Narcissistic Personality Disorder

[Wordweaver]

I know that there are some mumsnetters who have first-hand experience of NPD. I have posted a little bit about my issues with my stepfather in the past. Things have not improved, sadly. All a bit complicated.

I no longer want to play amateur psychiatrist and try to diagnose him. I suspect that if he does have an identifiable disorder, it is a mash-up of several, NPD included, as he doesn't fit neatly into a profile. However, from what I have read, NPD covers quite a lot of his 'ways'.

So I was wondering if anyone could recommend a book or a website that has practical advice on how to 'cope' with someone who has NPD - how I can change my own way of thinking to try to help myself, rather than how I change/get away from him. Specifically one that isn't totally focused on romantic relationships, but rather has a more general approach.

I know that I can't make him empathise with me, but it's all quite hurtful and I would value being able to do some reading around ways to adjust my own reactions to it. I am in the frame of mind that I need to stop hoping for things to be different and accept them as they are. Set myself free.

Alexander Lowen's book...Narcissism is very good, very easy to understand, and explains the overlap between the cluster B disorders.

It isn't a self help book as such, but there is comfort in just understanding.

www.amazon.co.uk/Narcissism-Denial-True-Alexander-Lowen/dp/0743255437/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323713286&sr=1-1

My copy of alexanders book arrived today! I'm glued to it, it's my grandmother to a t!! She's made my mums life, and now mine and my families, life hell. It's such a good book.

What works for me is to think of my narcs as two years old in their heads. They have the emotional maturity of a two year old, and as much empathy as a brick.

Manage your expectations, by NEVER expecting anything from them. If you can escape by having a superficial conversation about nothing in particular without it all going pear-shaped at their end then you have done well.

I find it helpful to actually GO somewhere or DO something whilst in their company, then you can talk about the thing you are doing or seeing without them blowing a gasket. Garden centres are good for this purpose. You can even risk a cup of tea in the cafe if you feel it is going well.

They CANNOT function as a normal adult in any circumstance. If they look as though they are coping, this is a huge act, and if you let your guard down and forget who and what you are dealing with they will pounce and squash you.

DO NOT feel sorry for them. It is ultimately their own choice to deny their true self.

DO NOT feel hurt by their actions. You did not cause this, you cannot change this. They are not picking on you personally. They are like this with everyone.

NEVER tell them anything you do not mind being used against you at a later date.

And finally, NEVER EVER finally lose it in an airport departure lounge and screech like a banshee at your narc, particularly if they are very elderly and are in tears. You will be the one who looks mad, not them. And no-one in the vicinity will have any clue as to the 50 years of insanity that you have endured at their hands.

HTH xx

Love your post Gettingagrip for I have lost it in several international airports. As for garden centres, they may be ok however NEVER set foot in Ikea with a Narc

[experienced emoticon]

Hi WordWeaver,
This is a helpful book.

Disarming the Narcissist: Surviving & Thriving With the Self-Absorbed by Wendy T. Behary (2008)

What GettingAGrip said.

In essence, you do not really exist; everything is always about them and their superiority.

(I just ordered Lowen's book today!)

I prefer going to the cinema...they have to be quiet!

LOL at Ikea! It's enough to drive anyone loopy in there anyway!

The thinking now is that all PDs are on the same spectrum, with varying degrees of narcissism involved in all of them. This means that your observation that your stepfather seems to fit different PDs is spot on. Most of them do, unless they are full blown Psychopaths, who are still on the spectrum, but obviously at the far end. Along the way are the histrionics, anti-socials and all the other rag tag and bobtails bringing up the rear.

Your local narc has a brain which has a completely different shape and make-up to the normal brain. Brain scans show these differences.

I like the work of Nina W. Brown. Her book for 'children of the self-absorbed' had some good tactical advice anyone could use. She made a point that never would have occurred to me independently, which is to never face them. Always angle your body and gaze away from them. You are subtley denying them the power/attention they are always seeking.

