Narcissistic Personality Disorder

[Wordweaver]

I know that there are some mumsnetters who have first-hand experience of NPD. I have posted a little bit about my issues with my stepfather in the past. Things have not improved, sadly. All a bit complicated.

I no longer want to play amateur psychiatrist and try to diagnose him. I suspect that if he does have an identifiable disorder, it is a mash-up of several, NPD included, as he doesn't fit neatly into a profile. However, from what I have read, NPD covers quite a lot of his 'ways'.

So I was wondering if anyone could recommend a book or a website that has practical advice on how to 'cope' with someone who has NPD - how I can change my own way of thinking to try to help myself, rather than how I change/get away from him. Specifically one that isn't totally focused on romantic relationships, but rather has a more general approach.

I know that I can't make him empathise with me, but it's all quite hurtful and I would value being able to do some reading around ways to adjust my own reactions to it. I am in the frame of mind that I need to stop hoping for things to be different and accept them as they are. Set myself free.

Very interesting reading Witterington, thank you for linking to it.

Well, WordWeaver, seeming selfishness is the right thing to do because you do exist and are not invisible and are a respectable person. I know that and I don't even know you, but I bet your stepdad doesn't know it and never will.

You can evolve, and mature, and learn, and change.
They can not. Their way or the highway. Black and white.

Our pure heart, innocent child-within, wants to hang onto a shred of hope. But there is no hope, is there? Not 'til their dying day and then they will even throw one last trick in the "Last Will and Testament" (usually a final proof of who they are, which we knew all along). Will Auntie Em finally give her 'secret' recipe in her Will, like she said she would? Ha Ha Ha, no. Control from beyond the grave.

I have found this site the most helpful and eye-opening, especially the page about "Now we are six" - similar to gettingagrip's 2 year old theory. In actual fact almost all narcs are "stuck" at some age or another, and you will be able to recognise this after some time. For my ex in actual fact I believe it was much later - around 14.

This is useful too - worth reading everything you can find IMO :)

In the first link, look on the "How to recognise" page as that has some pointers on maintaining a neutral relationship with a narc, for example one in your family.

Thanks for the link from here as well, Witterington.

Gifts are always tricky. This article helps explain the dynamic with my difficult middle sister. Giving a gift is always about how great she is in reinterpreting the request/acquiring it/giving it rather than anything at all about the recipient. She will often put conditions/expectations on the use of the gift, too.

The boundaries point is also a bell ringer.

Thanks for your links, too, BB. I agree with reading/studying: well worth every minute.

Christ I've just looked up these things and they remind me so much of my son's father (long gone thank god.) He was completely void of empathy and was so cold with people and abusive. What would you call it when as a youngster you find a bat (the kind that flies) try and nurse it back to health then realise you cant so pin it to a tree and use it as target practise? Some of his stories sent a shiver down my spine...When we moved to a new area he wondered if he ought to 'show people what he's capable of'? He had an obsession with knives and history with. I just saw that on a list of traits although I may be goigh into the psychopath category about wanting to create fear and notoriety in people....,I'll admit the one and only thing that reminded me of him I kept for the first few years was the flick knife he gave me....it was within easy reach of the front door incase he ever found us and I'm pretty sure I would have used it. I dispise knives....

Well sammy, as Gettingagrip said, narcs exist on a spectrum ie there are usually many other flags/disorders/psychopathies bound up in the disordered person. An obsession with knives sounds pretty horrifying and yes, points to psychopathic tendencies so therefore he may have been bonkers at the far end of the spectrum.

I too really like the 'turn aside' tip from tante. I'd love to try that out on my mother but will probably never see her again.

Wordweaver, it will take some more time probably for you to adjust to the notion that you have indeed been 'cut adrift' - that's a very good description, as is the notion that your step-p has 'washed his hands' of you.

It hurts like hell and causes some sort of regression in us to a child-like state I think - this is what I experienced. My mother washed by hands of me too once I 'came out of the cult' as I describe it. The rest of my family are still bound up in her 'cult' - still in awe of her, therefore they still feed her narcissistic self and are 'useful' to her for that. Me though? She couldn't give a fuck frankly. She lost interest in me and ds and, once they've lost interest in you, it never returns. But it wasn't interest in you anyway, it was interest in the mirror image they saw of themselves in you and how you reacted to them/pandered etc.

