Just told DP I don't want him to come on holiday with us.

[horsetowater]

It's just too stressful. Every holiday is tainted with big rows, either up a mountainside, in a hot city, frequently while looking for somewhere to eat, while lost in a hire car. This may be normal for many people, but our rows are the kind that make my heart beat faster and the kids go very quiet - it's not worth it.

We are already sleeping in separate rooms and this is another step in the path I am taking after 25 years to extricate his aggressive behaviour from my life. The 'separation' has been going on for 5 years but this is not a lot of time considering we have been together for so long.

The kids miss him when we do this, and I do to a certain extent, but I consider it's a worthwhile sacrifice for the sake of a peaceful, if slightly less interesting, holiday.

Or should I just 'make it work' for the sake of the children? Anyone else enjoy single parent holidays?

So you're already separated? A logical step imo, enjoy the holiday. Seems like the kids would be happier without the stress anyway.

Well done, horse.

Well done. This is a quiet but a BIG boundary.

And it gives him a choice: he can change his behaviour, or he can lose his family. Doesn't get simpler than that.

Have you told him? How will he take it?

our rows are the kind that make my heart beat faster and the kids go very quiet

Staying together and exposing them to behaviour that frightens them - and which they may well model in their own adulthood - will be far more damaging to them than "staying together for the sake of the children".

wait, that made no sense: I meant staying together will be worse for your children than separating from your H for real.

I was half expecting people to come back with 'oh that's normal, we always have big rows on holiday'. To me it was normal when I grew up, those rows and that tension. And I've found I'm normalising it. Hell, even the friends I choose seem to have partners with the same traits of creating an 'atmosphere'. And I stand by them, and they by me, in our sad attempts at keeping it together.

Of course you're right Hotdamn, it is damaging although I have always debriefed them about how this is not normal and not acceptable, but it's not enough I know.

wobbly thank you. He was his usual angry defensive self when I told him. Last time we went alone and he accepted it - we were in counselling and on the edge. He obvs thinks that things are back to normal now so his reaction was kind of 'oh fuck I didn't expect that, I thought I'd got away with it' (subtext not quote). 'so I'm going to show her that I don't care and that it's all her fault anyway'.

Talk about living with the enemy.

If you are already living seperate lives then go alone on the holiday. Enjoy your time instead of dealing with a psycho.

He was his usual angry defensive self when I told him. Last time we went alone and he accepted it - we were in counselling and on the edge. He obvs thinks that things are back to normal now so his reaction was kind of 'oh fuck I didn't expect that, I thought I'd got away with it' (subtext not quote). 'so I'm going to show her that I don't care and that it's all her fault anyway'.

for you. How long has this been going on? How long have you been in negotiations with him to improve matters? How much longer can you hold out?

Totally understand the normalising. I too had similar parents, and a similar marriage: you unconsciously repeat the patterns you know.

But you can also consciously break out of that pattern.

You're so doing the right thing, going without him, Horse. You will have a fab time.

Go for it. I had a holiday with my kids very soon after stbx left. It was a defining moment in realising we were all better off without him and his controlling aggressive and quite frankly spoilt brat behaviour. We were all happy and relaxed and everything was decided by cheerful negotiation.

I think you will all find that you miss him less than you imagine and the bits you miss will be the bad bits anyway.

Sounds wonderful!

I have actually told someone in RL which was cathartic, and then also told him - giving the clear reason that 'it's too stressful' helped. There's just no arguing with that one.

Hotdamn - how long has this been going on? Since we first met 25 years ago. Very soon after there would be these conflicts that I would rationalise and find a way to get round. I'm quite a resilient person and good at adapting, always see the other view. I think if I were weaker I would have walked right at the beginning.

I realise that I'm not tough any more, older, wiser but also weary. I have finally realised that I shouldn't have to be fighting to preserve my self-respect all the time.

The trouble is as lives get busier, kids, work, aged parents, dying relatives, redundancy and all the other sh*t life throws at you, you can't just go 'I won't have anything to do with you now, your behaviour is out of order and I'm not going to play any more' - while writing this, I'm talking to him across the room about the size of shelf for the hall, the fine we have to pay, MILs birthday do, etc.