Also you can refer to my own survival checklist:

• do not go in alone. Narcissists do their most dirty work without witnesses. Take backup.
• do not answer the phone to them. It's akin to walking in to an ambush. Let it go to voicemail and call back, if you choose, on your own terms.
• Know your secret conditions for escape and for personal victory. If you must cut a visit short for your own well-being - cut it short, for the love of pete.
• If/when they attack you:

*completely change the subject as if you didn't even notice *if in company change your interaction to a different person, with a subject change *suddenly cut short the interaction without addressing the attack ('I just realized I must run...) *Put them down for attacking "I can understand why you would envy me my good fortune." Ssst crack the whip. *I understand this is hard, but try to avoid being trapped in their company. All my most hellish passages occurred when I was travelling with the NPD, assisting them to run errands (incredibly nightmarish), or helping them visit other people in hospital. If a 3rd party to do these things, do.

Honestly I think of them as wild, poisonous animals. Would you handle a dangerous snake or wild lion without all possible precautions in the most controlled circumstances? And they are always looking to sink fangs.

Thank you very VERY much one and all. You know, I expect, how much it helps to feel that there are others who have experienced the same frustration, bewilderment and confusion. I very much appreciate hearing your practical replies and I will look at all the titles you have suggested.

I'm actually at a point where I don't know if I will ever see him again. Am finding some quiet amusement at the thought of him in Ikea. It's a bit like trying to picture Jeremy Clarkson enjoying a spiritual healing session. He prefers to be in places where he feels secure and confident that he is king of the castle, even if it's a castle with one inhabitant. I have gone past upset and angry, or at least I have for the moment. Just feel very sad.

Laughing at your comment, SirSugar. My DH is going to Ikea tomorrow under great sufferance. Hoping he doesn't come back TOO loopy.

Excellent post from Tante.

If I may I will add ...find their weak point and hit them hard with it.

Show no fear, and do not hesitate. If they are frightened of you it really makes a difference to the way they treat you.

With my exH it was money. With my parent it is the knowledge that they now need me more than I need them. With my sibling it is that I WILL throw them out of my house if they start with their shit on my daughter again.

It may be that the worst thing that you can do to them is ignore them. Certainly, withdrawing mentally from them is a good strategy, and the turning sideways described by Tante is genius.

You have to be very hard to do these things, but frankly as the female army doctor recently said about having to shoot dead a Taliban fighter : 'It was him or me and I chose me'.

When my NPD H was on his death bed he announced 'I don't care if I die, its everyone else who will be fucked, because I won't be here'

Agree with gettingagrip completely, and am thrilled we are on the same page. A lot of people leave their power sitting on the table, but if you have an NPD in your life, you must learn how to claim power and use it, for sheer survival.

You do have to learn to be hard, but otoh it helps me appreciate the good so much more. When people are loving, or kind, or show some virtue or other, it's very moving and delightful to me. Also I am happy to see the phenomenon discussed generally, because it does seem to be an area where we can really contribute our mite to advancing civilization and frustrating its obstacles.

During a random chat with a friend recently, I was asked what I was scared of. I could honestly answer..... 'nothing'.

Now I have finally got my head together after a lifetime of fear and confusion, especially as a small child, at the hands of these evil freaks, and having survived, almost intact....what else is there to fear? Nothing.

SirSugar, interestingly my narc parent is absolutely TERRIFIED of death. What do you think the reason is?

Loss of control

My estranged H believes that I am NPD. Is this why he won't make eye contact I wonder? I know he's doing it deliberately. But I couldn't work out whether he was ashamed of punching me in the face, or was trying to be manipulative....It'll be the manipulative option then I guess.

Gettingagrip Yes.....a lifetime of this freaky mind bending weirdness immunises the soul I think.

Maybe your narc parent is scared of "judgement"...because they do KNOW on some level, that it is them.

That's true, loss of control, no-one had control over their own death unless they commit suidicide, but then most narcs would not do that because they think they are the most important things around.
I sometimes wonder if my late mother had some narc tendencies, but her manic depression seemed to overtake everything else.
But she was very controlling of myself and my brother and we hardly had a teenage hood as she would not let us go anywhere and would threaten to harm herself if we stayed out too long.

