How can I help DH? Warning: long, contains family cr*p, sorry!

[MrsMcEnroe]

There is such a long back story to this that I'm not really sure where to start. I really need some advice on how to help my DH come to terms with his relationship with his family. So I'll dive in:

DH has one brother, a year older than him, who is married with 4 DC. DH and I have 2 DC. We live 250 miles away from DH's brother, parents etc who all live in the same town.

BIL and SIL haven't got on with FIL & MIL for many years, for various reasons, despite still unashamedly using MIL for free childcare all the time whilst criticising her behind her back and generally being really nasty about her. MIL isn't a bad person at all; she has done a few thoughtless things in her time but never anything harmful and she adores her grandchildren and always helps my SIL and BIL out financially whenever she can too (without telling FIL, see below). She has been married to FIL for over 40 years and is just waiting for him to die so that she can inherit all his money and start her own life without him!

FIL is a different kettle of fish; he has very serious MH issues which sadly have never been formally diagnosed by a doctor and, at the age of 65, he's certainly not going to go to one now. Having known him for 15 years I'd say that he suffers from severe depression, severe anxiety which manifests itself with OCD-type symptoms, and also he is very stuck in his ways, obsessed with hoarding away his money, quite controlling of MIL (who has enabled his shocking behaviour over the years, for the sake of having an "easy life"). When DH and BIL were kids he used to have a very explosive temper (he never physically harmed anybody but he would yell, scream, swear etc) and MIL, DH and BIL were terrified of him. The whole household was ruled by his black moods, and DH and BIL were sent away to boarding school when they were about 6 or 7.

BIL is cr*p brother in that he never returns DH's phone calls, forgets his birthday, never follows through on plans to meet up (bear in mind that we have to travel 250 miles to see them, with our DC who are seriously carsick and have to be drugged up to the eyeballs in order to get through a 5-hour car journey without vomiting copiously) etc etc and DH ADORES his brother and longs for more attention from him. We thought about moving to the same town as DH's family a few years ago, but BIL told DH that he didn't want us living near him. DH has had loads of counselling to help him deal with his family issues (he is what you would call a "boarding school survivor" in that he is still utterly traumatised by having been sent away so young, he longs for his dad to apologise for it - which will never happen - and longs for any crumb of proactive affection from his father and brother). However, DH cannot and will not accept that his family will not change. MIL won't get involved in the relationship between DH and BIL; she says that it's not her place but really it's because it would require courage and hard work, neither of which are her strong suit - she wants an easy life (and I'm not really sure that she should be interfering in the relationship between her adult children anyway, BIL is 40 & DH is 39, I don't know what I would do in her situation).

SIL loathes FIL and MIL, does nothing to encourange the relationship between BIL and his parents yet constantly uses MIL for free childcare and even leaves her DC alone with FIL, which I would never do as I consider him to be a danger to himself and others.

Finally, the communication between the entire family is awful.

DH walks in to the lounge all teary-eyed on Sunday. He's been speaking to MIL on the phone, who has told him that they are so chuffed that they've been invited round to BIL & SIL's house for lunch on Christmas Day - the first time in years. I'm really happy for MIL; she deserves to spend some time with her grandchildren and it will be lovely for her not to have to spend all day alone with my miserable wretch of a FIL who is, honestly, far more awful than I've made him out to be in this post. However, DH is gutted because we haven't been invited too; it was his birthday 2 days earlier and BIL still hasn't phoned or even sent a card. Frankly I wouldn't want to spend Christmas with any of them; we last tried that 4 years ago and it was utterly horrendous. FIL had some kind of temporary breakdown / tantrum (there's definitely an element of free will in his awful behaviour), wouldn't sit in the same room as us, and MIL told us after that disastrous visit that we couldn't ever stay in their house again as she couldn't cope with the stress from FIL.