The emotion after the row has to be 'shelved' while real life carries on - that's how it's gone on for so long I guess. And my hesitancy to make changes now is being compounded as the dcs are teens and can't deal with major upheaval. Leaving is my call and I need to know for sure that when it happens they won't notice it too much.

In many ways things are taking their natural course as we are doing more things without him and I now don't expect him to do anything for dcs or for me any more.

Going on holiday without him is good for you all but its a small part of an overall unhappy relationship picture isn't it?.

What do you get out of this relationship now with this man?. You are both residing in the same house.

How long will it take you now to fully extricate yourself from this man, none of the obstacles you cite are insurmountable. Another five years of all this will completely destroy you - and your children - emotionally.

I think your children have and are already noticing how unhappy you are and perhaps even wonder why you have put Mr Angry Partner before them. That unhappy thought is not beyond the realms of possibility here. You tell them that rows etc and the way he treats you is not acceptable but you are still there. They see and pick up on all the unspoken unhappiness between the two of you; they likely wonder why you are now together at all. You've normalised all this at great cost to you and your children.

What are the two of you teaching these young people about relationships?. What lessons do you want to teach them about relationships?. You yourself learnt damaging relationship lessons when you were growing up and this horrid pattern is being repeated with them this time around. Its them I feel the most for.

'The 'separation' has been going on for 5 years but this is not a lot of time considering we have been together for so long.'

But that's a huge amount of time! You've basically extended your unhappy marriage by 25%.

You seem to think there will be some perfect time to split up, that there will be some point in time where there is not a lot going on and where the DC will not be too upset about it.

You don't want to upset them while they're teens. Then they'll be at uni and you won't want to disturb their studies.

Believe me, whenever you do this, it will be difficult for them. But the least you can do is minimise the number of years they have to live with an obviously dysfunctional, unhappy and stressful family setup.

I'm sorry if this is harsh but I think all your normalising has given you a pretty deep sense of denial.

well you can try and make it a slide into a split - but i think it may be wrong to assume that the DC wont notice it later...they may just resent you for not taking the step earlier on and giving them a [two] peaceful home[s] to live in.

i did many single parent holidays wihtout nowexP he found them stresful and made excuses to not come when it was with my family...over time i reduced time i spent with him on holidays eg visitng his family as it was always too stressful... now of course no question of it being apart and is far better for it.

it is interesting that you thought it was "weaker" to walk away and stronger to stay?

have you had any individual counselling to talk over all this?

you already in separate rooms - are you still rowing though?
what stops making compete break?

i do get it in a way - i kinda thought that over time we would do more stuff apart anyway, once Dc grew up it would naturally end in separate lives... "fortunately" /ironically/serendipitiosly he had major MH breakdown and blew up, triggering an enforced separation as he was so out of it he could not cope with life and was agressive and violent....

during that break it was talking to a counsellor who asked where did i see myself five, ten years down the line and like you i said "not together" it would naturally die out...but she asked - why wait? why stay together now if you know you cant/wont stay together long term? it took someone asking the question to make me think and see....

the conclusion was obvious. (of course it wasn't so simple to leave - he got agressive over that refusing to believe it was happeneing) but that is another story)

i think you doing your DC a disservice by staying together in this way, unless there is full openess and disclosure to all espec the DC and especially as they are teens; and maybe it is made clear to all that you and H agreeing to live as flatmates etcetc. perhaps you have a big house and it makes sense i dont know. perhaps you live in ahrmony a separted people - but you hint at rows etc -surely they dont just happen on hoilidays?

but dont assume the DC are ok with it.... and that they will be ok if you hang on in "for their sake" or wont be traumatised later on knowing you stayed "for them" .

Horse,
I am luckily happily married at present but grew up with the warring parents. There will never be a good time to split. Never ever ever. DSis had nothing to do with either of my parents and their relationship has had a huge impact on both of our mental health and coping mechanisms.
Enjoy your holiday and speak to your children.
They might be more accepting of a split than you imagine.

