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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

A Christmas Misogynist - what do I do?

33 replies

tigermoll · 29/12/2011 16:32

Sorry, this might be a bit of an epic Smile

I have an older brother, who has long had a history of bad r/ships with women. His usual pattern (and by 'usual' I mean 'that this is exactly how all his r/ships have progressed since he was 20, - he is now in his 30s) is to have a LTP, on whom he cheats with a succession of one night stands/short r/ships. After a few years with the LTP, - who, by now is talking about moving in/getting engaged etc - he finds another girlfriend. The old and new girlfriends overlap for a few weeks, often with him breaking up and returning to the old one a few times, until he then fully moves onto the new girlfriend, who usually has no idea about the old one. She then becomes maitresse en titre, and he proceeds with the ONS and, eventually her replacement.

Over the years, I have become more and more concerned about his attitude towards women, - I am really beginning to think he doesn't like them, even hates them. He talks about going to strippers and prostitutes, how he prefers boob job breasts to natural ones, (not because of a size/qualitative issue, but just because he likes the idea of a woman altering her body to please a man, - he has explicitly stated this) he has told me about putting pressure on partners for anal sex, and so on. He also seems to enjoy hurting women and having them still want to go out with him. He has never had a functional r/ship with a woman, and he has no female friends. In fact, he has very few friends he has known for longer than 2 years.

He is my brother, and we have always been close. But this is making it harder and harder for me to like him. He also seems to want me to know for some reason, - he has always come to me and told me these stories, as if daring me to flinch. He also phones me up regularly when it all goes wrong, crying, flagellating himself for how he's behaved, and promising to change, He never does change, natch. He also lies to me, (as well as everyone else) - you never get the full story about what's going on, only just enough to make you feel sorry for him. He has had a few MH issues/brushes with suicide in the past, and will sometimes hint at this if things are going especially badly.

This christmas, he is currently in the 'flitting between two LTR' stage, which he has assured us is 'all sorted out' but then made it pretty clear to me that he is still involved with both of them. This put me in a difficult sitch with our parents, who are worried about him 'not being happy' and him being involved with 'predatory females who won't take no for an answer'. I had to do some pretty hard tongue-biting over that. One day he disappeared off to see current maitresse en titre, but I strongly suspected he was in fact with ex-girlf. I knew he would want to talk to me about it, but I had had enough. When he pushed the point, I told him I didn't want to hear and asked him to leave.

So, what do I do? My current plan is to refuse to talk to him about anything connected to sex/love/his private life ever again, but that is difficult. He drove me to the station and kept trying to get me involved, - even to the point of calling one of the women in front of me and making plans to see her. He keeps hinting and sighing about 'being on his own for NY' but I won't bite.

But do I have a duty to do more than this? I am beginning to be worried about what sort of a man he is, and the damage he does to women. Should I tell his current girlfs what is going on? Should I tell our parents? Should I confront him in strong terms, call him a misogynist and advise him to seek professional help? (he has had concelling in the past but has not stuck at it).

Thanks to anyone who got this far Smile

OP posts:
tigermoll · 29/12/2011 16:36

Not to drip feed, but I should also add he has had to leave jobs in the past because of inappropriate r/ships with his bosses, etc. He also has a history of poor financial choices, (what in a woman might have been more readily identified as a shopping addiction) which has caused his life to grind to a halt more than once.

I'm concerned about him, - he is clearly and obviously not happy. But he is also a wanker.

OP posts:
tigermoll · 29/12/2011 16:37

...oh, and he once had a r/ship with an underage girl that could have lost our mother her job and given him a criminal record. He refuses to acknowledge that it was in any way wrong.

OP posts:
squeakytoy · 29/12/2011 16:40

What do you do? Nothing.

Dont engage with him when he tries to tell you his woes, or his prowessess. Just stop him right away and tell him you are not interested in his love life.

If he has lived in the same place for years, then most of the women who he associates with probably know his reputation, and if they dont, they will probably soon get to hear of it once they meet any of his mates. Men (and women) who behave like him are usually well known for it.

He might surprise you one day, he may just meet his match, and all of a sudden settle down to a quiet monogamous family life, or he may just carry on as he is leaving a trail of destruction and ill feeling behind. I have seen it happen both ways many times.

