Can he change or am I stupid?

[NotThemCrows]

Ok. I seriously need to know if it's possible for a person to change. My DH has anger issues which have only really come to the surface since we became parents. Prior to this he was a decent partner/husband and I was sure that I loved him.

Warning, this is going to be long but I'm trying not to drip feed. (I have name changed as well)

Problems have been; unrealistic expectations of dc's behaviour/swearing at and in front of dc's/shouting at dc's for normal things like spilling drinks etc/aggressive and intimidating behaviour/sulking and huffing and puffing (which makes me tense up)/habitual drinking and the resulting loneliness and lack of intimacy.

I also know that we have some level of co-dependency thing going on. My Dad was a drinker (not full-blown alcoholic) and DH has always drunk habitually. I have been to Al-anon years ago and have managed to detach etc and take less responsibility for him and made positive changes to myself.

He also has experienced huge rejection from one of our children. They are adopted (after 8 yrs of TTC) and DD1 had a single female foster carer. She came to us at 2.5 and did not like strange adult males and totally rejected him initially which he still finds hard today (more than 3 years on).

I have basically been very unhappy for at least 2 years. I thought of leaving him then, but then he was made redundant and the timing would have been very unfortunate. The rejection of the redundancy, followed by marriage breakdown, I couldn't do that to him.

I have been sweeping things under the carpet, desperate to convince myself that a happy family life was possible. Especially after going through so much to actually become a family. I have had anxiety/depression for the last 6 months or so, on medication now, waiting for a phone consultation on Thurs for NHS counselling. We have also been going to Relate and I am having a solo session tonight.

I have been repeatedly saying things to him for years about his parenting like "I don't want to be in a family where X happens", "I can't parent with you like this", "X is unacceptable to me", "you are making it harder for me to parent", "You are breaking my heart by doing X" etc and it has been like speaking to a brick wall and I have totally detached emotionally from him. He wouldn't seek any help or read any parenting books (poss a gender thing) even when I said that some of his behaviours were damaging our dc's and tried to be supportive by suggesting that we could read a chapter at a time and discuss it and try to implement the strategies before moving on. (Even though I have read this book a number of times myself, I couldn't use the techniques on my own)

We had a proper honest conversation at Xmas where he admitted that he didn't enjoy being a dad and I told him straight that I wanted a separation. He was totally shocked (!!!!!!!??????!!!!!!) and is trying really hard to change. He has realised and started to take responsibility for the damage he has done and has said that he understands why I would want to separate. He has stopped drinking (although my previous Al-anon work was so effective, I didn't notice! And I know that I can't rely on this to stay the same), he has been reading parenting books etc and his relationships with the dc's have really improved already.

I recognise that I have been doing the old eggshells thing and that there have been signs of some low level emotional abuse. I have researched this and see it as low level because he has always let me have my freedom (including plenty of nights away on my own without interrogation etc), never cut me off from anyone, never verbally or physically abused me, frequently tells me that I am beautiful and that he loves me etc. Although he is an expert passive/aggressive/sulker and gets angry easily. He says that he is going to the GP tomorrow to ask about anger management.

Until yesterday I was convinced that he would be moving out and had been planning all the practicalities etc. Then I thought, he is actually a good person (who was at the receiving end of dubious parenting himself) and he really is trying to change.

Am I kidding myself? Can he really change? Am I being manipulated and making excuses for him? I really would appreciate some perspective on this as my head feels full of spaghetti.
I have to pop out for a couple of hours but will check back later.

Thanks to all of you for reading this.

Thanks Kew, wasn't sure.

council are obliged (in theory) to provide post adoption support if you ask for it but it can be patchy.

WilsonFrickett - we only had 2 relate sessions prior to xmas where he was in denial and I sat blubbing. Had one session since, which was much more open and we talked about separation. Also, I agree that I need to become more assertive.
Looking back, my dad died only met a couple of weeks after we met (16years ago) and I think I have been a bit of a "child" in the relationship.

Folkgirl - he was never perfect, neither am I. He suffered hugely from the initial rejection by our daughter.

