Would you consider this cheating???

[999HELPMYPUDDINGSONFIRE]

This is an issue that has played on my mind for a long time.
Reason being is that I don't think I can describe it as "cheating" but in my heart it still feels like he did.
So honest opinions please.
We had broken up in January, my decision.
I had previously come out of a bad relationship and he wanted to move too fast at that point.
We met up a few times in jan feb and march, probably once a week for either dinner to see a film or he would drive me to work ( he always asked me I never asked him )
We had a kiss in February where I thought I could make it work but a week later broke it off again.
I went on holiday in april with a friend to clear my head and whilst there I called him and said the time apart had made it more clear it wasn't going to work.
I saw him twice in may, once for his sisters birthday party ( she asked me to go shes only 16 so I went ) and once when my brothers baby was born he came with us to meet him.
I tried constantly to be positive and there were days that went okay an I'd start to think it could work, we had a few hand holding moments etc but then at the end of the day he would ask me to be with him etc and I couldn't give him that.
I realise I shouldn't have kept meeting him but I wanted to love him like he kept telling me he loved me.
He would ring and text me all day everyday begging me
To see him.
Well, in June he decides a holiday is what we need, some time alone just us, to see if my mind changes.
I agree, I'll pay my half.
In June we go out for the day and it was like something suddenly switched.
I wanted to be with him, it was like I fell in love with him all over again.
For the next month things couldn't have been better, little trips away, he got my initial tattooed on his neck as a surprise ( not chavvy by the way although a little rocky I guess! )
Well then I find a message from a girl sent in feb.
I wasn't snooping, he asked me to find a message from his brother in his phone but had obviously forgot to delete it.
It referred to a night they'd spent together so I went mad.
I had asked him the day we had got back together if anything had happened with anyone else, he said no, he loved me and never wanted anyone else.
He actually welled up when I asked him.
Anyway he admits that they slept together, a friends with benefits type thing a few times in march and again in June, the last time being the day before we for back together! Although he said after yet did it she didn't seem that interested in it happening again and was quite distant etc.
Well, he had slept with her on the same day he had booked the holiday for us, other nights he had dropped me to work he had then met her after.
So he had condoms ready in his wallet in my company which makes me feel sick.
He says we weren't doing anything sexual, that we wasn't together, that no matter how much he wanted to be with me it wasn't happening so he turned to her to try and get over me.
He thought if he could sleep with someone else ( he hadn't slept with anyone else before me ) that he would be able to cancel the holiday and tell me where to go, that I'd hurt him enough.
He had also carried on talking to her after we for back together, 4 times
In 3 weeks although she did know we were back together an they didn't meet up again just spoke on the phone although I'll never know if he would have carried on sleeping with her if she wanted to, although my head says he wouldn't have got the tatoo and told her about us of that was his plan.
Why he kept talking to her is beyond me, it was always him ringing her.
He says because when they started speaking again ( the night I broke up with him he called her, she was ex of his friend so they had met a few times the year before when he was with him friend ) that she had listened to his problems for 5 months ( even though they were sleeping together by this point ) so he was just telling her how happy he was that we were back together.
If she had been more up for it on the last occasion would he have been so quick to tell her?
Who knows.
He was telling me he loved me everyday, cried, begged booked the holiday in hope that it would help my mindset and we would be together.
So why sleep with her?? And especially after you decide to pay for a holiday?
Anyone??

I'm not bloody surprised he lied - he probably thought telling you would kill the one and only much wanted chance to be with you. And it shouldn't matter - you weren't together at the time. He was free to fuck whoever he liked and to boom holidays with whoever he liked.

He clearly loves you and didn't want to risk telling you he slept with her, when you clearly have no right to be angry.
He was wanting you back an you refused. You gave him hope and messes him about. You were NOT in a relationship with him when he slept with her. YOU were playing games and generally being unkind to him. He slept with her. If he had started a relationship with her while dating you, that's cheating. If he slept with her while in a relationship with you, that's cheating. He did neither. Either get over it or let them poor man go

You were messing him around for 5 months, about whether you wanted a relationship or not, so it's no wonder he lost patience! I don't think he behaved particularly well in sleeping with another woman whilst actively trying to get back with you, but I don't see it as cheating. It doesn't matter whether MNetters think it's cheating or not, if you can't get over the fact he has slept with another woman, then it's only fair to both of you to dump him, rather than make yourself and him miserable.