All you can do as a sister is keep out of it and dont let him near any of your mates!

nailak · 29/12/2011 16:41

If he was a woman what would you say? Sounds like he has serious esteem, and selfworth issues, and could be bipolar.

Bossybritches22 · 29/12/2011 16:45

He has serious "issues" possibly self-esteem/MH ones & it sounds very sad & a downward spiral to me.

No advice really other than maybe you need to stop protecting him from your parents & have a good chat to them about it & confront him as a family. When i say confront I mean reflect back his behaviour & how self-destructive it is & that you want to help & support him but he has to accept that it is HIS responsibility to change, if & only when he wants to.

He may tell you all to fuck off but you may have planted a seed, you just have to sit back & wait & ignore his need to engage with you about his behaviour.

tigermoll · 29/12/2011 16:46

Sounds like he has serious esteem, and selfworth issues, and could be bipolar.

This is one of the things I worry about Nailak, - he gets v angry when I say he ought to behave differently. He seems baffled at the idea that other people can control their impulses in a way he seems unable to (ie spending money, compulsive cheating, etc). What if there is actually something wrong with him? As I say, he has had some counselling in the past, but gets angry with his therapist after a few sessions becasue they 'don't understand' and stops going.

OTOH, the 'I couldn't help myself' defense is a pretty poor one.

OP posts:
babyhammock · 29/12/2011 17:08

He sounds more sociopathic tbh. Very hard to deal with x

Flanelle · 29/12/2011 17:14

There isn't really much you can do, except as you say, train him not to confide in you about it all and definitely stop protecting him from your parents. Or them from him, whichever it is. He might have no MH issues at all and just be an arse, but you aren't one and that has to be enough for you. Just be the best and happiest you you can be and he'll sort himself out, or not, by himself.

inatrance · 29/12/2011 17:18

I can't link properly as on phone but does any of this sound familiar?

www.sociopathicstyle.com/traits/classic.htm

tigermoll · 29/12/2011 17:24

I just had a brief glance through that list, and I would say that he exhibits around two thirds of those traits.

The thing that has always made me think he isn't a sociopath is that he seems to feel remorse (or at least exhibits great outpourings of it, but it seems to have no effect on future behaviour) and can also be quite sentimental, - he cries at RSPCA ads, that sort of thing. He also showed no signs of delinquency whilst growing up, - if anything, he was far more straight laced than I, and has a far more punative conscience.

OP posts:
warmleatherette · 29/12/2011 17:25

Sociopath I reckon. I've been researching this a lot recently and it sounds all too familiar.

tigermoll · 29/12/2011 17:27

Shit, that's kind of scary. What do I do? Should I tell someone?

OP posts:
HecateGoddessOfTwelfthNight · 29/12/2011 17:29

Have you asked him "What would you say to a man who treated me or mum the way you treat these women?"

It's like he doesn't see them as people. Hopefully he sees you as a human being and it might make him think.

OTOH, you might discover something even nastier, so maybe not. Sad

squeakytoy · 29/12/2011 17:29

I dont see why you need to do anything, or tell anyone. He is an adult and while he may have some unpleasant traits in his personality with regards to relationships, he isnt actually committing a crime!

I have known, and still know plenty of men who sound exactly like him .. hell, I have even been out with a few.

tigermoll · 29/12/2011 17:33

Hopefully he sees you as a human being and it might make him think.

Hmmm, I used to think that. But now I'm not so sure. He has shown himself perfectly capable of lying to me just as much as anyone else. I don't think I am that special.

The only special role that I used to think I had was that he came to me for absolution, - to offload all his dreadful crimes and have someone love him anyway. But now I think it may be more a form of bragging, - he seems so angry at women, and I am one of the few that he can't hurt by sexual means. So he makes sure I'm hurt by hearing about it.

It sounds so cold, written like that, but I think its the case.

OP posts:
Spuddybean · 29/12/2011 17:39

i thought bipolar when i read your OP. I was diagnosed with bipolar and this is pretty much how i behaved when i was rapid cycling/manic.

However, you can control it when you see a pattern (if you want to - within reason). He may obviously not be bipolar and just be an arse (altho you can be both - i was).

