Old chestnut: how would you have approached this?

[Deberny]

We had DH's family over for lunch on Saturday. The house needed cleaning, the shopping needed doing, and the food needed cooking.

The week before, I had some time so I kept the house in good order, so on Sat morning it just needed a quick hoover and the bathroom doing. I did those things while dh did the bit of shopping.

We shared the cooking, though I'd done things that were prepared in advance, and dh did what needed doing right then.

We were knackered and had had too much Baileys after lunch, so we vegged out on Sat evening. On Sunday, everyone got up and kind of worked around the piles of dishes. I waited and waited to see if dh was going to acknowledge the fact that they needed doing, but he didn't. He was about to go out when I ended up making a sarcastic comment and of course we had a little bit of a spat about it.

I just wanted him to say "Oh, those need doing." I didn't want him to do them there and then, and I was going to do my bit. It's been bugging me since then that I don't know how to handle this sort of thing, it makes me very stressed. He does refuse to acknowledge a lot of things that need to be done, but since he'll do them if asked, I can hardly feel hard-done-by. I have talked to him about it before and he won't suddenly become a person who lets housework into his life unless prompted - so how, practically, do I approach it? I can't prompt him without sounding sour. And I am sour, because I suspect he would like me to just do it on the quiet and then he could get to be grateful.

lesser They see women doing it, they have it shown/explained to them,

well sorry to disagree but in my house they don't see it being done.
DH works a 12 hour day, travels overseas frequently, I work less, so I do 80% of the housework when he is at work.

I don't think he has seen me clean a cupbaord or windows in 27 years of living in the same house.

To clarify - we both work the same hours.

I have this issue with the two boys (one OH, one defacto BIL) with whom I live. I think the way in which their approach differs is that they appear to feel no shame whatsoever if the house is grotty.

To me, if there are big skiddy marks on the toilet bowl, a sink full of dirty dishes and drifts of hair in the corners of the room, I feel actively ashamed, - as if the house is an external reflection of some sort of inner laziness, moral decay and slutty personal hygiene. If someone comes round and sees it, I imagine they are revolted by the house and by me.

The boys don't feel this. They are free of any connection between how people might percieve their home, and how people percieve them personally. And for this, I actually envy them. I wish I didn't feel ashamed of dirt, as if it betrayed my own dirty mind.

However, I wish they'd just clean the loo.

The reason these men 'don't see' what needs doing is because whatever they say to the contrary, they simply don't 'see it' as their responsibility. If they never forget work tasks, or putting petrol/oil in their cars - or anything else that they regard as their responsibility, then there is no excuse for failing to notice what needs doing in a home. Until you approach it from this angle and stop making excuses for people who are adults, things will never change.

It is definitely rooted in sexism and that applies to both of you. If deep down you think that these jobs are your responsibility and that the outside world will criticise only you if they don't get done and if your own instincts are to judge the woman in a partnership if a house is slovenly, then it's worth confronting your own attitudes and beliefs about this issue, because they are self-defeating.

I agree with Solid too that there is a bigger elephant in the room when conflicts like this arise, which is to do with respect and love. If someone repeatedly fails to do something and that failure is causing stress and upset in his partner, then it is fair enough to question how much respect and love really exists in the relationship. Repeated conflicts like this are rarely just about household chores and who does what.

In partnerships where this is a problem, the best way of tackling is to insist that household chores are divided up into clear lines of responsibility i.e. one person is solely responsible for a task and everyone in that household knows it. This is a practical solution that still doesn't address the deeper issues I've mentioned, but it does mean that things get done and one person isn't entirely responsible.

Actually, I'm a woman and I don't see it either. My DP has explained it to me, and I do see it from his point of view, if I think about it. But I find it really irritating if I'm sitting happily veging, and he's rushing around with the Hoover. Also, why not leave the washing up til the morning, or there are no more plates?

His parents always lived in a bit of a tip, and I found it homely. I didn't realise he hated their mess, clutter and dirt, and was a tidiness fiend. Over the years, I like to think I've mellowed him...

