Angry friend. Advice needed.

[Alwaysworthchecking]

I'd really apreciate it if you could advise me here. I'd like to better understand what might be going on and be helped to give an appropriate response. Thanks.

Right, so a friend of mine (as in actual friend - this post isn't about me) has always had a short temper. He's married with a family and where we all hoped his temper would mellow with age, it really hasn't. Just to get one thing clear, he is not a physical violence kind of guy, he just shouts a lot, seems to think has opinions are the on correct way to proceed and never seems to accept anything as being his fault - the blame is always put onto someone else and so he never has to accept responsibility for his actions.

In our younger years, when we all hung out in a large friendship group I sometimes used to argue back but now I see him less and there are always families present I just let him rant and wait for it all the blow over. It blows over quickly, but then you are never more than an hour from the next rant, it seems.

Things is, he talks down to his wife. He is very critical to her and about her, in front of her. I don't understand why he does it. She sometimes argues back but mostly seems to accept his view of her and will tell a story about herself with words such as, 'Of course, stupid me...' which breaks my heart as her 'stupidities' are simply the sort of every day mistakes that any of us can and frequently do make - little over sights and misunderstandings - that kind of thing. Also she is far from stupid - she is phenomenally bright with a strong sense of ethics...and yet she lets him talk to her in this way and in front of the children.

I don't know why he is as he is - I have never understood what motivates him. My fear for him is that he will stress himself into a heart attack. My fear for her is that she will continue to be ground down by the way he criticises her. My fear for their kids is that they will come to accept that this is how relationships work. For myself I am concerned about the long-term effect on my friends and am also fed up with his many outbursts. I don't want to hear them. I don't want my kids to hear them. He seems to have few boundaries re. topics, too. On one memorable occasion he berated his wife in front of us for her not liking a particular sexual practice. It was nothing 'avant garde' but, you know, I don't want to hear it!

So, what would be a compassionate way for me to respond, the next time he goes off on one? I could continue to let it pass but I am genuinely worried that his behaviour will lead to a heart attack (he has other risk factors there, as far as I am aware) and I just don't want to hear it any more.

Whoah- part of last paragraph missing - sorry. The last sentence should have read: Also I do not feel comfortable any more allowing him to continue in the belief that we all sanction his treatment of his wife. Presumably if we continue to say nothing, that is the message we will give them all? Thanks for reading and for any advice thoughts you can offer.

Why be compassionate? Is he behaving with compassion? How about next time Mr. Gobshite goes off on one, you just look him dead in the eye and say 'Why are you acting like such a prat?'. Why are you worried about losing this friendship? The more everyone makes allowances the more right he thinks he is. He isn't. He's being an arsehole. Point it out to him. Constantly.

I agree.

Do you know how ridiculous/pathetic/stupid/condescending/bullying you sound?

I totally agree with Chickens.

Save your compassion for his dw because she's more likely to be afflicated with a serious health problem than this abusive ill-mannered twat.

Alternatively, if you seriously believe that being able to vent his unreasonable anger whenever he chooses is likely to 'stress' him into keeling over with a heart attack, suggest to his dw that she ups his life insurance, invests in a pair of ear plugs, and makes sure that she does at least 20 things to displease him every day

He sounds as though he has a psychological illness. That is not letting him off the hook - his behaviour is unacceptable. He will probably only change if he recognises that he has a problem, and seeks help to try to address it. I'm not a psychiatrist but I guess the wife would be considered to be 'co-dependent' or something. It is easy to say what she 'should' do - tell him to bugger off, but things are not that simple.

I feel sorry for her - I have experience of very difficult angry men (my father) and I know what it was like for my mother. She put up with him 'for the sake of the children' when actually it would have been a lot better if she had told him where to go. By tolerating his behaviour, she allowed him to continue to behave like a child. And he still does! My father is narcissistic - also used to suffer from wild mood swings and depression. I have to say he is now on some kind of medication and is A WHOLE LOT better behaved. He is still a selfish little shit but the angry ranting has more or less stopped.

Does anyone ever call him on his behaviour?

"Wow, that was a really nasty thing to say to your wife", might be a good start.

But you will have to accept that it might mean the end of your friendship.

Seems to me that you must have a heart of gold OP, because he sounds like the sort of person that I would have dumped as a friend many years ago.

Does nobody call him at all on his behaviour?

People often only behave like this because no one tells them what a complete arse they look not to.

Thank you Chickens. I am wary of conflict and since we see him only with both sets of children present, I am wary of prolonging an outburst. It concerns me that his dc will see me criticising their dad and that my dc will have to hear him hurling abuse at me.

To be honest, I would not regret losing his friendship at this point - he is a twat - but I would miss the rest of them. I also do not wish to isolate them. My compassion is for the rest of his family.