So - DH feels sidelined, ignored, not valued, not part of the family etc etc. We have already spent thousands and thousands of pounds on counselling - CBT and talk therapy of various kinds, and hypnotherapy/NLP which he was very uncomfortable with - and DH is still no nearer to accepting that his family won't change. He still wants them to change for his sake, and he has been on anti-depressants for years (he was suicidal at one point, many years ago, and is on long-term medication which has helped him loads). He wants his family to want to spend time with him. He wants his brother to want to see him, which BIL doesn't want to do - he is a very selfish man, just like his father. DH is a lovely, caring, gentle, funny, gorgeous man with a devoted wife (me!) and beautiful DCs, but he still longs for validation from his parents & brother, which he will never get. How can I help him? I know that he has to help himself, but I suppose I'm wondering if there is any form of therapy that would help him come to this realisation quicker? From a selfish perspective, I've had 15 years of this sh*t and I'm not sure how much longer I can let DH's horrible family taint our own family life, which is lovely and works really well as long as we don't see them often and I can keep DH distracted enough not to think about them. This isn't a long term solution though!

If anyone has read to the end of this post they deserve a medal. I think I need a after all that ... I've never written this all down before. And I've left loads out!

How can I help DH? I've been trying for 15 years ...! I can't bear seeing the man I love in pain like this, and I want to knock his family's heads together.

Poor you, it sounds like a total nightmare. But yes, you need to start protecting yourself; you've done everything you can to help your DH and we all have our limits. Could you set time limits for discussions of these issues or have a stock phrase you use to end them? '(I'm really sorry, sweetheart, but they are just not going to change', or something like that.)

It is so easy to be dragged into these situations and there is actually nothing more you can do. He needs to make the mental leap himself.

My advice is simple, accept that this is just the way you dh family is and that frankly theres nothing you can actually do about it. Stop spending cash on therapy that plainly dh is ignoring to some degree or he would have already got through this a bit more. Stop letting dh contacting them to discuss things, they may dread another conversation about this as they are plainly happy in their lives with things just the way they are or they would have already changed. Use that cash saved and booked a darned hot holiday somewhere lovely. Canaries are always hot at Christmas. I recommend the La Palma Princess in La Palma. 4star hotel, quiet pretty island and just take a break.....

and bonk like billy ho! :0) have a great time x

Fair enough then. It sounds like there isnt much more your husband can do. I think maybe one last letter perhaps to his brother, outlining the fact that he has tried for years in the hope that they could have a relationship, but it seems clear that will not happen, so he is now going to move on with his own life, say that if his brother does ever change his mind, and need him, the door will be open, but for the time being, he will back off and leave them to their lives.

As I say, I imagine things will change one way or another after one of the parents dies, but until then your husband has to accept that he cant force people to change, and his behavour is going to ruin his own nearest and dearest who have done nothing wrong. Tell him that the last thing he would want is for his own children to suffer in the way that he has, and his behaviour will affect them, because it is affecting you and their dad, and this will filter down if it carries on.

Not sure about the "not letting DH contact his family" bit Ciccolina - I have no right to stop him - but yes, we will be going to the Canaries next Christmas and thanks for the recommendation!

Thanks squeakytoy. You speak a lot of sense. I like your approach. DH was muttering about "one last letter" last night and I silenced him with a filthy look, but in the cold light of day I think you could well be on to something with that idea, as it could give DH some sort of closure.

(BIL HATES receiving DH's letters as it forces him to face up to things, which is the last thing he wants to do. So, on that basis alone, I might encourage DH to go for it, as BIL has got away with this crap for far too long!) Sorry - feeling a bit selfish now. I might step away from this thread for a bit!

Thanks very much to everyone for your thoughts and opinions, it is all hugely appreciated. I'm off to check out the Stately Homes thread now

Your poor DH is stuck as that little 6 year old who wants his mummy and his daddy and his brother to love him, but they can't, don't and never will They are very damaged people and your husband's neediness towards them makes them behave even more badly because it makes him look weak, so they have no respect for him.