You ask "can none of you see how deceitful this is?"

Take a look at the replies, CLEARLY NOT. But I think we could have it skywritten by a plane above your house and you STILL would think we are all wrong. You have asked on a public forum and have received the SAME reply from a cross section of impartial people.

But you know what? Here- He was wrong. He cheated. He doesn't deserve you. It doesn't matter that you were on a break. You should finish with him.

There you go. Now it can end.

I think you should dump him. For no other reason than You'd be doing him a massive favour.

Friends will sometimes tell you what they think you want to hear and if, in your own words, you're a 'black and white' type of person it would be understandable if some of your friends avoid embroiling themselves in any disagreement with you.

You say this issue has been on your mind for 'a long time'.

You've also said that you have been with this man for '3 happy years'.

Are you harping on about something that happened a few years ago, or did you end your relationship with him in January of this year after 2 of those 'happy years' and get back with him in June?

Either way, I'm getting the feeling that barely a day has gone by without you tormenting yourself and him over a matter that should have been resolved months, if not years, ago, and this would appear to give the lie to those 'happy years' you claim to have shared with him.

If you persist in claiming that black is white or vice versa I can only hope that your initial, which he was besotted enough to have tattooed on his neck, can easily be transformed into a less permanent reminder of the 'happy years' he's shared with you as, unless he's more doormat than man, I can't imagine he'll put up with your rants for much longer.

Thanks for being so honest, maybe my friends just agreed with me for the sake of it

Can you not just let it lie and resolve not to mention it again?

I'm not sure :-( I really want to.
I don't want to lose him and he's a wonderful dad.
I couldn't ask for more.
I guess it's more that he's not the perfect guy that I thought was just waiting around for me. I thought he was something that he wasn't as stupid and selfish as that sounds.

You're never going to find the perfect guy unfortunately, because perfect doesn't exist.

It just doesn't sound like you're that into him. There's nothing wrong with that, but you need to let him go, it's not fair on him.

Are you perfect?

Frankly, you sound horribly opinionated and desperately insecure and while these may not be 'faults' per se they are far from being desirable personality traits.

However, in recognising that you thought he was something he wasn't/isn't, you are at least admitting that it may not be entirely his fault if he's failed to meeting your exacting expectations.

Is he the biological father of your dc?

You thought he was something he wasn't? What, he wasn't willing to stay at home on his own lonely, moping and wasting his life while you arsed about expecting him to be free, ready and waiting when you felt like it?

Yes he is the biological father of our children.
I do accept my expectations of him were very high but I do feel that he led me to see him as this perfect man de aerated by our split willing to do anttjobg and everything to make us work. All png he was shahging someone else. I see that it's not cheating but it is decietful and I don't thi I it's right of him to sleep with someone else whilst booking a holiday to see if it would work out with me.
It kind of defeats the object, no?

I'm not saying how I feel about this is right hence my asking for other opinions.
If I was so opinionated etc I wouldn't be seeking advice.

Of course it wasn't cheating, you had given him the boot. What did you expect him to do, if not look for comfort? You had rejected and hurt him, and he was an emotional mess... probably wondering what the hell he was going to do with the mess that was his life.

Can you not sympathise with him for sleeping with someone else during that time? A time when his confidence was probably at an all-time low, when he felt defeated and hopeless and horrible? Would YOU not take whatever comfort you could get, if you were in his position?

You can't punish HIM for the fact that YOU placed him on a pedestal, and then proceeded to basically torture him in an attempt to "prove" to yourself that he was perfect... that no matter how badly you rejected him, he would still be slavishly devoted to you... that is ridiculous. Do you actually WANT to be with someone who is emotionally immature enough to follow you around like a puppy dog, when you are telling him he hasn't got a chance? Can you not see how sick it is to want something like that? Only a personal with psychiatric problems would be able to give you what you want.

He is not perfect. He is going to hurt you. You are going to hurt him. If you can't accept these things, do not waste your time on relationships. They ALWAYS include things that are not perfect, there are no perfect people out there.