I have brought separation into discussion with the oldest. She is very quiet about everything and passive, so I have to really coax out of her what she thinks but have to tread a delicate path so as not to think that it is in any way her fault. So I talk about the behaviour not the person. I tell them that we see the counselor to try to stop us from arguing, we are going away separately so that there aren't so many arguments, they know why things are the way they are. I am very open and honest. The arguing is fairly open too. It's one stage better from my own parents situation where my mother said nothing and let my father treat her like dirt - I think that was worse.

Arguing happens whenever there is a conflict - conflict can happen any time, like taking a different turn on a route. Him: 'What do you go this way for? See it's bloody packed!' or 'you could have pulled out, there' - me:'advising me how to drive won't help' or 'what button are you pressing - what are you doing?' me: 'can you speak a bit quieter please'. The way he speaks is aggressive and negative. Other people don't speak like that to me.

We have a normal sized house, living apart together seems to be what we are doing now but will hopefully be temporary. We live in London so any split would mean a poky flat above a shop or in a tower block and I have to weigh that up too.

We can tick over as long as we don't talk about anything that matters. So we can talk about the news, the neighbours, the merits of matt vs. silk paint, with ease but if there is any expectation or duty involved, whether it's taking out the bins or picking someone up from school, or where's the car keys the conversation starts to get edgy. I know it's not me because it's not like that with anyone else. He's a narcissist.

We haven't been out for years as a couple and when we do he looks uncomfortable. I'm seriously not remotely interested in other men. I'm so used to being ignored that I squirm when I find anyone listening to me!

Bohemian, you're right about the maths and it's scary when you put it like that - but as I said, life's crap takes over. It's not wasted years, it's not been a life in hell, just a bit up and down. And now I just want peace.

But for the children, it has been their lifetime. It's all they know. That's why the separation has to come sooner rather than later, but as smoothly as possible for their sakes.

you might see a change in your DD if you separate sooner rather than later. is it any wonder she is "very quiet about everything and passive"??

in meantime does she participate in anything like drama or such like? to let it all out,....

if the behaviour is wearing to you, to Dc witnessing it has to be bad... do dc walk on eggshells too ?
"conflict can happen any time"

dramatic changes in my dc once we left and moved; tho it took time

we do this to stop it, we do that to avoid it...but in the end you go back to it all.
not a good life is it for DC?

i should have left sooner... you have a chance to do so - really look into practicalities of this now -for DC sake

It sounds as though you are hoping you can ease him out of your life without him or your children noticing, for the sake of a quiet life.
It won't happen that way. And the way you're handling it, explaining to your DD why you must handle her DF with kid gloves, put up with the arguing despite the lack of anything positive in the relationship, and stay at all costs, apparently, strikes me as very weird, however well-meaning.
I can't figure out what message she can possibly be learning from it that will be good for her.
It sounds as though she tiptoes through life hoping not to attract notice so that people won't shout at her. That was how I "coped" with having an abusive parent and no escape from the situation. It didn't work.

Horse, how do you know he is a narcissist? Really interested in how you came to this conclusion... Did you see him in a different light after that, did it change anything for you?

We also never go out
He also has no friends

I think the realisation about his peronality 'disorder' began when I found myself decribing him a a bit 'autistic'. But recently I have read more about EA and the link with narcissistic personality disorder (at the top of the emotional abuse support thread). Now if he were simply 'autistic' (no offence to the real ones) I would be able to accept that and he could learn not to hurt me emotionally. I think hurting me emotionally is something that he needs to do a a narcissist - it validates him as higher in the pecking order (or something).

With narcissists you have to be either very tough or you leave. I have been very tough but can't be arsed any more as it's taken its toll.

His particular symptoms are

Very happy in his own company

Does not feel emotional pain from those close to him - either switches off or refuses to acknowledge it (hence he's just accepted the no holiday thing where most would be feeling enough sadness to want to do something about it).

Reacts with aggressive anger when things don't go his way.

It's always someone else's fault.

No friends mainly due to monologuing conversational techniques.

Refusal to change routine or ways of doing things despite endless requests.

Poor listening skills.

I put these down to 'being a bloke' as many women do, and are told to by their mothers.

All of these I can handle - except the aggression - which is only ever shown to me, he can switch from an aggressive row to giggling to dcs within seconds.

