Can I have your opinion on this please?

[alternateID]

Something happened between me and H a few weeks ago which I considered to be a marriage ending event. The short version is that after nearly 3 months of problems between us, caused by his (not entirely unfounded) jealousy he flipped and attacked me verbally and physically. It happened after a very large amount of alcohol had been consumed by both of us during a night out together, but we had actually been having a very nice time and there was no hint of bad feeling or tension between us directly before it happened. In fact, we had just had sex. Suddenly his mood changed and he started screaming at me and calling me all kinds of disgusting names. He was just so clearly full of hate and anger. I was utterly shocked and after a few minutes I tried to get away from him and he grabbed me by the arms and continued to shout obscenities in my face. He wasn't hurting me but I was very scared. Eventually he pushed me away from him sharply and I landed on my back on the bedroom floor. He then climbed into bed and fell asleep. The next morning he couldn't remember anything much but had a hazy recollection of holding me by the arms. I had three sets of bruises on my upper arms which lasted a week or so and a sore back and shoulders which lasted a day or two.

Now, here's the thing. I considered this to be a deal breaker. Ok, so he didn't beat me up or anything, but he left bruises on me and terrified me. I honestly thought it was a no-brainer, just completely unacceptable. However, I have told the story to a small number of people (including a counsellor which H voluntarily went to see after this happened) and without exception they have all played it down. No one has said to me that that kind of behaviour is unacceptable. Both the counsellor and my mother have effectively taken his side I feel, and made me feel like I have massively overreacted to what he did.

There are some mitigating factors I suppose, I have had feelings for someone else but not acted on them in any way. H knows about my feelings and knows I haven't done anything about them but he has been tortured by jealousy for months and is very stressed as a result. In my opinion this does not in any way excuse his behaviour but everyone else I've spoken to seems to feel otherwise. Who's right? I would really appreciate some honest opinions. Thanks.

I know you are looking for validation for your feelings - but the important thing to realise is that you don't need it. You are entitled to feel this is a deal breaker for you. Fuck anyone else.

I can't say whether the event would be a deal breaker for me or not, I've been though enough shit in life to know that you don't always deal with something the way you think you would and that there are 101 variables that can change any seemingly similiar situation. What is far more likely to be a deal breaker for me in this situation is him playing it down and it almost seems like he thinks 'roughing you up' wasn't that bad & that it's being made into a mountain out of a molehill.

SGB I know you're right, it just doesn't feel fine. I find that I am asking myself if it was really a violent incident, as it didn't hurt me at the time, I only discovered the bruises the next day.

Sorry x-posted as I took a while to write the post.

He definitely blames me and the feelings I had for the other person on his actions

Until he sees that this is utter shite there is no way I'd even consider having him back.

Why are you seeing his councillor? Is that right or normal? Genuine question.

I completely agree with what SGB says. He hounds you because he worries about your fidelity, throws a drink at you wtf, and assaults you when admitting on here to an attachment to somebody else. What are you rescuing in this ma`rriage?

counsellor duh

ChippingIn yes I guess I am looking for validation for my decision really. I agree the playing it down was very shocking for me. He won't say it out loud but it's clear he does think I'm making a mountain out of a molehill in a way. I did not expect that from him at all, I expected that he would be as horrified as I was and I am astonished that he has found one excuse after another to keep drinking. Apparently it is ok at the moment because he is no longer living here, but if we sort things out and he moves back in he will stop drinking completely because he doesn't want me to be afraid of him

SGB has really hit the nail on the head here, as ever. He sounds like a jealous, inadequate arse. You can think what you like, fantasise about whatever you like, do whatever you like and it's not up to him, he doesn't control you. Grabbing someone hard enough to leave bruises and throwing a drink over someone constitutes two separate counts of assault. This isn't normal behaviour in a man-woman relationship, evidence of passion or how much he loves you - that's all bullshit, people shouldn't try to normalise violence.

Wishing you well.

AgnesBligg I don't know any others in the area. She seemed nice enough and she also does couples counselling and mediation so I thought there might be continuity whatever we decide to do in the future. I did have some doubts about it but she said it's not really a conflict of interest situation.

I apologise for all the x-posting, I am very slow at typing.

Thank you SalmeMurrikAgain and everyone. I am getting quite emotional now. I know that everything you are telling me is utterly correct, it's just good to see it in black and white in front of me, for those moments when my resolve is weakening and I start to doubt myself.

He hurt you. it's not good.

alternateID - I'm not surprised you are emotional. Something very scary happened, you thought you knew how to deal with it, then the people around you made you doubt yourself, now you are getting some validation that what you did was OK. It's a horrible roller coaster. Only you know all of the facts and only you know how you feel - it really, really doesn't matter what anyone else would do, trust your own instincts.