Would your husband be willing to negotiate an amount and type of contact with his family which enables him to be in touch but doesn't cause all this negativity, upset and anguish in his REAL family, who love him and care for him NOW? Because as you say, it has a powerful effect on the rest of you and your husband needs to take the decision that a father and husband needs to take, which is to concentrate on doing things that make things better for his wife and children and to severely limit the things that make them worse. His family makes things worse and it is quite self indulgent of him to keep on causing his own mental health problems.

I meant to add, there comes a time when hand patting, soul searching, and sympathising has run it's course, and direct straight talking is needed to make someone stop feeling sorry for themselves.

It sounds harsh, but my husband would agree that he was his own worst enemy when he was having a breakdown, and he NEEDED someone who would be strong and make him pull himself together, rather than someone who just "listened" and made the right noises at the time.

It sounds like your husband is expecting two things.. his family to have a change of heart, and therapy to fix it all. I dont think either are going to work, certainly not the therapy that he has had so far. I would wonder perhaps if because the therapy has been private and paid for, that some of these "therapists" are quite happy to sit there and listen, and not really want a result, because it then means less money in the bank for them..

Cynical ... maybe, but we live in a world where these days therapy is seen as the all fixing answer, and many people have jumped onto that bandwagon as a way to make money rather than because they care about getting their clients sorted out.

As I said early, therapy did work for my husband, but it was with a NHS counsellor, whose motives are not getting money from her clients.

Perhaps point out to your husband that he runs the risk of his own children growing up and avoiding him if he continues to be so asborbed in his own world to the detriment of enjoying the family he has created with you.

I know this is not the point of your post (which I did read to the end, btw) but I felt for you about your parents. It is particularly painful when you have wonderful parents, and then they die so your children can't get to know them as they grow up. And then to have such dreadful people - because that is what they sound like - being the dcs' remaining grandparents must be rubbing salt in the wound. I just wanted to say that that is another thing you may be dealing with, and you seem to be dealing with it all very strongly.

I know you say you have experienced a breakdown, so you understand. But you also said that the specific causes were sorted out now. Perhaps your dh's causes can't be sorted out to the same extent/timetable because his family are still here and behaving as they do. There's no saying exactly how the family dynamics will change when FIL dies - your dh's mother and brother could act in unforeseen ways, which might be positive and might not. Somehow your dh needs to learn to live with his loss (which it is, a kind-of pre-death bereavement, not having the family he wanted and needs). When your own parents die, you realise that you are the grown-up now, and that it's all down to you. It feels free, but also scary. Your dh needs to be his own person, focussing on you and your children, who are his most important family now. I hope he manages somehow - because it is he who needs to do it, you can't do it for him - to do the thing he needs to do, which is to be the strong, independent adult who helps, with you, to create the family life that he never had, with love and good adult relationships to pass on as a template to his own children,

Ah gawd, not sure how helpful any of that is, but I'll post as I've typed it out

I am sure that a lot of my family would say that I act like your BiL... The reasons are too long and complex to go into- but I would be utterly horrified if a member of my family moved closer to me. TBH it would affect my own mental health.
I did move once myself to be nearer them, but it just brought up a lot of long buried toxicity and made it much much worse. The same would go for a letter - if I was your BiL I wouldn't read it.
My dad went through the same thing with his own father and had a complete breakdown when he died- as then he finally realised that he would never have the Father he wanted. It blighted my childhood, and his relationship with my mum- probably why I am a bit quick to cut people off

The first thought I had was to read 'Toxic Parents' and to get your Dh to read it too.
He wont get them to change, its unlikely that any of them will even acknowledge what they have done. It seems that they have their allocated roles in the family - was BIL the golden child?? He may well have modelled himself on FIL and the problem could be that you DH is holding up the mirror to them, and they dont want to look, as it will destroy the equilibrium which they have created. If BIL started to agree with DH, then that could really mess up their childcare problems, and possibly put MIL in a more vulnerable position. Mayby MIL saw how awful FIL was, and sent the boys away so they didnt have to live with him. Its unlikely to get spoken about anyway, and there is always the 'doing the best for you' flag to wave. MIL cant admit whats happening, beyond saying 'he's difficult' but suspect that FIL is abusive in more ways than mentioned - he isolates her and financially controls her, as well as having the nasty shouting verbal abuse.
How is bIL with SIL - does he display similar behaviour? Are you close with her?

