Can he change or am I stupid?

[NotThemCrows]

Ok. I seriously need to know if it's possible for a person to change. My DH has anger issues which have only really come to the surface since we became parents. Prior to this he was a decent partner/husband and I was sure that I loved him.

Warning, this is going to be long but I'm trying not to drip feed. (I have name changed as well)

Problems have been; unrealistic expectations of dc's behaviour/swearing at and in front of dc's/shouting at dc's for normal things like spilling drinks etc/aggressive and intimidating behaviour/sulking and huffing and puffing (which makes me tense up)/habitual drinking and the resulting loneliness and lack of intimacy.

I also know that we have some level of co-dependency thing going on. My Dad was a drinker (not full-blown alcoholic) and DH has always drunk habitually. I have been to Al-anon years ago and have managed to detach etc and take less responsibility for him and made positive changes to myself.

He also has experienced huge rejection from one of our children. They are adopted (after 8 yrs of TTC) and DD1 had a single female foster carer. She came to us at 2.5 and did not like strange adult males and totally rejected him initially which he still finds hard today (more than 3 years on).

I have basically been very unhappy for at least 2 years. I thought of leaving him then, but then he was made redundant and the timing would have been very unfortunate. The rejection of the redundancy, followed by marriage breakdown, I couldn't do that to him.

I have been sweeping things under the carpet, desperate to convince myself that a happy family life was possible. Especially after going through so much to actually become a family. I have had anxiety/depression for the last 6 months or so, on medication now, waiting for a phone consultation on Thurs for NHS counselling. We have also been going to Relate and I am having a solo session tonight.

I have been repeatedly saying things to him for years about his parenting like "I don't want to be in a family where X happens", "I can't parent with you like this", "X is unacceptable to me", "you are making it harder for me to parent", "You are breaking my heart by doing X" etc and it has been like speaking to a brick wall and I have totally detached emotionally from him. He wouldn't seek any help or read any parenting books (poss a gender thing) even when I said that some of his behaviours were damaging our dc's and tried to be supportive by suggesting that we could read a chapter at a time and discuss it and try to implement the strategies before moving on. (Even though I have read this book a number of times myself, I couldn't use the techniques on my own)

We had a proper honest conversation at Xmas where he admitted that he didn't enjoy being a dad and I told him straight that I wanted a separation. He was totally shocked (!!!!!!!??????!!!!!!) and is trying really hard to change. He has realised and started to take responsibility for the damage he has done and has said that he understands why I would want to separate. He has stopped drinking (although my previous Al-anon work was so effective, I didn't notice! And I know that I can't rely on this to stay the same), he has been reading parenting books etc and his relationships with the dc's have really improved already.

I recognise that I have been doing the old eggshells thing and that there have been signs of some low level emotional abuse. I have researched this and see it as low level because he has always let me have my freedom (including plenty of nights away on my own without interrogation etc), never cut me off from anyone, never verbally or physically abused me, frequently tells me that I am beautiful and that he loves me etc. Although he is an expert passive/aggressive/sulker and gets angry easily. He says that he is going to the GP tomorrow to ask about anger management.

Until yesterday I was convinced that he would be moving out and had been planning all the practicalities etc. Then I thought, he is actually a good person (who was at the receiving end of dubious parenting himself) and he really is trying to change.

Am I kidding myself? Can he really change? Am I being manipulated and making excuses for him? I really would appreciate some perspective on this as my head feels full of spaghetti.
I have to pop out for a couple of hours but will check back later.

Thanks to all of you for reading this.

Actions speak louder than words. You can only judge by his actions. I think it's rare for people to change, but it does sound like your DH has woken up and is behaving differently.

I would suggest that to maintain behavioural changes he would need external help (counsellor, attending AA meetings, that sort of thing.) And that you need to put your DCs first, so it needs to be a good family atmosphere for them that is the priority, and the most important point you judge the stay-or-go thing on.

It sounds to me like he is making big moves to change things, which is a very positive sign. If he was acknowledging what you said but then doing nothing about it I would say move on nothings going to change but the fact that he's stopped drinking, is reading parenting books and is looking into anger management indicates that he has genuinely recognised there is a serious problem and is trying to rectify it. Good for him.

That said, you are under no obligation whatsoever to stay with him. What you need to look at is how you genuinely feel - do you love him any more? If he did change, would you want to be with him, or do you feel the years of putting up with his behaviour have eroded your feelings for him too much?

A (very) brief answer from me would be that; Christmas was only 3 weeks ago. He obviously is trying very hard to change. Give him more time and reassess a bit later.

Think about the things that you are NOT willing to live with and where you draw the line.

PS good luck

How did this not come up during all the assessments that take place during the huge pre-adoption assessment process and all the SW meetings that take place whilst the placement was in progress?

Was his drinking not addressed then? I think a near alcoholic person would be pretty obvious to a Children and Families SW!

Was he really able to hide his sulking/anger/passive aggression from the SW during the very lengthy, stressful and intrusive processes?

