects my sanity, which is so important not only for me but also my marriage and my child and child-to-come".
You sound so lovely but you must protect yourself first and foremost.

Needaspine if you want this to stop you have to stop! You started off so well letting your DH handle it - then went and spoke to him.

You were out for the evening then got a frantic text. You could have text back and said "I'm fine. I was out. Goodnight". But you phoned him.

Maybe it's a habit, maybe you're just programmed for it after all these years? I sympathise, I feel so sorry for you, for your dh for all of you really. Depression (as you will now know having suffered from it) is a very selfish illness. But sometimes, I honestly think, people use it as an excuse for any sort of behaviour they want to engage in! I really do!

Please be good to yourself. You've been through enough! STOP answering the phone. Let DH do it. Let him tell your dad to phone back tomorrow. If he phones later that same evening, let dh give him the same message. It won't solve the issues but it will give you a break !!!

Some people are nurtured by their relationships with their parents; some people survive them; and an awful lot of people are in the middle trying to manage them.

You can manage this, but not until you get over this habit you have of trying to please your dad whilst displeasing yourself.

Why did you pick up the phone? Why not let the machine pick up? (And send him a text saying, I'm fine but in bed about to sleep. Speak tomorrow.)

I agree with the other posters that you need to give yourself a break.

opted out of relationship with similar dad after the birth of my daughter.It cut me to the bone that he had so little interest in us but yet expected so much.
Still struggle after 2 yrs but I had to do it as I was anxious and cross all the time I interacted with him.
He has since moved on to other siblings he didn't really bother with before. Some feel empowered by being the new favourite which has been a stress too as I feel so unsupported by them.
He will be the cause of a family rift and won't care once someone is meeting his needs.
When I told him to only call if he wasn't looking for anything he hasn't called since.
I really do feel your pain. Im already in mourning for my dad ...........its not easy to walk away.

crje, That is so bloody sad. Is your dad a drinker, too?

Hope you and OP are ok.