Despite my reluctance to tackle this head on, I do appreciate your advice and will give it some serious thought. I think I can imagine myself responding to the next one with a bored look and a, 'Oh, do be quiet. No one agrees with you on this anyway.' It would provoke a torrent, I daresay, which would mortally offend my dc, but then why do I want them to see him in a good light anyway? I don't really, do I? All the while I stay silent about it in front of them I am simply condoning his behaviour. Hmm...thanks for making me think about that! Appreciated.

How old are your DC?

Looking at it from the other side - although it is good to shelter DC from ranting idiots, it is good for them to see their mother standing up to a bully.

Sorry - many x-posts. Thank you, everyone! Izzy, that made me snort my tea! Good point about her health too. Another person recently remarked to me how she is looking run down.

MmeLindor, good point. A year or so ago we kind of dropped off seeing them (contact has since been rekindled) because I disagreed with something they both said. My response was a remark meant entirely innocently but, looking back, I could see how I sounded a bit of an arse. It won't take much to lose them altogether really, will it? They've probably already got me down as a bit annoying, though I never meant to be. Still, if I say something and they never want to see us again maybe it'll be a little chink of light through the wall of his stinking attitude.

Diddl and MmeLindor, I don't think anyone does call him on it, now you mention it? having asked mutual friends if they experience similar moments with him, it seems they all do and are gradually reducing the amount of time they spend with him but they, like me, just let it pass. Maybe the time has come? I'm not as close to them as some of the others so it may be less hurtful for me to stick my neck out than it would be for them. I can afford to lose him, iswim. There are other friends for them, so even if we are lost to them, they will not be alone.

Tadpoles, so sorry about your dad. Thank you for telling me that. I had a very similar convo with someone this morning. I am starting to see how arse-like behaviour cannot be seen in isolation - there are always casualties. :( Sorry to sound so naive and ignorant but it is not something I have ever had to live with. Other people's perspectives are so helpful to me here and I appreicate you taking the time to describe to me what it is lke.

Mme Lindor, 8 and 5 and you are so right. I am so motivated to speak up next time, now! It will be a while though. Perhaps I'll come back here for a rallying call before I see them next.

So, you worry that his kids shall see his dad criticized, whereas HE gets to criticize everybody else?

I would not be friends with such a shit. And in fact, you are agreeing with his shit, and I would not personally stand idly by and swallow such behaviour, as it is literally condoning it.

Pre-empt and belittle his tantrums. Every time you start talking to him ask him if he's going to have another toddler tantrum. When he starts off on a shouty episode say calmly that he is obviously in the wrong if he can only think he's able to win by shouting for the longest; you'll assume that he is wrong unless he can calm down and talk sensibly like a grown up.

Basically any time he does something like this make sure that he knows that it makes him look the ignorant/childish/wrong one. At the moment it sounds like he does it because he thinks it shows he is right; you need to break that association and show that it actually has the opposite effect.

I'd also be worrying about his wife - and if this is really ingrained then if his old friends start trying to change it then is he likely to start to take it out on his wife?

I'd also start bigging up (sorry hate the phrase but think it works here) the wife when she puts herself down, especially if it is as a result of him putting her down. And have a quiet word with him to suggest anger management and say what your worries are, and tell him he needs to take timeouts if he starts getting angry. And if he does kick off then just tell him to stop, it's not the time or place for a childish outburst (especially if it is another relationship one!) and see if lots of little things targeting all angles of his behaviour will add up to lessen it.

Is his father like this by any chance?

Do you have an individual-type relationship with his wife, or do you only ever see them as a couple? Sounds like she might appreciate some sympathy/support.

Zipzap, no. I have never seen his dad lose his rag and he idolises his dad. In fact, his dad has always struck me as a very calm individual. I think that there is a reason for his behaviour and attitude but I have never been able to figure out what it is. I do 'big her up'. When she says, 'Of couse, silly me...' I always say, 'Oh, that's so easy to do,' or, 'I do that kind of thing all the time!' I have previously told her that she is stunning (by god, she is!) and she modestly shrugs it off. I have asked her for advice on topics too, so hopefully she knows that she is valued by us. You are right in thinking that his behaviour is childish: it is exactly that.

Quintessentially, yes I am. You are right. I would like to be better than that. Thank you. Yes, I have given him my full permission to criticise her and, on one recent occasion, me. That was in front of my dc and his too. I will focus on growing a pair, as they say. I've genuinely had enough of his attiude now and I think I had to reach that point before I could seriously consider responding.

How about something like this next time he starts on an angry rant?