NettleTea, they all live 250 miles away from us and we can't stay with any of them if we go to visit, which means we only see them once or twice a year at most (except MIL, who comes to stay with us several times a year during school holidays, which is good in some ways and very, very bad in other ways). So no, SIL and I are not close; partly due to geography, partly because she doesn't answer her phone if I call her and partly because she is too wrapped up in her own world and just doesn't see us as being part of her family (BIL really found his soul mate when her met her ).

FIL is not -repeat, NOT - physically abusive. Yes is controlling and mean and self-centred, but he is mentally ill and his own childhood was horrific so it's not surprising that he has problems. However, he has never been man enough to try to change in order to make his wife and children's lives better. BIL is not controlling and mean towards SIL either. He IS very like his dad in that he is becoming more and more reclusive, and more insular, but thankfully not showing any of the aggressive traits. He has suffered from panic attacks in the past, and he needs loads of therapy, but apparently he won't discuss any of this with SIL (if we are to believe her when she says this) .... it's a vicious circle.

Mardy - yep, I know what you're saying. Every time DH talks about sending BIL another letter, or phoning him, I find myself instinctively thinking "but BIL does not WANT this and it will push him further away." I, too, would find DH's neediness utterly repulsive if I were BIL. To clarify, we are never going to move closer to them. It's an idea we had a few years ago, after my mum died and we thought it would be nice to live near family and have the cousins grow up knowing each other better, and to have some support from MIL. Ha.

Oh - and far from BIL being the golden child, you won't believe this but DH was the golden child and still is!!! Laughable huh. I'm sure this is why BIL has such a problem with him, and why he didn't want us living nearby. MIL definitely prefers me to SIL - then again, I am polite and pleasant to her, which SIL isn't. Why they are all spending Christmas together I'll never know! They are all so f*cked up. 'Scuse the French.

Sorry, I didn't mean don't let him contact more don't let him bring up this conversation again as they are plainly not interested. I just wonder if they are fed up with his bringing it up each time maybe....?

Glad you liked the holiday idea, Have a good time! x

Your DH has to acknowledge that he won't get what he wants from them and use that as a place to move on.
DH desperately wants his parents to recognise how hard he has worked to become the very successful man he is today. All he wants is for them to say they love him and are proud of him. They're so wrapped up in themselves and the mutual misery (self inflicted) of their daily lives that it won't ever happen. They constantly snipe about how "lucky" we are, as though we had everything handed to us rather than work bloody hard for it, and how frivolous and extravagant we are (we're not). We just refuse to wallow in denial and misery. It requires insight and bravery for people to recognise their failings as parents and to take remedial action. DH's parents (and your ILs) don't have that and never will.

I can relate to your situation. My DH and BIL were both sent off to boarding school - they had to rely on their friends' parents taking them out at weekends even though they were only a few miles away from home. Although in his family history it is MIL who is the nightmare and not FIL who seems reasonable.

Fortunately DH saw sense some years ago and now we ignore MIL and FIL as much as possible (contact limited to 1-2 phone calls per year). We haven't seem MIL or FIL for over 5 years now - it got to the point where we effectively had to make an appointment to visit (they live 100 miles away) and even then DD and DS weren't allowed in the house (in case they made mess). I get the impression that MIL just doesn't like children.