I'm just trying to understand what of this pre-dated the adoption or whether it was really reactionary.

I find it hard to believe that a mild-mannered man would change so drastically and pretty much overnight.

Sorry if I don't sound sympathetic - not unsympathetic, just trying to understand more clearly.

If it was reactionary, then yes, I think he can change back given the right support. Because, surely he'd only be returning to type rather than changing as such...

I agree with Vita - three weeks is nothing. Set clear expectations and see how they go.

The one thing I would say though - if you have been going to Relate and he was still completely surprised by you talking of a seperation - I would question how effective that particular counselling is for you bot and how honest you are being in your sessions - either he isn't listening or you are holding back because, to me, that kind of should have come out in your discussions, not been a big surprise.

You talk of 'sweeping things under the carpet' - with kindness it doesn't sound like your DH is the only passive one. You need to make changes too.

Good luck to you and your family.

of course he can change, anyone can, or else we would all be stuck in the same loop, never moving on. Though reading some of the rubbish on here, you would be hard pressed to think that men can and will change, as well as women.

OP have you changed any of your behaviours/views/opinions since you were 18? I know I have, some naturally, some with help, some through experience.

TBH I would run a mile from someone suggesting i read a self help book and then discuss it chapter by chapter - I would probably end up hitting them with said book lol

I agree with the others.
Sometimes people need a shake up to actually change. I know a few people that were able to save their marriages.
It is still early days, so wait and see. However, Senorita said, be very clear about where you draw the line. It is very easy to creep up to the previous behaviour.

Yes he can change - my husband did, after years of emotional abuse.
He has to want to change himself FOR himself though....nothing else will do.
If he's doing it for you, he won't manage to make those changes permanent.

My dh went for counselling and CBT after I left him with our three kids in tow.

When, and only when, he was able to convince me that he truly did not wish to be that disrespectful, manipulative, selfish, rude bastard anymore and would put his all into moving forward with a completely different attitude, did I agree to give him another go.

He has stuck to his word, and is a different person now. The most important thing is that he did it because HE wanted to!

It has been a year now btw - and not a single row to report, bar the monir niggles that are natural and fitting in a marriage.

Screaming rows and aggressive bad language are a thing of the past.

Wow Pictish. That's fantastic! Good for your DH!

Thank you. I know for a fact that my story is somewhat of a rarity, and I am often to be found on the threads detailing abusive behaviour, telling the OP to get the fuck out. I have done my research, and know that an abusive person making the neccessary changes almost never happens.

In our case it did, but it took a LOT of soul searching, responsibility taking, facing up, and eye opening on dh's behalf to make it happen. I didn't intervene while he sought help, I didn't counsel him, I didn't encourage him or make any demands....he took the full course of change upon himself, sought professional help and made it happen!

There would have been no point in any of it otherwise.

I have enormous respect for the way he faced up to his wrong doing.

Yes, people can change, but not because you want them to.

For example, my Dad was an alcoholic for my entire childhood. He was awful to live with. My Mum threatened to leave him many, many times, a few times even taking me and my sister to stay with friends when it got too much. Each of those times, she came back because he said he would change, but he never did.

The turning point for him was one evening, my Mum came downstairs and found him in the kitchen, blind drunk and stumbling around. She says he looked like a lost little old man. She said that in that moment, she wasn't mad at him, she just felt sorry for him, and lost any respect for him she had left. She told him so, then went upstairs and the next morning, told him that she was divorcing him. He was so humiliated by being found in that state that it was like something in his head just clicked. He went to AA and he's been sober for 4 years.

Its strange, but that one incident was enough for him. Being found in such a vulnerable position, all of his own doing was enough for him to sort his sh*t out. He was actually banned from driving for a year due to his drinking before that happened, and even that wasn't enough.

So, yeah, I guess my point is, people can change, but only when they are ready and accepting.

CBT was excellent in helping my dh to deal with his anger. He was able to distinguish the cycle of thoughts and feelings that led to an outburst (often daily back then) and learned to put a spanner in the spokes, so to speak.

Remember OP - a person is not abusive because they are angry....they beahve angrily because they are abusive! A person always has a choice as to how they behave....particularly those who anger quickly and regularly.

Does he shout and swear at his boss? His mother? His friends? No - of course he doesn't. He chooses to behave that way infront of you and the kids because somewhere in there, he thinks it's ok. Even if he SAYS he doesn't - he clearly does, otherwise he wouldn't do it. He would control himself as he does at all other times.

You have to be realistic if any change is going to happen.

I can tell you for nothing now, that a single incident of abusive behaviour from my dh, will mean his sorry ass will be on the other side of the front door for good. I will NEVER tolerate being verbally abused or enduring his temper ever ever again.

"How did this not come up during all the assessments that take place during the huge pre-adoption assessment process and all the SW meetings that take place whilst the placement was in progress?"

Very easily particularly if it has been triggered by having children and if as it seems that he found it hard to bond with your eldest having been rejected by her that has probably exacerbated the problem. And meetings tend to be for an hour or two at a time in the relative calm and comfort of your own (childless) home!