"You know Jim, you always sound angry and upset at the smallest things. It's not normal to get upset and struggle to deal with things that other people would brush off and not be worried by. Have you ever thought about getting some counselling to try to deal with things better? You know we all care for you and don't like to see you upset all the time, but it really isn't pleasant to be around you when you are like this."

It may well be that he uses anger and aggressiveness to deal with his own feelings of insecurity. Pointing out to him that this makes him look like a sad, weak man rather than a big strong tough one may be enough to shake him up.

After that, whenever he starts ranting, say "We know you are upset, but you are being unpleasant. Please try to calm down".

I agree with Mme and *Chickens here, he needs to be made aware of just what his behaviour is doing to his wife and children, (I imagine his wife to be scared to point out his behaviour for getting a mouthful or worse), and soon.

Do you think it could get worse? As in the shouting is no longer getting a response so he'll get physical. That would be my worry here but I don't know him and can only go off what you've said.

I think that it's got to the point where intervention is a good idea before someone get's seriously hurt.

Thank you again. Thistledew, I have been thinking lately that it is a sign of insecurity,which is rather heartbreaking.

Mouseface, so far of any of us can ever be certain about these things, no, I do not think he would ever hurt anyone physically. I have never, ever seen any indication of that and I have known him for a very long time. I do recall, many years ago, him being very anti-violence. Physically, it appears he is a peaceful man. His gob, on the other hand, is not.

I do not think it will get worse. It doesn't however, show any signs of stopping and frankly it's never been great. If he was going to stop on his own, he'd have done it by now. If she was going to tell him to stop, she'd have done so by now. Only difference now is that it's gone on long enough to get wearing and that there are children involved. I watched the dynamics there, the last time I saw them all, and it was interesting, to say the least. No one there will act but I've had enough and think I now will.

I like the idea of, 'You're cross but your response is out of order.' Thanks.

I should have said, he's had some hardships to deal with in his life. Nothing that couldn't have happened to anyone else, but hardships nonetheless. None of these excuse his behaviour at all, but perhaps they offer part explanations for why he is stressed and insecure. Bearing that in mind, I will rekindle my compassion but use it to inform my response, not as a get-out clause for me.

If I were lost and adrift like he seems to be, or being treated as he treats his wife, I think I'd like someone to step in and say, 'Look, this isn't right - things could be better for you all.' If no one ever spoke up I'd eventually think nobody loved me and that I truly wasn't worth a thing. :(

Again, don't want to sound like I am spouting psychobabble (although I have trained as a counsellor! :) but I guess the kindest thing you could do for the wife would be to suggest that she also seeks some help to understand why she puts up with this behaviour. It is clearly an ongoing pattern of behaviour and there is no reason to suppose it will get better. It's horrible for the children to witness this. And in reality this is verbal abuse.

I always feel quite strongly about these types of situation as I grew up in a household where my father could be quite verbally abusive and had the most horrible temper. He could be nice and good fun too, so it was not all doom and gloom. But those moods - horrible, we all were walking on egg-shells.

I have a "friend" like this. I've known him since he was 9, and I think a big turning point in his life was when his dad died in very suspicious circumstances. His relationship with his family went downhill as a teenager and now he doesn't speak to his siblings at all. I think he is a very unhappy person. Over the last five years or so I've reduced contact with him drastically - we had a huge fight a few years ago and that did it for me. I can't avoid seeing him sometimes as he is close to some of my good friends but I don't talk to him much any more. I feel very sorry for his girlfriends as he treats them like shit and talks about them behind their backs but my view is that I'm not responsible for their happiness and it's up them to recognise what a shit he is.

My worry would be that one day, he might just snap and lash out physically.

I too like that line - 'You're cross.........', you could even say 'I understand why/that you're angry but......'

Sometimes the 'I understand bit' can be a red rag to a bull so see what YOU think about adding that.

I admire your desire to help him here, most people would just give him a wide birth but I get the impression that there is more to him that meets the eye....... something in the past maybe?

Just be careful okay?

Mouseface, he's just an old friend that I've known since I was in my teens. He, dh and a gang of us were friends together and did all the usual teen things of our era: hanging out, listening to the same music, staying up late, drinking coffee talking about music, etc. The belief we hold now had their genesis in those teenage years. Time is the bond we all share now. My desire to help him is partly that he's a human being known to me, partly that I like his wife and kids very much and partly the pure old selfish motive that his anger is getting on my nerves and I'm faced with either cease contact (bit sad if I didn't see his kids and for dh to lose an old friend) or speak up.

Yes, I think I'll miss the 'I understand' line because none of us truly understand another's experience, do we, however much we think we might. Thanks for the advice, though. Truly, I appreciate it all.

Do what YOU think is best. Hope it goes well.