You sound like hard work and I feel very sorry for him. He is mixed up with someone who wants him to be perfect, and will punish him mercilessly for not being so. And will even bad mouth him to her friends! For no worse crime than being a normal human being! It must be hell on earth.

so he slept with her in June wen you had decided to book a holiday together?

yes, that's cheating.

By your own admission, when he booked the holiday he DIDN'T KNOW that you were going to stop toying with him.

He booked the holiday in the hope that it would lead to you resuming your relationship. How was he supposed to know that you'd change your mind yet again and take him back the next day?

In the time that you didn't want him, he had sex with another woman. Bully for him.

And when you decided you wanted him again he immediately stopped having sex with the other woman. Bully for you.

It seems that he wants you as you are with all of your flaws. If you don't want him as he is with all of his flaws, set him free again and this time make it a final break.

Out of curiousity, why did you end the relationship in January and what did you have any dalliances with other men while you were apart?

Yule : are you being sarcastic or serious?

Izzy : are you make or female?
Just wondering really!
Yes I briefly saw someone for 5 weeks from April to mid may.
He was well aware of this and constantly asked me no to meet the other guy anymore etc.
You are right, he had no idea I would change my mind the next day and when I suggested getting back together he did say, don't fuck about, only say it if you mean it.
I stand by it was pointless booking and planning a holiday however in the hope of working thi gs our with me and then continuing to sleep with her.
Thats the part I'll never fully understand as it just seems pointless although he maintains that had he got over me and felt stronger from sleeping with her he would have cancelled the holiday and told me where to go.

I suppose some of it is because I feel that I was so honest, maybe too honest and he wasn't. He lied even when directly asked.

If you look at this thread as an example, your going over the issue again and again has led posters to give up and give you the answer that they think you are looking for. Obviously there is an element of sarcasm there, but this may also be the way that your DH ends up feeling when you discuss this topic, and so maybe why he elected not to mention the other woman (who he had done nothing wrong with anyway).

As Professor Ross Gellar would say "you were on a BREAK"

He didn't know that the 'make or break' holiday would result in a reunion and he was keeping his options open, and why not?

You'd called time on your relationship and had then blown hot and cold, taken up with another guy, and generally led him a merry dance. For all he knew, you might have found someone else by the time the holiday rolled round.

Throughout the time you were apart he made it clear that you were the one he wanted, and he proved it by immediately ceasing sexual relations with the other woman as soon as you said you wanted a reconciliation.

There's honesty - and there's honesty to the point of bluntness that spares no thought for the feelings or sensitivites of others. I suspect that you incline to the latter. Perhaps it's time for you to try and put yourself in his shoes and give his ear drums a rest.

FTR last time I checked I was definitely not a 'make' - or on it.

You sound similar to how I felt about 4 years ago with my now husband. Yeah you've heard rubbish stuff but it's how you deal with it after. I seriously recommend getting yourself to the doctor and saying you feel anxious and jealous and that you want counselling after your rubbish situation in last relationship and the fact you (just what it sounds like) the lack of love for yourself you need to deal with that before you can love others. Maybe you didn't have a great relationship with your parents or something and your trying to validate that with your current love. Anyway you have a lot of work to do to get over this and it's up to you if it's worth it or not. Can you really see yourself without him for you and your child

He isn't obliged to tell you details of what he's doing when you're not together, so I don't see his actions as deceitful at all, holiday booking or not. In fact, he might have felt that he was sparing you if he knew you'd react like this to something that was none of your business.

The facts seem to be:

You broke up with him
You led him to believe there might be a chance and then withdrew that repeatedly for months (quite cruel behaviour)
He tried and hoped to change your mind
He also tried to get over you by sleeping with someone else
You changed your mind and he ceased his relationship with the other person immediately

If you ask me, he has behaved very honourably towards you and you're very lucky you still have a chance with him. Do you want it though? You say he's not what you thought he was. I would think he's better than you thought he was. You seem to think he should be a simpering doormat who sits by the phone waiting for you to change your mind and loving only you regardless of how you feel about him. If he was like that, then trust me, THAT would be a problem.

If you love him and have children together, then you have to get past this.

For the record as you've asked others, I'm female.

P.S merry Christmas. Hope you celebrate by being nice to one another.

I didn't mean that last P.S to sound harsh - should have added I really do hope you can put this behind you and move forward in 2012.

So it's not cheating for you to date another man when you were "on a break", but it is for him .