We don't see BIL and SIL much either - they never come here because the consider my housekeeping below par and don't want to expose their DC to any kind of dirt (both myself and DH work full time and consider there are more important things in life than an immaculately clean house). We've all been much happier since he made the decision to ignore his family.

The only problam I have is that my mother insists on trying to persuade DH to reconcile with MIL and FIL. Fortunately he just ignores her.

Good luck with your family situation - my advice would definitely be to minimise contact and save yourself a lot of heartache.

OP - I have read this full thread and think you seem like a strong, caring wife and mother.

Some of it mirrors my own DH and his family - not 100% similar, but similar traits :( Don't really want to go into it here, but basically DH has been mortified by realising that his 'perfect' childhood, was actually pretty messed up and now he is an adult with his own DC he sees that even more sharply.

OP, you said this about your FIL regarding his legacy of abuse from his own childhood,
"However, he has never been man enough to try to change in order to make his wife and children's lives better."

Do you think this in any way sounds like something your own children might say in 20 years about your DH? Yes he's going to therapy, which is a brave step, but if he isn't taking it in and being consistent with it then change is slim.

OP your DHs family are damaged beyond repair all you can do is stay as far away from them as you can.

As for your DH he is also damaged but there could be hope. You need to sit him down and tell him (and mean it) that he needs to grow up and accept that he is never going to get what he wants from his family, they are never going to be the make believe family he wants them to be they are all too fucked up/mad for that, you need to point out he choose to marry you he choose to have a family with you and you and your children are his family and must come first, he has a duty to you and them not to the dysfunctional nut cases he calls his family.
Your children need a father who is not wasting family money trying to make a past change and a future exist that never will, at this rate your children will end up as damaged as him, by his behavior.

Tell him he needs to accept his lot and move on and away from them, he is never never going to get what he wants from his parents and brother and he need to know that he is going to lose the only family that should matter to him, you and your children

OP glad my post helped (I was a bit worried I was a little harsh), oh, and you sound very lovely too.

With regard to what you said about your DH not having to shield you, I understand and agree with what you mean about being married and so sharing that burden to some degree. But if you look at your later post about your own breakdown you make a point of saying that you tried to protect your family from the consequences of your own ill health. This is what people who love each other do. Your DH is exposing you and your children to unhappiness that he should be doing his best to divert from you through his own actions - as they result from HIS family problems and whatever you do has little consequence as a result. Everything stems from him in these circumstances, that's why he has to man up and stop living in an imaginary world that doesn't exist.

OH GOD

I was just about to post an update about how DH and I had a chat about everything last night, I told him about the advice on this thread, and he was open to cooling things a bit with BIL .... and I was going to get tough with him in the New Year once we'd got the festering sore of Christmas out of the way...

But DH has just rung me from work. Apparently he spoke to his mum earlier who confirmed the Christmas Day arrangements (MIL and FIL are going to BIL's house for lunch and staying most of the day, which is HUGE - 2 years ago they weren't speaking to each other at all) (DH thought they were just going round for a coffee & to see the grandchildren for an hour). DH has phoned BIL and left a furious message on his voicemail, culminating in him calling him a "f*cking coward". He was scarily calm when he rang me just now, and he is going out for drinks with his work colleagues tonight so I hope he doesn't overdo it ... and that he doesn't phone BIL again when he's drunk ....

Ah well. BIL will definitely never contact us again after this. I had just wrapped up the cousins' Christmas presents ready to post tomorrow, and texted SIL to thank her for the presents she'd sent for our DCs, which arrived today .... I feel quite sick now. I'd like to think that SIL and I could still communicate civilly for the sake of all our children, but it's going to be very very difficult. Good thing they live so far away really! FIL will start meddling too, and will bug DH and needle at him .... I might have to "lose" DH's phone for a few days, and unplug our landline!

So much for quietly and gracefully cutting all contact!

No such thing as quietly and gracefully when you're dealing with people like this. Prepare yourself for things to get quite a bit worse before they get better when you refuse to back down but stay strong!