He said that he would stop drinking so that you wouldn't be scared of him (if you got back together), so I think he does actually acknowledge (to himself) how bad this was, even if he wont admit it out loud. I would turn that around on him and tell him that until he proves to you he can stop drinking, you wont even consider getting back together.

As I said though, for me it's not what happened (because I believe that any of us can snap given the right set of circumstances) but his reaction to what happened and how he's dealing with it now & what he's saying - that would be the real problem for me. I am not for one minute condoning what he did to you - but for me it's what's happened after that's the real issue.

Sorry to hear about this OP. I have a little knowledge of Counselling and it seems pretty odd to me to get you in for one session like that, and then basically leave you floundering whilst you husband continues. You have then had to hear what the counsellor says second hand from your husband. This is a very poor situation. I do know that it is a fact that domestic violence almost invariably escalates although it is obviously a good thing that your husband is seeking counselling.

Sorry ignore most of my previous post, managed not to read the second page where you explained the counselling situation. However I do think it is still a very odd counselling situation. Have you checked that she is properly registered etc?

It would definitely be a dealbreaker for me.

The people in RL who have commented are basically saying that your H is entitled to decide what is unacceptable for him (ie having feelings for another person) and to act upon it, even to the point of scaring and injuring you. You however are not allowed to decide what is unacceptable, basically you have to put up with what is given to you, which in this case is violence. I think those people need to have a long hard look at their attitudes.

FWIW having feelings for someone else is completely normal and harmless as long as you don't act on it. Your DH's jealousy is irrational and dangerous. A caring person would acknowledge that they had a jealousy problem and do something about it, not attack you.

It is sad but unfortunatley not unusual that your friends and family are reacting like this.
YOu have stood up for yourself and know that it is not acceptable ever to be abused or assaulted. By making this decision after one isolated incident you are making others think about where their boundaries are and about how they are treated. By making you feel that you are over reacting/minimising what has happened - what is really going on is that they are minimising the way they are treated. They are essentially saying that they would accept being frightened by their partner and it is ok for their partner to bruise them. It is scary for them that you are acknowledging that it is not acceptable so they want to play it down in order not to rock the boat in their own relationships.
In an age where I think the statistic for a woman leaving an abusive man is something like 21 incidents of abuse before they take action, then I applaud you for doing it. You know your worth. You are worth more than this.
Also, any man who says he will stop doing something as soon as he is allowed home is not taking it seriously and does not acknowledge he has a problem.

How do you know what the counsellor has said? If it is your H teling you what went on during his sessions, I would be very wary of trusting that what he said was true.

And pushing you over is violence. You would tell off a child for doing it wouldn't you, so what makes it OK for an adult to do it?

It would be a dealbreaker for me too.

I think you need to trust your own instincts here. Tell your friends and family that yes it's sad that your relationship will end because of something he did "by mistake" - but it would be a hell of a lot sadder if this behaviour continued to escalate and he seriously injured or killed you "by mistake".

I would never be able to trust him again and the fact that he is downplaying what happened, enlisting the support f other people to make you feel that you are being irrational / unreasonable and refusing to stop drinking etc - that is just as scary to me as the incident itself.

Hello alternateID.
This is my first post but I feel compelled to reply because I have had a very similar experience lately.
I would advise you that it's your decision and yours alone whether or not you stay. You know him best. You know if you feel safe.

I usually disagree with replies that talk about one's own experiences because I think the focus should be on the OP, however in this case I'll make an exception.
My DH went on a night out with chums. He has no apparent ability to know when he's had enough and will drink until he's run out of booze, money, or falls asleep.
He has always been a complete gentleman and totally against violence towards women. He is an ex-cage fighter and kick boxer so knows some moves, but isn't aggressive out of the ring unless he absolute has to be.
So the short version is that he came home and I asked him to sleep in the spare room because when he is that drunk my chances of sleep are zero. I was in bed by the time he got in and no, I didn't think it was my responsibility to go to the spare room myself. I wasn't the pissed one.
I asked him politely to sleep there and all I got was agression back. It culminated in him hurting my wrists and getting my neck in a chokehold before I fought my way free. I was hysterical on the floor. He gave me more verbal and then stomped off to the other room.
The next day he was defensive and told me it was my own fault for standing in his way. The day after he was mortified.
Reactions (the few I have had, as I told only 3 people) have been mixed:

1. If it's out of character and he was that drunk then it's not that big a deal;
2. It's my call on how to take it - I can either make a big thing out of it and leave him or I can use my initiative on whether it was a one-off (this was a counsellor. I think to be fair she was following my lead, as I said I thought it was a one-off having had chance to think about it).
3. Be very careful. This time a drunk chokehold; what next?