Sounds horrible, but now she's gone I feel the first REAL freedom for ages.

Ripeberry, I understand. I couldn't shift the idea I was going to be free when H was dying.

Yes the judgement thing is interesting as this parent is VERY religious. And the lack of control of course is spot on. No-one can control their own death can they?

And Ripeberry, when my other parent died, nearly 20 years ago now, also a narc, and violent with it, I stood at the grave and all I could think was 'I beat you, you bastard, I have won'.

Not very nice , but there it is.

I think it is due to spending their lives building up a false self and worshipping it. Death is the end of all that. I don't think they believe in a true self, only their false self. Imaginatively, I see their true selves as creeping servitors of the giant Ozymandias statue they themselves have constructed.

SirSugar shaking my head reading of the NPDH's last words. To the very bitter end.

Its been nearly two years since my H died and its interesting how my dreams have changed during this time.

first I would dream he was back, sitting there and not talking to me but usually on the phone to someone. I knew he was going to die but not when and I was fretting about what he was going to do about the money and business

Then I dreamt he was shouting at me and new DP took him out into the garden ( I have known DP for years so he knew what H was like )

The dreams switched to me seeing H outside somewhere and him trying to talk to me, with me ignoring him

a month ago I dream't he came back into the house, was quite friendly and I told him if he wanted to look at anything that he could use the office ( used to be his office, I'm sitting at his old desk now as I write this )

Last week I dream't he was going to die and came to say goodbye

I think these dreams reflect more about how I feel about myself and my own capabilities since hes been gone. He controlled all financial matters in our house, left a fucking huge mess which I have successfully turned around.

Yes Tante the image my H displyed to the outside world with his fancy suits and impressive cars was in complete contrast to the financial issues I uncovered after he was gone. It was a mirage

I completely understand SirSugar. They demand control, but not in order to solve problems or make anything better. Oh no not at all. Well done you for sorting out the mess. I know it will have been prodigious, probably sewn with landmines as well.

Every anniversary and holiday since my parent's 2008 passing, I feel so free and grateful all over again not to have to deal with him.

SirSugar I think your dreams and your analysis of them are very interesting and powerful. The word 'control' seems to be hugely important when trying to interact with someone who has these characteristics. Certainly I realised a long time ago - even before my mother did - that her partner wanted and needed to have a sense of control, and was at his most difficult to deal with (for me) when he felt that he did not have control.

As I said earlier, I don't think that he fits in with all NPD tendencies. But we are now at a point where, I believe, he has truly accepted that he has no control over how I live my life. The result is that he has to all intents and purposes washed his hands of me. Objectively speaking, I think this is a very interesting reaction. It is as if something has clicked in his brain to say that I am no longer a 'person of interest', as the police say. All he is prepared to do is to have superficial conversations about the ephemera of life. He will not 'allow' conversations about the big issue that has caused all this trouble. He will not ask me anything about my life - because it is not being lived in a way that he approves.

And I feel cut adrift. He has been a father to me, and now I can't see how I can have any sort of relationship with him that is acceptable to both of us. That's why I say that I think I need to adjust MY way of thinking. I have to accept that this is how things are, and try to stop myself feeling guilty and/or cruel. Because at present, objectively, I know this is not my fault. And yet there is also a voice that says if only I could have come up with the 'magic words', if only I could have said this or that differently, everything would have been OK.

Sorry, this is very self-indulgent and rambling. But I think it's all part of working through it. I think it's something I have to do now.

This woman's mother was a narcissist:
merrillmarkoe.com/enough-about-you-my-explanation-of-narcissism

She sounds like your stepfather, WW: "When a ... narcissist honors you by allowing you entry into his or her very elite cadre, it is kind of like being annexed by an imperialist country. Your borders have now been erased...If you are not mirroring him or praising him, you are proving you are a separate person and thus a threat."