I am now way past that feeling of desperation at my mother and hoping that she will somehow turn into the lovely mother I thought she was once. I know that she simply isn't capable of it and wasn't lovely either.

She really seems to have a one-dimensional brain that does not compute anything that isn't relevant to her. This includes other people's suffering - especially that of her own children. I think she is physically quite disgusted by the emotional pain I have shown about my life traumas; it's genuinely distasteful to her. She doesn't 'get' emotional pain as she doesn't feel it. rage and anger and bitterness yes.

She is actually bloody boring. That's what I feel now and I rarely have contact with her. Narcs are essentially bores. They know 'everything' but actually they know eff all. You don't need to have a relationship with your step-father. Think of him as a cardboard cut-out that collapses if you give it a tiny tap. And do everything tante says in any interaction with him. You only get one life. Live it with peiople who really love you and you can talk with and actually have a human loving bond with.

Read this thread with some interest as I believe my mother was one of these. Just found this quote that sums up how this affected my life pretty well one of the pages linked to above:

"If you were raised by a narcissistic parent, then you've been taught that the narcissist is always right and you're the one who's wrong. A lifetime of such mistreatment typically instills lack of confidence in your own judgment, along with habitual shame at never getting it right or being good enough to deserve the air that you breathe."

My mother died earlier this year. My relationship with her had been receding for a good while before her actual death due to my decision not to be drawn into any more of her narcissistic dramas when I became pregnant with my first child last year.

What I would say is that in over 30 years of pleading, begging, screaming, threatening, trying to help, attempting to disengage, endless rounds of drs, hospitals, social workers trying to get help for someone who alienated and abused anyone who got close to her and was hellbent on self destruction and utterly lacking in empathy- NOTHING MADE THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF DIFFERENCE.

I did all these things because I was scared that one day she would die and I would feel terribly guilty if I had not done everything in my power to, in hindsight, rescue this person that I still loved from the consequences of her own actions. I realise now that I was completely powerless to do so and if I could say one thing to anyone still dealing with this type of person it would be stand back, disengage, put your own mental health first and create boundaries. I did this by limiting the amount of time I would spend in my mother's company, never seeing her on my own, and even stopped spending Christmas several years ago with her as she made it a living hell for everyone concerned. The world did not end as a result of this. Nobody died.

But of course eventually she did die and of course the guilt was truly awful. For a very short while. A much, much, shorter while than I could ever have imagined. Because you know what? My mother died having not seen me or my sister or many other people for over a year because of her not me. As a direct result of the way she lived her life and how she had always treated the people in it. I wasted a hell of a lot of time and emotional energy at the expense of my mental health trying to prevent this and I would urge anyone still dealing with this to please take note that like they say when dealing with an alcoholic: you did not cause it, you could not have prevented it and you cannot cure it.

Did not mean this to be such a long post, sorry, I guess I needed to get that out. I still loved her very much and would have done anything for things to have been different. But I would never, ever put myself through all that shit again. You can not, will not change these people. Look after yourself OP xxxx

Show them no mercy

and

Feel no guilt about it

Sorry, just to add, make sure you don't end up like them. Protect yourself

Excellent post, Racingmind. Sorry you had to endure that in your life.

"As a direct result of the way she lived her life and how she had always treated the people in it."

I sometimes believe that their distorted thinking prevents them from understanding that their behavior will have consequences; that people will be happy to choose the 'highway' option of the 'their way or the highway' edict.

UA- "cult" is such a great analogy!

Just wanted to say that finding this thread this morning has really helped today. There is some excellent practical advice here that I'm going to really try to put into action.

It's only recently that I've learnt of the existence of NPD and it was a real wow moment. I read a list of traits and 'D'M fits it to a tee. Everything I've experienced over the past 20 years or so finally made sense and I can perhaps start to think that it's not just in my head. But for now I'm still in the grips of the rages and control and manipulation to the extent that every day is an emotional rollercoaster, never knowing what will trigger a massive blow up. I am also totally unable to make an independent decision without seeking advice that invariably infuriates me despite being in my 30's. I can see everything that's wrong but totally lost as to how to start breaking out of this. So thanks for helping me make a start! Will check out the books recommended.

Sorry for the hijack but felt such an affinity with the issues and feelings expressed here that I couldn't not post.

TinselMakesSantaBonkers, thank you. Among the many feeling I have about him, pity is one of them. Not to be able to develop and grow in his life has ultimately brought him sadness and loneliness.