(also a bunch of friends on another forum, all of whom advised wariness but to trust my instincts; except one who said to run for the hills.)

Having thought about it I decided it was an isolated incident and so way beyond the usual boundaries of his behaviour that I was prepared to accept it was a drunken mistake. Nothing even remotely similar to that behaviour before. He was the most drunk I have ever seen him. His eyes were terrifying and he was not the man I thought I knew.
It was at the end of October half term and I am still not "over" it.
There have been no violent recurrences but I am struggling with his lack of commitment to making it up to me and regaining my trust.
I wonder some days if I made the right decision. I am a little scared of him now and I hate it. I hate that he knows it too.

Sorry, that was so long and self-centred. I just wanted to explain how I can really empathise with how you are feeling and that whatever you decide may leave you unsure for a while.
Go with your instincts. Although I question my decision to stay I do think I made the right one, but it is taking a helluva lot longer to accept and deal with than I anticipated.

Rosemary: Do please bear in mind that you can change your decision. You can still decide to say, actually, I'm not happy in this relationship, I no longer trust this man and I am going to leave him. You don't have to wait until he attacks you again. And a chokehold is terrifying, you poor girl, no wonder you have flashbacks. It is, I'm afraid, dreadfully easy to kill someone with a chokehold even if the intention is 'just' to scare or deter or punish them.
WHat you might like to think about is whether your H has frightened you in the past. Whether he's ever made 'jokes' about how fabulously big and strong and tough he is. Whether there have been a few incidents of him 'accidently' bumping into you, treading on your toes etc. Basically have you ever previously felt the need to be careful and modify your behaviour in case he gets angry? If there have been previous incidents then this attack on you was not a 'one off' it was a 'level up' and there will be another one.
ALternateID: Some counsellors are crap and it sounds like this one is. Some counsellors, from their training and their own agendas, are focussed on keeping couples together and have only a limited understanding of DV. You can choose to see a different one. You can choose to have a chat with Women's Aid, they will not immediately rush round and haul you off to a refuge, they will listen and advise and help you work out what you want to do.

I think maybe you need a different counsellor, and possibly your H does too, from what you've said, she doesn't sound that great. As far as I'm aware, counsellors should not ever express an opinion (e.g. the drink is not the problem) - their opinions are not relevant to your lives. Counsellors are there to help you find your own answers. They are not there to offer advice or judge what is 'right' or 'wrong'
For example, re the drink thing, she should be asking your H whether he thinks that drink is the problem and getting him to explore that.
This link is to the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy website where you can search for appropriate counsellors in your area www.itsgoodtotalk.org.uk/therapists/ .

Also, I too think that it's up to you as to what is a dealbreaker and what isn't. It's you that has the relationship (or not) with him, not your family or friends.

Regarding ending the relationship. You are free to end your relationship whenever you like, for any number of reasons. It's not up to anyone else to tell you what should do, think or feel. So even if this incident had not occurred, but you had other reasons for leaving him, the people around you should respect that and only offer their opinion if you ask for it.

The fact that he thinks 'assaulting' you is not ok but 'roughing you up is' shows that he is fully prepared to do it again because in his mind it's acceptable. He doesn't seem to realise that they are one and the same.

I would be inclined to report it to the police and see whether they think it's an assault. These people who are playing it down might take it more seriously then because that is exactly what it was. Assault causing actual bodily harm.

The "roughing you up" phrase sent chills down my spine. Would he do this to a child who angered him, or his mum, or a co-worker? Ask the people who have minimised his behaviour if they would also find this acceptable.

During our many years of marriage there have been loads of times when I have driven my DH crazy with my bad temper, but he has never ever resorted to "roughing me up" however much I might have goaded him.

The counsellor sound shit as others have said!

Don't worry dear keep drinking, grabbing your wife physically hard enough to bruise her (don't worry she bruises easy), screaming at her and then throwing her so hard she has a sore back and shoulders for a week! (but don't worry because she bruises easily). He could have seriously harmed you (but don't worry because it was 'just a little rough housing').

What seriously a little rough housing is acceptable in a relationship!

Then to drag you in and say all this as other say and leave you floundering. I am gob smacked. Get your own counsellor don't go back to his!

You can end your marriage for any reason you like (even if he wears pink socks).

Please stay strong you are doing what is right for you.

If he cared about you he would make keeping you safe his priority and would be taking himself away from you under his own decision.

Did your mum and friends actually say to you that you're making a mountain out of a molehill, or is that what he says they said?