Thanks, Kew for recognising the potential impact of that, and your other insights, useful to have adoption perspective. We have had some post adoption support (doing a course run by adoption UK which has helped him to see our dc's more realistically). SS said we had to sort out and pay for our own Relate/counselling - budgets being what they are and them being legally adopted now, SS are not concerned about a placement breakdown.

"Many social workers have finely honed bullshit meters but if OP hadn't spotted the problem coming I doubt a strangers would on the basis of 20 hours in total." - exactly! I truly believed that he would be a great dad and never expected to be in this situation (also, realistically, we are middle class professionals and there are thousands of children waiting for adoptive homes and SS assessments can be biased). Also, Kew thank you for identifying the importance of the issue of loss. I am doing everything I can to ensure our dc's are happy and safe and a further loss will be very damaging to them (not a good enough reason to stay in my current situation tho which is why I am prepared to boot his ass out if necessary)

Picktish - thanks for your insight. I didn't ask him to change, I didn't ask him to stop drinking, he has taken all these things on board himself and has said that whatever the outcome for "us" he will be a better person for it, so I think that is a healthy place for him to be in mentally.

Mumtosome - I agree that I/we have a huge responsibility to our dc's and their birth family. They were removed from birth family by SS and I know that their standard of life with us is better than it would have been otherwise, even tho I accept that things are not good now.

Sunshineandbooks -
"The thing is, if your trust in him has been damaged beyond a certain extent, you may find that even if he does change, the marriage is broken beyond repair anyway. Sometimes, it's a case of too little too later, and while he should be applauded for making the effort to change, this in no way obligates you to stick around if for you the marriage has died. You shouldn't lose sight of that fact" - thanks for that, I have told him that its possibly too little too late and he has acknowledged that.

When I said he had sworn at the dc's I probably wasn't very clear, he hasn't verbally abused them or sworn directly at then, but has done lots of audible "FFS" under his breath when annoyed with them. Which I consider unacceptable.

I appreciate all the posters saying that 3 weeks is not enough time. Also, I can see that it would be useful for me to make non-negotiable lists of things that are unacceptable/acceptable and ideal etc if our marriage is to continue.

"I can tell you for nothing now, that a single incident of abusive behaviour from my dh, will mean his sorry ass will be on the other side of the front door for good. I will NEVER tolerate being verbally abused or enduring his temper ever ever again." That is exactly how I feel. Enough is enough

Thanks everyone. I really, really appreciate the support.

This is sad.

Honestly? I think I'd tell him to leave while he goes through the counselling and moves towards making the changes he needs to make in order not to be a complete fucking shit to his children.

If he continues to get help and make strides towards being a good (not abusive, because what you describe is abuse IMO - and all because he felt "rejected" by a damaged little child? - ) parent then I would maybe consider having a relationship again.

Just maybe.

Thanks for your perspective Shirley, I agree with you that the way that he reacted to dd's rejection of him is/was pathetic and I have very little patience with him on this subject, I am just trying to show the whole picture and it is a relevant factor that has affected him and his ability to parent. No matter how anyone else sees it.

I may well be asking him to move out while he makes the necessary changes too. I know that it is an option and an attractive one at times.

Kewcumber. I am fully aware of the strain SWs are under. I just would have thought that during the process 'something' may have bben picked up.

I am also fully aware than there aren't many children'given up' for adoption I don't think I even hinted that there was an abundance. However whether children are given up or are removed for their own safety, then those who are given the responsibility of caring for them should, IMO, provide GOOD parenting and high levels of safety and security, not just good enough. These children have already experienced trauma and loss, attachment difficulties and need to be in loving, nurturing environments. Unfortunately, unless OPs Dh can change and fairlyquickly then these children are going to suffer as a result of how he goes about his business.

Shirleyofallseasons has got it just about right I think.

Thank you Shirley and Mumtosome.

I would just like to add that he used the term "mental abuse" yesterday when talking about his previous behaviours, this is not a term that I have ever used to him so he came up with it himself and is recognising the seriousness of his actions.