BertieBotts, great links thanks - lots of reading to do there. I have to do it in small bursts, but I have saved the links and am working through.

UnlikelyAmazonian, I'm very interested in the things you've said about learning to cope with your mother's ways. Acceptance and distance are words that keep coming out at me, because, I suppose, I think these are the things I find so difficult. I can accept that things are the way they are NOW, and that I can't know what the next instalment is likely to be. But it is quite hard to get my head around there not BEING a next instalment.

Racingmind, so many of the things you said resonated with me. Part of the catalyst for me to act in a different way recently is that I am expecting my first child next year. While I have been willing to contort myself into strange shapes (so to speak!) in the hope that he would see the light one day and realise what he was doing, there is no way that I am putting a little one in that position. I am not going to allow a situation where I have to 'train' a child to act in a certain way around a person for fear of lighting the blue touch paper.

I do love him - he has been part of my family since I was ten. And I will always be sad about how things have panned out, if nothing ever changes from now on. But I think part of my guilt/sadness is in a growing feeling that the possibility of never seeing him again is not inconceivable/unbearable any more.

For myself as much as for him, I have tried to act with love and kindness. I have no wish to be cruel, and in certain ways he is like a toddler who can't help himself. I know that he probably doesn't see that I have been acting with love at all. In fact, I am pretty sure that from his point of view, I have been a stupid, thoughtless, blinkered idiot, and have abandoned him and turned on him 'just like everyone else'. All because I won't agree with his viewpoint.

His perceptions are quite skewed at time. I honestly think he believes his own perception of things, even when that means him completely rewriting history. Here's an example:

Some years ago, he put me in an impossible position. He told me something that my mother HAD to know, but he asked me not to tell her.

I said that I couldn't agree to that, because I felt it was utter madness for her not to be told. However, I agreed that I would say nothing about it as long as he told her the following day. Under great pressure, he did tell her.

Later, it came out that the whole thing had been a lie from start to finish. It took him about two years to admit it, but eventually he did. That's a whole other kettle of fish.

But the point is that when he admitted that it was a lie, he came out with something along the lines of this: yes he had been wrong to lie, but I had betrayed his trust because I had promised not to say anything to Mum until he was ready.

He believed this completely, and it was utterly untrue.

1. I had specifically said that I couldn't make that promise, and
2. I hadn't told my mum.

It made me feel very strange - as if I had stepped into a parallel world. It made me question my own memories.

It's like always being on the back foot.

Anyway, over the last year I have withdrawn from spending much time with him and have allowed him to continue in the bubble where he feels safe - the bubble where he can continue to believe that my life is being lived in a particular way.

I am now in the process of accepting that he would rather live with that fantasy than have a relationship with the real me. And if I am not happy to carry on like that, he would rather have no contact with me at all.

It's just not what my idea of a parent is - and he has been a parent to me since I was ten. Thankfully I have a sane, wise, loving and kind mother who has taught me more sense.

Blimey, sorry, I have gone on a bit. But I am deeply appreciative of all your very, very useful and insightful responses.

AyeWhySWIM please post a topic any time you are ready. Though my time is limited for commenting, I am strongly committed to passing on anything I've learned from oh-so-painful experience that might help you win free. Very likely many feel the same.

I got a lot out of this blog. I especially like the blogger's answer to the question of if she has any regrets, having an N mother. She wrote "No, because wisdom is hard won."

Wordweaver I empathize with your situation. There's this feeling that somewhere behind that wall of ice, there must be something there, if only we could get to it. It was very hard to grasp, that nothing was there. It was a lesson that I had to experience over and over, and over and over. I'd be overwhelmed by the realization, then somehow lose sight of it until the next time. I'd pat your hand if I was by.

Hi WordWeaver,
I believe the circumstance you described concerning your stepfather is called "gaslighting". There are other threads here about it. Hopefully someone will come along and put up a link. ( I am still a bit of a technophobe. Too lazy to try...ok I'll try)

But it is just as you have described, textbook example. The idea is to get you to think you have lost your mind-that you don't know what the real truth is...to doubt yourself, to not trust yourself. Then he will be the undisputed authority by effectively removing someone who was a challenger. It is a control mechanism. It is emotional abuse in one of its most vile forms, imho.

Imho, it wouldn't be a waste of your time to check out Lundy Bancroft's book: "Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men". I read this before I sent it to my oldest sister because her dh has anger/control issues. I was quite surprised that it rang bells for my difficult middle sister and felt the title very well could have been "Why Does She Do That?"