But please bear in mind folks, these are just the spikes in the general regular low key relationship. It's not all horrendous, dcs aren't traumatised in the way many are thinking - it's more a roll your eyes at his behaviour than a cower in the corner one. Dcs will tell us to stop arguing, loudly and confidently. We are not treading on eggshells, I'm just a bit weary and losing patience.

The turning point for me is that I know he is not capable of looking after me should the need arise and if I'm not there he will need to find someone else to pick on. I now know he won't change (hence my name).

weevils and ceslavie the dcs don't tread on eggshells as I mentioned above. But it is definitely a bad model for a relationship, and although I explain that to them (within reason for their age) it's not adequate. I do think the oldest sees him exactly for what he is but there is still lots of love and so much as I'm tempted to tell them he's an evil selfish narcissist, all I can do is suggest the behaviour is wrong but he can't help it.

The more we do things apart, the easier life gets so that's the way the relationship is going naturally. I really wasn't equipped to separate all those years ago because I didn't have the understanding of what was happening. Leaving has sadly always been on the cards - since the beginning it was part of the dialogue but there was always a last-resort patchup before it came to a separation. I thought he was the same as anyone, could change behaviours etc. I tried changing mine (tried everything) but he just can't do it. He will stay the way he is now for the rest of his life.

As we are naturally separating he is also naturally withdrawing - he ignores emotional pain anyway so for him it's not a biggie. He's not putting on a tough front, he's just more interested in his own survival.

I'm glad that you have said you've reached your turning point.
This step of holidaying without him can be the beginning of life without him.
you should not project that life in 'a poky flat' will be in any way worse than what you have now. Believe me, you can be happy anywhere as long as your DCs are well.

I had a relationship with a narcissist (looking at your description I realise that what he is) for 7 yrs and 1 child. Our (foreign) holidays were hell. At the smallest imagined slight, he would start driving towards the ferry port which would sometimes be days away. We were captives to his temper, myself and 5 DCs in the car (an assortment of my DCs and steps). Once I refused to map read the way to the ferry port to attempt to stop his crazy speeding flight, and threw the map out of the window. He had to stop to fetch it as we didn't know the route otherwise. I grabbed my DCs from the car, got out to try to get him to stop and talk, and he drove off without us. It was very distressing. But actually worse when he returned ten minutes later and we had no choice but to get back in the car because he had my money and passport.

Then there was the time when on holiday in Paris, we were all standing beneath the Eiffel tower. For some reason XP turned on me and screamed that I was a 'cunt'. People all around us. I felt as if I'd turned to stone, I couldn't move. He screamed at me some more and I had to scurry after him as otherwise I would attract attention to myself.

I'm sorry to splurge all over your thread.
But if any of this seems familiar to you, please know that the one thing I wish for myself is that I had got out of that relationship years before I did. I was a fool to think I was doing those children a favour by staying with him and I am still sorry for them that I stayed as long as I did.

I think foreign holidays really upset them because they are really out of control. Everything's new and us chameleons, we adapt, make the best of it and enjoy the newness - the whole point of holidays. But narcissists I guess are in a complete state of panic - unfortunately they take it out on us adapters.

LOL but :( at the mapreading thing, we got a satnav but he still tried to get me to hold it and read it to him. It took a long time for him to accept that I wouldn't.

Awful about Eiffel tower incident, but although he's never called me names out loud, we have had those incidents in public where people look at me with that look of pity. On the other hand I often would assert myself and I would then be made to feel like the outrageous one because I had had to 'tell him off'. Either way, it's not a good look.

I know that 'not a good look either way'. Ive also been made to feel like I was out of order for standing up for myself.
I'm not a shrinking mouse and it doesn't suit me to try.

It took 4 years (and 2 yrs away from that relationship) for me to get back to Paris to try and overwrite the Eiffel tower incident. I just stood there, in the place it happened, and tried to make a new happy memory for myself.

It had made me feel really sad writing this down again, (these things are fractions of the whole story) but even worse to think that your DCs are acquiring memories like mine did. Luckily they were 3 and 8 by the time I made the final break and they don't remember that much of it. But they lived in fear of his temper for years and my DD had a miserable early childhood because of it, and to be honest, because of me, because I didn't make the change that she was powerless to make for herself.