Need 'How to talk so DH will listen; listen so DH will talk'... Does it exist?

[Mandyville]

There's an ongoing communication failure here. He says that I jump down his throat whenever he opens his mouth, that I either don't listen to him or that I ignore him and don't care about his opinions. I do feel attacked/criticised by him but completely accept his assurances that this is not his intention. I need the words to say, "Your opinion is important to me" without sounding like a loon. This invariably comes to a head when we are (maybe?) having a disagreement about a decision one of us has made without the other (which I'm thinking is a whole other problem...). He states his opinion. I nod. He says it again. And again. And again. I feel steamrollered. (He tells me this is the point at which he feels I have completely shut down and started blanking him.) It's not that I disagree with him - it's just that I can't think of anything to say. He goes on stating and re-stating his opinion, getting more and more strident until I burst into tears. He then feels totally got-at - like tears are a trump card he can't beat. (Disclaimer: I am very pregnant.)

An example would be...
Me: I cancelled the milk, by the way
DH: Why did you do that?
Me: They put the price up again - it doesn't seem like good value any more.
DH: How much does it cost now?
Me: (Names price).
DH: And what is that in comparison with Tesco?
Me: (Waffles a bit and gives a broad range)
DH: Is it £1 cheaper or £2 cheaper, then? Oh, I suppose it doesn't matter exactly.
Me: I did look on the website - can I show you?
DH: No, no, I trust you. I just think it's nice to support a local trader.
Me: I know. I do feel bad.
DH: Why?
Me: Well, like you said.
DH: But I trust your judgement.
Me: OK, thank you.
DH: I just mean that local traders struggle and if we want their services to be available in the future we should support them.
Me: Do you think I should un-cancel?
DH: What do you think?
Me: Well, I just thought the price difference was too much.
DH: OK. I see what you mean. I was just thinking about the future and if we might want our milk delivered while you're on maternity leave.
Me: I hadn't thought about that...
DH: And if we don't support the milkman, he might not be in business when we want him.
Me: So you do think I should re-think this...?
DH: No, not at all!
(And so on, ad infinitum until...)
DH: Look, if you don't care about what I think, then fine.
Me: Waaaahhh!

It seems insane to keep arguing this way. What can I do? He says he doesn't want me to change what I DO - which only leaves changing what I SAY.

Thanks for reading if you got this far...! Any ideas?

Shameless bump because DH will be home in an hour.

I don't see anything in the above conversation that might make me feel steamrolled.
You decided something, he's not comfortable with it, he's trying to make you see his point.
Am I missing something?

All sounds very familiar to me! I've just bought a stack of parenting books to help me try to fathom out how to deal with 3 yr old DD (including HTT) and was thinking just the other day that an equivalent for adult relationships would be useful! I haven't got any useful advice I'm afraid though. Also I can sympathise with the tears thing - I'm also pregnant so probe to emotional outbursts during every argument which I agree doesn't help.

As an aside, I don't think the HTT stuff is working with DD either - or more likely I am getting it wrong - she has now started saying to me in a patronising tone, "mummy, I understand that you want me to do x, but..."

coffee I think that's EXACTLY how DH sees it. But when I ask whether he would like me to revisit my decision he always says "no". I DO see his point. How do I tell him that? These conversations can go on for what seems like hours with him stating his case, me asking if he'd like me to change what I'm doing and him saying no. Am I misinterpreting "no"? You seem to get what's in his head - help! What should I be saying/doing?

Thanks, umbrella - that made me !

He is obvioulsy not agreeing with you but doesn't want to say so. He seems to wait for you to change your pov but will prob says he never asked/wanted you to.

Either he is very worried about stating his views or he is PA.

Personnally, I would not go on and on trying to make him say what he is actually implying. I would stop very quickly when he said he trusted your judgement and just said 'Oh that's good then.' and leave the conversation at that.
I would also have a conversation with him about the need of being up front because in order to find a solution you need both parties to actually state clearly what is their pov.

Don't know if you are misinterpreting his no, but he does not mean no.
he's only saying no because that's what you he thinks that's what you want to hear.
I don't know his reason for doing that - he might like being a martyr type, or he's afraid of your tears, so he hopes you'll come round to his way of thinking. So many options.
Give him facts and let him see you're right. Tears will only make him confused.

It sounds like he, while outwardly seeming to agree with you, is attacking your point of view. This doesn't seem to be an attempt to get you to change your mind, so much as make you feel insecure/uncertain and beg for his validation. Then he can accede to your original opinion, while having made it subtly clear that he does not support it.

While this is no great worry when it comes to milk (although talk about a flipping guilt trip - 'when you have a baby, you won't be able to get milk delivered to give to him/her, all because of your selfish thoughtlessness. You BAD MOTHER') does he do this a lot?

Christmas I think he IS passive aggressive, but not terminally so. He's from quite passive aggressive stock and I think it's habit more than temperament. I tend to ask what would make him feel good about a particular situation - but his invariable response is that he's happy if I'm happy. And yet every three months or so we end up with neither of us being happy, even though I'm still OK with the outcome we were ostensibly arguing about. Maybe I'm just carrying on too long... But it feels as though he's the one stating and re-stating and re-hashing and going on and on and... What I REALLY want is to end the conversations. Maybe you're right - I should just be properly determined and end them.

tigermoll that's how it feels to me too, but he always seems genuinely upset and confused at the end. I feel as though he's trying to make me doubt my own mind - he says he's trying to understand my position. The thing that makes me feel better about the situation is that he is always the one who ends up apologising - but not until after we've suffered through a couple of days of atmosphere (which really IS passive aggressive).