I don't know if he can change but as you know adoption is a stressful journey to parenthood for the calmest of us and he doesn't sound like the calmest of us!

I also think that he needs to find a way forward that works for him, reading parenting books because he thinks thats what he should do or because it will bring him brownie points form you seems a bit pointless. I think he needs proper counselling not just about his anger management but also about his issues with your DD. Even if you separate, in his current frame of mind I suspect that your DD will "lose" her father, he will probably find it easy to detach from her, in fact it will probably be easier than keeping in contact as he won't have to face up to his failure to bond with her.

I'm sure you understand that another loss to your daughter won;t be a good thing for her in the long run, so regardless of anything else I think you should ask for post adoption support to address this particular problem.

People can and do change, but unfortunately it's rare. For most people, if there has been any incidence of abuse in their relationship I would urge them not to give a second chance as current stats suggest that less than 5% of abusers change (though they often change they way they inflict that abuse as a result of counselling or anger management).

However, in your case if you feel you want to give the marriage another go and you genuinely believe that he is trying, then I don't see any problem in giving him a little longer to see if his behaviour follows through on his words. It sounds as though he has developed this behaviour rather than always being this way, which is promising (although it's worth bearing in mind that many abusers/selfish partners only show their true colours after becoming parents, when their partners no longer put them as the number 1 priority. It is well-documented sadly).

The thing is, if your trust in him has been damaged beyond a certain extent, you may find that even if he does change, the marriage is broken beyond repair anyway. Sometimes, it's a case of too little too later, and while he should be applauded for making the effort to change, this in no way obligates you to stick around if for you the marriage has died. You shouldn't lose sight of that fact.

Whatever you decide, I would recommend continuing the counselling individually as well as together, even if you decide to separate. Aggressive behaviour and swearing at the DC, especially young foster children from troubled backgrounds suggests to me that his behaviour is more extreme than you've let on in your post when you say 'low level emotional abuse'. From the child's POV being swore at and frightened by the person that's taken over your care is very frightening and could possibly damage the child's ability to trust others to an alarming extent.

You sound like a lovely, warm person who is trying her hardest to be fair to everyone involved. Just make sure you're fair to yourself as well.

My concern really here is for the children. I agree with the point about all of this being missed during the adoption process. However OP did state that prior to parenthood her DH was ok.

Having just watched the Wright Stuff where they were talking about giving your children up for adoption and the gamble that it is in relation to them actually having a better life that you thought you could give them, this is very poignant.

I am not sayng you should separate immediately, in fact I am not giving any advice about what you should do. However I would ask you to consider what the birth family of your children would think/feel abou the situation your DCs are living in. Thin about what you think is acceptable living situation for your children and act accordingly.

Being adoptive parents doesn't mean you have to be perfect. However it is a huge responsibility you have both undertaken to nurture and care for these (traumatised) children and one which I believe should be at the forefront of any decisions you make now.

Hugs

I'm another fan of CBT pictish. My DH's issues are different, but he is making so much progress with CBT - and he found a practitioner, booked it and does it all on his own. It's his thing to deal with, not mine.

"I agree with the point about all of this being missed during the adoption process." social worker don't have some magic way of knowing how people will cope with the stress of parenting and the additional stress of adoptive parenting. They aren't allowed to "stress-test" you! No waterboarding allowed! They ask you how you will cope, they ask your referees how you will cope and they get to know you over a period of about 3-6 months usually a couple of hours every few weeks. I would guess 15-20 hours of meetings in total.

Many social workers have finely honed bullshit meters but if OP hadn't spotted the problem coming I doubt a strangers would on the basis of 20 hours in total.

I haven't watched the Wright stuff but people voluntarily "giving Up" their children for a "better life" is vanishingly rare in this country. The majority of children placed for adoption are removed not relinquished.

I agree with the posters saying to give him more time.

You're asking him to make very significant changes to his behaviour and attitude, three weeks is not long enough to judge that by. It might help to try and get a fairer idea of where you plan to be in, say, 3 months, 6 months or a year. That way your DH will know what is expected of him, and if he's not prepared to make those changes, then you can part ways now without dragging it on.

I do think people can change. It's rare though.

I am going to be blunt here.

What you dh is doing to your children is child abuse.

This has been going on since he was a parent? Can I ask how long that has been?

It seems from your post that you recognise this abuse.

It also seems that you are more worried about how he is treating you (low level emotional abuse - as you put it). Does he shout agressively and intimidate you also?

I don't know very much about adoption/fostering but do social workers on check in from time to time to check how it's going?

It sounds like you are having a really rough time at the moment and you are trying to hold together a family - that you have always wanted - on your own. Please make the right decision for the sake of your children and yourself.

I meant to add, he may change and you are not stupid, just hopeful.

"do social workers on check in from time to time to check how it's going?" after placement yes but one order is final, no. the children are legally yours, same rules as birth children apply.