I would also like to point out that his unacceptable behaviours have been infrequent, not occurring daily and looking around at other parents, not all that unusual, sadly.

He also can be very nurturing and I belive that the current situation is and has been, on the whole 90% nurturing. I am very sensitive to negativity and that is why I am concerned about the other 10%. I would like to provide a parenting environment thats 100% nurturing (if that is realistic) that is why I am facing up to things and why I am on here.

I think shirley's idea is good and worth considering.

I am still concerned regards to the welfare of your children, your OP says it has been going on for years. Obviously you are anon to me and it is up to you to protect your children. You can see a definition of child abuse on NSPCC website.

It seems in your last few posts you have started trying to play down his behaviour compared to your original post. Also you said before dh does/did swear AT the children not just to himself under his breath.

it isn't pathetic to feel rejected by a child, though to have carried it this long is rather childish (that he hasn't found a way to address it yet). Its very normal. Post adoption depression is very common (more common than PND I understand) and I can promise that I felt very very rejected by DS. Adopting after many years of trying for a family and the stress of the assessment and uncertainty of what kind of child you will be matched with often results in you feeling euphoric when it all finally happens. Also everyone thinks your problems are then solved.

Then your much longed for child screams the place down when they see you, refuses to make eye contact, smiles at anyone except you and does so repeatedly for hours, days, weeks even months sometimes. It isn't pathetic to feel rejected by that and to struggle to bond with that child. What he needs to do is to find someone who has experience of dealing with these kinds of issues not a general or relate counsellor. Adoption UK course is a good start but I wonder if he would benefit from some more one to one help. This should be independent of you marriage, he will still be her father and must resolve this anyway.

I am not excusing his behaviour but I wouldn't dismiss how he felt because I felt the same and it can be soul destroying.

Mumtosome - I tend to overreact when there is an implication that adoptive parents somehow take on children who have been kindly relinquished in order for them to have a better life and therefore have a special responsibility to give their children more than other children. Most adoptive parents deal with more crap caused by other parents than the vast majority of people and try harder than many to give their child safety and stability. Apologies if you were not implying that in this case.

Kew completely understand where you are coming from. I suppose I am of the optinion that these children deserve better than 'normal' care because of the trauma they are likely to have experienced before being adopted. I certainly didn't mean to imply that children were'given up' nicely for adoption. Sorry if it came across as such.

Having worked for a long time with vulnerable children I am only too aware of why children are adopted, and what they have to go through before they are adopted. I also acknowledge how difficult it can be for parents to care for children who have experienced such trauma and take my hat off to anyone who does this. However I don't think that SS are always as upfront as they could be about the implications of attachment issues/trauma at point of adoption and I also don't believe that there is enough support afterwards either for the children or the adoptive parents.

ANyway that's an aside formthe main thread - sorry. OP good luck with whatever you choose to do. It sounds like you really love your family an donly want what's best. xx

Blondie, that was a genuine typo, he has not sworn directly at the dc's, as I said earlier.

I appreciate your concern (and other people's concern) for the safety and well being of my children. It is what I need to hear and why I am facing up to things, because I am also concerned.

I am aware that what has been happening is/was unhealthy and damaging and I am not going to let it continue.

I am a school teacher and I know from bitter professional experience that what is happening in our household (while being unacceptable) would not even register on SS radar. I can also see, objectively that our children are doing well (from school/nursery feedback etc) although I acknowledge that they would obviously be doing much better if the home situation was improved.

I am trying to be objective here, although I know that I may be making excuses etc and I am trying to bear that in mind. I have looked at definitions of abuse/emotional abuse etc and while our situation desperately needs changing I would say that there have been some elements at a low level as I said in my OP. Not that any kind of abuse is acceptable at any level, like I said, i am just trying to get things in perspective and assess the likelihood of DH being able to make sufficient changes.

I also agree with Shirley, that realistically we would need to be under separate roofs to sort stuff out and for him to make changes and then possibly, if all goes well, think about rebuilding/restructuring/renegotiating some kind of relationship if that is the best way forward for all of us.

I really appreciate everyone for posting on here and even if some of it makes uncomfortable reading, I know that those are the words I most need to pay attention to.