Ummm, WordWeaver...is your DM ok?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1149682-Gaslighting-how-do-you-know

This is one of many threads within relationships that has discussions on "gaslighting'. Or simply google it.

Hi TinselMakesSantaBonkers, thanks for your message.

I now know a fair bit about gaslighting, thanks to Mumsnet! I do see why you suspect it in this case. I believe, though, that it is usually done consciously - i.e. the person knows that they are saying something that isn't true. Now, of course I can't look inside his head, but I am pretty sure that he actually BELIEVES that the things he says are true. It's this way: he thinks of something, and decides that it is the truth. Because HE has decided it is the truth, and he knows best, it therefore becomes truth in his mind. It isn't about trying to unbalance those around him - it's more about him making the world into the shape that he wants it to be.

I remember asking him once, rather exasperatedly when I was about 15, whether he thought that there was one rule for him and another for everyone else. He said yes, and sounded almost surprised that I should need to ask. I knew, somehow, that he absolutely meant it.

The big lie that he told was that he had something wrong with him. He never went to the doctor or had a diagnosis. He interpreted a couple of symptoms and decided that he had a particular condition. From his point of view, it was true really, because he knew that he had it. The fact that it was medically unconfirmed seemed irrelevant to him in the face of the fact that in his opinion it was true. His opinion = truth.

And yes, my lovely mother is OK, thank you. She left him five years ago. She was very sad, but she felt it was too damaging to herself to stay. She, too, still has a great deal of emotional attachment to him, but it is gradually slipping away.

I should say that she doesn't really 'buy into' my feeling that he has some level of psychological disorder - it isn't a way of looking at it that's helpful for her. But her attitude is that each of us must find our paths through these times in ways that resonate with us. We have done a lot of talking about it all, as you can imagine! Thankfully we have had each other to talk to about the things he says/does.

That's another thing actually. Quite often he has said something to me or her that is instantly blown out of the water as untrue the minute we speak to each other. It's as if he doesn't know us at all - doesn't realise that we talk to each other and communicate. You see, he doesn't communicate on an emotional level. Because he can't empathise, he can't seem to imagine that people act in a different way from him.

I think that a lot of the reasons for the way he is go back to his rather sad childhood. I feel that there is a sort of darkness at the centre of him, which he is actually scared of because he doesn't understand it, and doesn't have the emotional tools to face it. Mum describes it as there being a piece of a jigsaw that doesn't fit. I do feel sorry for him. But then he is also a grown man, who has had ample opportunities to develop and grow and try, had he wanted to.

Anyway, I am letting myself go round and round in the same circles again. What it comes down to is this: he's not a well man, but I cannot take responsibility for his health, mental or physical. And soon I will have a baby whose health IS my responsibility to care for, and that person will come first.

I see what you mean, WordWeaver. That is beyond what I have experienced.

I once asked my sister if she had considered a problem and determined the correct answer as she saw it, then that was that and no other opinion need not exist? She said 'well, yes' as though I was some imbecile. You described it much better than I can.

Your sfather, I think, shows a more advanced level to what my sister has displayed (she may have gotten worse, it'll be 4 years Christmas since I've been in her presence).

Also on creating the 'real' truth-I don't think she can understand that it was my decision to detach...I was surely, unduly, obviously influenced by my oldest sister-the black sheep of the family, btw-that we are ganging up on her (poor victim). I could not get enough credit with middle sister to rate having my own brain, or identity. Or it is too much against the family myth to blame anyone but oldest sister?

I digress...Speaking of emotional tools, do you know about this book?:
Emotional Intelligence: 10th Anniversary Edition; Why It Can Matter More Than IQ by Daniel Goleman
It might be of interest in that it discusses connections (or not) in childhood and how that wires the brain for adult dynamics.

I am glad your Mom is away from him.

Congratulations on your pregnancy.

At 45, I was pregnant (a surprise) with my third when I was beginning to distance myself from middle sister. She is single, no kids, and was 47 at the time. My pregnancy-well, she just blew a head gasket, as oldest sister puts it. I don't know if it was pg hormones, or the excellent prenatal vitamins , but I developed a certain clarity of understanding of the circumstances and finally found the backbone to say "enough is enough".

You are doing the right thing.

Yes, I would say so, SantaBHTA.
I had to laugh at the attacks on an infant...that is getting pretty desperate, don't you think?