The milk things was a hypothetical . The arguments differ but the end point is the same.

I think you need to be more confident with your decisions. Don't ask him if he thinks you should change the decision. You're an intelligent adult. You have the right to make basic decisions.

"I've cancelled the milk because I thought it was getting to expensive" should be sufficient.

If it is a decision you don't feel you can make alone, say something like...

"How important is it to you to have milk delivered? The price has gone up and it would probably be cheaper to buy from Tesco. If it's important to you that we continue to pay a milkman then... if not, I will cancel it tomorrow" End of!

Keep the discussion short. Keep to the point. Say what you think.

But if it is a decision you feel you can and should make yourself, then stick to your guns and don't hesitate, and certainly don't offer him the opportunity to change your mind.

When the baby is born there will be a lot more decisions you will have to make and you need to feel confident to do that without looking for reassurance at every turn. It's very easy to pick an argument with (or even bully) someone who is insecure about their decisions. Much harder when someone is confident in their own judgement.

coffee yes, the tears are half the problem. I need to stop/divert the conversations before I get that far. But if I give him facts and he still clearly disagrees (but claims to trust me)...?

So, I have a couple of tactics. End conversations and mean it. Produce facts. Ignore the "no, I don't think you need to re-visit this" business and revisit things which he raises this way.

Sorry cross posted

I feel as though he's trying to make me doubt my own mind

Trust yourself. This most probably IS what is happening.

he always seems genuinely upset and confused at the end

Yes, and I expect that means that YOU end up being the one who spends time and effort trying to reassure him/make him feel better.

he is always the one who ends up apologising - but not until after we've suffered through a couple of days of atmosphere

So he manipulates you, makes you suffer his moods for days on end, and then convinces you that everything's fine, really, by choosing his moment to apologise? I expect by then, you are so relieved to have the bad atmosphere lift that you are extra loving and grateful to him for deigning to be nice to you.

This is bullying. Has he always been like this, or has it got worse since you became pregnant?

ceni, there's one already here (and another on the way)! We don't fight about the kids, fortunately. We generally agree - and when he raises an issue (e.g. discipline, eating etc.) it's usually something I think needs fixing too. I'm very relieved about that, actually. Most of the fights are about the house, domestic or admin/organisation stuff. We're together on kids, money and jobs. Thank fuck!

But, yes, I do agree with you - I just want the fighting to stop too!

Well if he is PA, then I would really recommend not to engage in conversation like this and try and make him say his pov. You won't manage, he will get upset, you will too.
You need to stop the conversation much earlier on by a statement of fact (not of your pov if that makes sense).

Re your example of a particular sitaution, I would leave him in charge of deciding himself and not put all the responsability onto you (I'm happy if you are but then this doesn't make me happy and I expect you to know that and take it into account).

Now for whatever reason I get the feeling that taking a joint decision, where yu've actually negociated a solution, is something you find difficult?

Sorry lots of xposts

BTW if there is an 'atmosphere' as you say (I imagine he is getting grumpy and doesn't talk?). Ignore and actually put on a show to be really happy, like you don't care.

Worked a treat with my PA husband.

tigermoll it's certainly not very nice. If he is being a bastard (and I periodically think he is) - is there anything I can do to stop myself from being a victim?

This is ALWAYS worse when we are tired/stressed. This has gone on through our ENTIRE 20 year relationship. We love each other, and we love our kids. We need to find a way to make it work. Sometimes it doesn't happen for a couple of years. Sometimes (like now) it happens every three or four months. Neither of us are saints, but I think this is HIS problem. However, I can only change my response to it - I can't change him.

Christmas - he would certainly say so! I have a reputation (in the home and elsewhere) as something of an autocrat. I certainly don't find it easy to take joint decisions. That's something I could work on - and it might explain why these fights are about things I consider small beer. DH obviously finds the small beer symptomatic of a wider problem (or he really cares about them in a way I don't). We do take joint decisions on money, kids and jobs - but not in other spheres. At home we both behave like the one 'in charge'...

Your hypothetical conversation would drive me nuts too! It seems like if he can't get you to agree that he is right, then he won't take responsibility for the decision himself. I could imagine if you had to decide on a restaurant, he wouldn't do anything sensible like "you choose this time, I'll choose next time" or vice versa, it would be all "no you choose" then making it obvious he'd rather be somewhere else, or else trying to make you 'choose' the place he wanted, so if something went wrong, he wouldn't be responsible as it was your 'choice'.

Give him facts. Stick to what you say. keep calm.
He might be unable to make up his own mind, which is why he needs all re reassurance.

squirrel yes! And if I put that to him, he always asks: "Have I ever blamed you for anything?" Well, not in so many words, no...

I think you are very right to say that this is his problem, and that you can't change him. He has to want it to change.

But you are aware of the pattern, and so can take steps to break it. Reading back through the dialogue you have given us, where do you think that you could have stopped the discussion? The game that he plays is making you ask for his validation for a decision, then refusing to give it. You can deal with that by either a) stopping asking for his validation, or b) accepting what he says at face value, even if you know it to be insincere.

His response to this will tell you whether he is genuinely indecisive or just looking to make you feel insecure and unsettled. If it is the latter, he will shortly make another attempt to make you doubt yourself. Then you can call him on it.

Yep, the only thing you can do is change your reaction. But then changing your reaction can help him vhnage his too.

The good thing is that you are able to discuss the 'big' things. So if you were talking children, how would the conversation go? Is there anything in there that you could apply to your 'small' issues?