I would just let him know you are not interested at all and stop him every time he tries to embroil you with his tales. If your parents mention it again i would just answer honestly and let them decide what they think.

Sounds like he wants an audience to his drama.

Sometimes people change, sometimes they don't, but if they do, i think it needs to be of their own accord. He needs his own penny drop moment sadly.

thunderboltsandlightning · 29/12/2011 17:43

Him telling you all about how he treats women and the sorts of things he likes to do them sexually sounds sexually harassing to me. It's really inappropriate for him to be talking to you about this stuff.

"So he makes sure I'm hurt by hearing about it."

I'm sure you're right.

What should you do? Do what you want. Do you want to tell his girlfriends/your parents? If you do, tell them. Do you want to tell him not to tell you any of this stuff any more? If you do, tell him and then keep your boundaries up.

Basically you don't owe him anything, protect yourself and anybody else you feel like you want to protect.

Actually if he's having sex with lots of different women, then he's putting them all at risk of disease.

Charbon · 29/12/2011 21:44

What has his relationship been like with his mother?

Dozer · 29/12/2011 21:52

I think you should focus on how he's treating YOU. It sounds really inappropriate, nasty and horrible and misogynistic towards you as well as his partners IYSWIM.

Also think about why you have allowed him to do this (to you) for so long. As thunder says, you need some boundaries.

Dozer · 29/12/2011 21:55

With respect to your "duty", your main duty is to yourself, your partner and DC (if you have them), not your brother or anyone else.

Flanelle · 29/12/2011 22:46

What Dozer and Charbon said.

tigermoll · 30/12/2011 09:58

His r/ship with our mother is pretty weird, - I think he's very angry with her for childhood reasons (so was I for a while, but I think I've pretty much worked through that. Although am currently having MH treatment, so it's not like I'm some great shining exampleSmile) He uses money to 'punish' her, - he is forever getting himself into debt and she bails him out. Several times, he had to move back in with our parents because he's lost his job, or is behind on his rent, or has racked up such huge debts that he can't carry on. It's always 'the last time' for both of them, but he knows (and I think on some level) so does she, that simply throwing money at the problem isn't actually solving anything.

I think you guys are bang on the money that I need to establish firmer boundaries, - part of the reason I haven't so far is that:
a) it didn't used to be so nasty, - when he was younger, it could be more written off as high spirits/youthful thoughtlessness/naivite/boys being boys etc. But, the older he gets, the more established the pattern. Its sort of crept up on me how deeply unpleasant the whole sitch is.
b) He is my brother and I love him. I am concerned about him and his mental health, and I am pretty sure he doesn't have anyone else to confide in. I suppose I thought, for a few years, that I could sort of steer him in the right direction and give him good advice. I am beginning to think that might be a waste of time.

OP posts:
HoHoHoudini · 30/12/2011 10:17

Sorry, but your last sentence is actually the right one.
It really IS a waste of time, he doesn't want to change.

If he were a member of my family. I'd cut him off totally. It's the only potential way he'll see that you're serious.

You could spend a lifetime trying to help him, but he'll never change. He'll drag you all down with him. Let him go. Your MH will improve.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/12/2011 13:12

I don't think trying to steer him in the right direction is just 'a waste of time' (though it probably is) -it sounds as if it is actively damaging to you and possibly putting a strain on your relationship with your parents, given you're ending up keeping his secrets and biting your tongue. That is not a fair position to put you in. You're not according yourself enough importance here - he is dragging you down.

I don't know if this is fair to say, but I suspect that as long as he depends on you for some kind of support - as he clearly does if he feels it's so important to come to you with all these stories - he'll have the crutch he needs to carry on doing what he's doing.

Are you in a position to tell him what you've told us about how you feel?

Charbon · 30/12/2011 14:26

You do have a bit of leverage and power here OP. I know you're not responsible for saving all the women that your brother damages with his hatred, but there are several things you can do to help them.

You can warn them and refuse to keep his secrets.

You could confront him about his hatred of women.

You could suggest having nothing more to do with him until he gets some professional help to sort out his mother issues, because what you say about him punishing your mother doesn't surprise me - and was why I asked the question.