Thanks again, Kew for your input. My use of the term "pathetic" was a reflection of my frustrations that he hasn't been able to deal with it (despite having many one to one sessions with our post adoption support SW - he couldn't admit he was struggling) and also my frustrations that he appeared very selfish at the time and completely uncapable of empathising with her and her trauma. It was a poor choice of words and selected for very personal and subjective reasons. I apologise for using it.

Fortunately, I didn't have to experience it directly and can't imagine how hard it must have been.

I know from your posts you are in a difficult situation and are trying to put it right, I hope all works out as you would like it to.

I didn't mean to be so blunt/harsh but I am involved with abused children and the verbal/emotional stuff is as damaging as the phyiscal.

I appreciate that blondie, thanks for your input.

Just to (maybe?) put people's minds at rest a bit, we have been totally open with our relate counsellor about the specifics of the home situation and things that have occurred (too long-winded to go in to in detail on here) and she said that SS may be interested "in that kind of thing" about one incident (of many) that we discussed.

She said this, I believe, to help DH realise the impact of stuff he has been saying/doing. She did not feel it necessary to make a referral to SS because she does not see our dc's as currently being in a dangerous/harmful situation and can see him making changes.

She is a very experienced professional and I am/we are being totally honest with her because if she is concerned about dc's welfare and makes a SS referral, then that is what she feels needs to be done and I will accept any consequences.

I was concerned about being totally honest at the start and was worried about SS involvement but I am here to protect my kids, not my DH.

We do have a professional involved who is aware of all the details.

DH is also being honest and willing to accept any consequences, SS or
otherwise, for his actions as he knows that he has been an arse.

I think the thing I'm worried about for you, is that this is very, very early days of his "big change" DYKWIM?

It's relatively easy to behave yourself for a month, 2 months, 6 months - my X managed to not be a total bastard for a whole 18 months but he soon slipped back to his old horrible ways (although luckily I wasn't living with him anymore)

I just don't want you to get your hopes up too soon because he is making the right noises. It's not noises you need, it's actions and actions that last forever not just long enough to placate you and get you to STFU.

Thanks Shirley, I need to be aware of that.

I just realised that I accidentally posted in AIBU and meant to post in relationships. I will see if I can get it moved.

I don't think he's got anger management problems, it only seems to be your children he's angry with/around. Does he get angry with other people, in other situations? If not, then he doesn't need anger management. He needs to learn to have empathy with his children and to stop bullying them, because the way things have been must be unbearable for your DC.

Jesus. OK, people can probably change to an extent, but a man who feels entitled to be horrible to a tiny child who has gone through a huge life upheaval (inc probably abuse/neglect beforehand) and is 'not affectionate enough' to him at the age of 2.5 is not ever going to be a nice person. I'm actually horrified that you aren't doing more to intervene and protect your poor daughter from this, and I'm shocked he was allowed to adopt when he's clearly unstable (so much for the people who think children are better off adopted than staying with single mothers who have unplanned pregnancies- I can say with absolute certainty that my children are better off than this poor child who is being expected to fulfil an adult man's expectations of attention when she's had a disrupted life from such a young age).

"so much for the people who think children are better off adopted than staying with single mothers who have unplanned pregnancies" - I don't think many people have thought that since the 1960's - have they?

Children are not taken into care generally as a result of an unplanned pregnancy but for issues a great deal more serious. I don't know any children adopted domestically here in the UK who wouldn't be better off even in this dysfunctional family with a man who clearly has issues than with their birth family.

I can't know the situation of every child adopted on the UK but each one I know personally (and I know quite a few) has suffered from significant physical neglect/abuse and/or sexual abuse as well as exposure to drugs and alcohol.

I'm not trying to defend him and god knows the OP has a rocky and possibly unsuccessful road ahead of her, but if the issues mentioned here would even warrant a visit from social services, let alone a child being removed then I'd be amazed.

I really could have written your OP.
Even had s bit of a realisation yesterday that he is trying and I cried for him

Give it some time, actions speak louder than words
Good luck