How would I know if my brother was manipulating his wife?

[2ddornot2dd]

This follows on from a thread I did in chat - the gist of which was that my brother applied for his daughters school place, and didn't tell his wife for several days. I just thought it was odd and unethical, but lots of MNers told me that he might be controlling and abusive. This isn't something I want to think about my brother, but if he is I am probably the only person who will stand up to him. So what other behaviours should I be looking for.

She has control of her own finances, and her mum and a couple of friends each visit at least weekly, meaning that she goes out at least 3 times a week without any of my family. There are also other visitors who come less often - her Dad, other friends. She always buys something when she goes out, and actually buys too many clothes etc for the kids. She is also part of a choir, and does that on her own. My parents give her lifts to parent and toddler group once a week (but don't stay), and other places if she asks so she has a fairly varied social life for someone with a 1yo and a 4yo (better than mine).

My parents also look after her 4yo for hours on end without any notice - she walks round herself and just stays for meals, so she does get lots of support like that.

To me this doesn't paint a picture of an abused wife. I am fairly sure he wouldn't hit her, but if I have had a warning, I don't want to ignore it.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Why has she not learned to drive is she not allowed? Would that make her too independant.

Doesn't sound very like "classic abuse" on this pen picture (though bear in mind that not all abuse is about hitting or even shouting, it can be far more subtle). It's possible in fact that she is quite high-handed towards him, or that he feels left out regarding the children; in that case the school thing could be a passive-aggressive response that puts some of the power back on his side without exactly doing anything, if that makes sense. Still sounds rather unhealthy though.

You don't like her very much then?

I think you know he is abusive - and this is why you are posting on here (twice).

If I am right, I guess you know what you must do (think of the children girst adn foremost)

She can't drive because of the medication she takes (she is bipolar) DB did actually insure his car for her years ago and try and teach her as she stopped taking the drugs while she was pregnant with DC1, but unfortunately she ended up back in hospital, and back on the drugs.

She is very indecisive, and I wonder if the school thing was just because she couldn't make her mind up, but that doesn't explain not telling her. I don't think she would be high handed with him. He only works 4 days, so he sees a lot more of the kids than my DH does of ours.

No - I don't like her very much, but I don't want her to suffer needlessly.

Thinking of the children is easy to say but difficult to really quantify - aren't they best off in a stable family? Plus with my parents providing so much of the childcare and support DB may well get custody, and if there was a messy divorce and she ended up back in hospital she wouldn't be able to take the kids with her, so she would lose access to them anyway.

The children are happy, and seem relatively well brought up. (by my low standards)

Where does divorce come from? Are they getting divorced then?

Are you going to tell his wife about the school thing?

He told her himself last week (about the time I was taking advice from you). I don't know if he told her he was making the decision, or if he told her it had been done behind her back, but he told her.

No, there is no hint of divorce - she doesn't seem in the least bit bothered. I was just annoyed by the 'think of the children bit' I am trying really hard to think of them and their mother, possibly at the expense of my own family. I am looking for constructive advice on what a manipulative abuser might look like from the outside, so I can decide if it was a one-off, or if intervention might be needed in the future. Then hopefully if it was I might not spend a week wondering what to do (like I did this time).

Sorry, starting to get ranty.

Hmm... if she's bipolar, he might be used to having to make decisions for her during the bad times and finds it a hard habit to break. Not saying he's right to do it, but that may be how the dynamic has developed between them.

If she isn't bothered, though, is it really a problem?

I don't know, I was really shocked by the strength of opinion on the last thread, where everyone was united in saying that he was controlling/abusive/manipulative/having an affair, which really isn't what I think. But if you were in the position where you had a warning and then ignored it and he was abusive then it would be wrong to ignore it.

Just trying my best.

Is there any reason why you can't ask your db why he's chosen to apply to a less good school further away than the outstanding school close to home for your niece?

Yes - he is a snob - the further away one is in a village, the local one is in a town, which was good enough for us, and for his three best mates, but apparently there will be a better class of child at the further away one (I don't believe it, and even if I did, I still think it's a shit reason.)

Do you think your brother is a bully, or a misogynist? You have, after all, known him longer than his wife has. You clearly dislike her, so I wonder why you are so keen to prove that your brother is in the wrong; is this something to do with having felt like the less-favoured child when you were little and still feeling like the less-favoured child now (ie your parents offer more support to your SIL than to you)?

Charbon where on earth did you get that from? Op, have you asked your brother why he's done it secretly? Maybe that will give a clearer picture.

Aargh stupid iPod not showing me all the posts! Sorry charbon.

Aoai

I remember your other post, and I think the thing that set alarm bells ringing for most people was a comment you made about your brother telling his wife that she'd agreed to the school thing all along, and your father being willing to back him up.

Something along those lines (can't find the thread now to check).

It prompted accusations of 'gaslighting' and made your brothers behaviour (and that of your parents) seem rather more sinister. That's probably more the sort of thing you should be looking out for.

I didn't read the other thread (which is probably key), but on the face of it I think either you haven't given all the information for your reasons, or the relationship doesn't seem like it has any grounds for concern based on what you said. If your only issue with him is the school issue, did you ask him why he did not tell her? Are you close? Was he aggressive growing up? If she is bipolar, perhaps he deals with some of these issues with the kids to take the pressure off her. Or maybe that's the roles they have in the relationship?
Am I missing something ?

IME snobbery is often accompanied by a sense of entitlement and self-righteousness which can engender other undesirable character traits such as as a dictatorial or condescending attitude and a disregard of the feelings of others which can on occasion make a personaility abrasive, if not abusive.

Can your brother be laughed out of his snobbishness or does he become angry or defensive if this foibile is pointed out to him?

Short of placing a bug in his home and listening in to the daily interaction of his household you may never know what the state of play is between him and his dw.

It seems to me that you're open to the possibility that your brother is an abuser and all you can do is hold a watching brief and wait to see if time reveals the truth.

I agree with izzy you will never know what goes on in their house behind closed doors.

Abuse doesn't have to be shouting and hitting. It can, and does, take much more subtle forms than that.

I remember your other thread and I think your brother and dad were gaslighting your SIL and conspiring together to make her (if she challenged them) doubt her memory of events. Which is abuse in my book.

Oh I don't know OP, not really your business is it? Strange to have such a level of interest in your brother's relationship. If I were him I'd tell you to butt out, in no uncertain terms.

I don't find it strange at all for the OP to have an interest in her db's relationship with his dw and children, Solpadeine.

If we all display more interest in the lives of others it may result in a decrease in the numbers of adult and child victims of abuse.

Violence and sexual abuse needs monitering, of course...but that doesn't appear to be what's happening here.

Would you like your sibs mulling over your relationship? Adding 2 and 2, making 5? It would drive me nuts.

What seems to be happening here is the possibility that a woman whose mental health problems appear to be under control may erroneously form the opinion that she is unstable as she will not be able to remember something that she didn't do, namely apply to a specific school for a place for her dd.

As for sibs mulling over my relationships, I don't have any concern about anyone speculating about any aspect of my life and I take the view that, should they draw the wrong conclusions, that will be their problem not mine.