You could try sitting him down and explaining it to him, but it really is hard to change your personality. I've found that anyway.

PS Blimey, I've never cleaned a window either - although I think DP has?

Also, why not leave the washing up til the morning, or there are no more plates?

The last place I lived, we had mice and cockroaches (I BLAME THE BOYS). One of the bits of advice the council website gave us was not to leave any food out at all, - even food residue on plates, as the slightest smear of food would attract more of these cheerfully inquistive creatures. We were told that, if we really couldn't bring ourselves to wash up before going to bed, to completely submerge the dishes in a sink of soapy water overnight.

One would think that an infestation of roaches (they were everywhere, even in THE BEDS, on one notable occasion) would cause the boys to pull up their collective socks. It did not. They did nothing about it. After a few days of frantically cleaning, poisoning and sticky-trap changing, so did I. Its surprising what you get used to.

sternface that's not actually true- the analogy between putting petrol or oil in the car.

If they forgot, the car would stop. There would be consequences.

If they don't clean cupboards or windows, or hoover, it doesn't impact on their lives in any meaningful way. The only consequence is a partner nagging or rowing with them.

It is sexism- but not in the way you mean. I have not met a single man in my 5 decades who is as fussy over the state of the house as a woman- or me. ( not all women are that bothered.)

My Dh's approach to housework is a 6-monthly blitz when the place looks like a Delhi slum.

Mine is different, and all the more because I work from home- so am surrounded by the dirt or dust or whatever 24/7.

I think if you both work the same hours, then a list is the only way- his andher s housework.

I have been the primary carer for our children, and work 50% fewer hours than him, I see the housework as more my domain but not exclusively mine- now that my kids have left home, my work load has increased as I've changed careers. I now expect him to do more around the house.

Humm, I really think that a big part of 'not seeing' is actually 'not wanting to do' or 'can't be arse doing it'. All this thing about having a lower threshold etc.. is just that most men haven't been expected to do all that as par of the course whereas women have.
Eg, when I was a child, I never tidied my bedroom (my mum had long stopped trying to make me do it and she didn't want to do it either - I couldn't find my stuff afterwards lol). Very little as a way of 'HW' ie putting dishes in dishwasher.
But each time we were at some relatives, I had to get up and 'help' in the kitchen, bring the dishes back etc... when the 'men' (GF, DF...) were staying at the table having a chat. So I've learnt that it is a woman job to do that and had I had a brother he would have learnt that 'men' don't need to.

My H has learnt to do HW because not helping was one things taht drove my MIL crazy with her H. So he knows but won't always do it or will do it badly because it's a way to get out of it.
Eg we got a new washing machine and he looked at me serioulsy saying he co9uldn't out a washing to go as he didn't know how the 'new one' works.... He is an ingenier and proud himself for his ability of not needing instrauctions to make things work.
He will do the washing up but do it badly because he can't be arsed.

If he had the gut to say 'I am going shopping so that you can carry on tidying up on your own' he would not get out the house alive tbh. What a lack of respect for your partner! I am that some poeple still think that the responsability of some work around the house (HW, MOT testing etc...) belongs to only one person in the house...

Yes, I think it is that whoever has the highest standards is the person who does the cleaning/nagging. And generally it is the woman. If I were living with someone who was more slovenly than me, then I would perhaps turn into the housework fiend.

Why is it generally the women? It can't just be peer pressure, surely?

This is an interesting debate, because there are times when I agree with

^He's an otherwise good man with absolutely zero interest in cleaning.
I should say I have zero interest in it as well, which is why I'm so bloody frustrated. To me it's an evil necessity that comes of being an adult.^

That's very much the reason why there is no reason for you Op to have to ask for him to do some HW.
When you start asking you put yourself in a situation where he is 'helping' you, giving up even more responsability for it.

Why is it generally the women? It can't just be peer pressure, surely?

Obviously, there are neatfreak men, just as there are slobqueen women. But I think that women get it impressed on them as children that housework is women's work, and that they will be judged for not being tidy enough, - both in their houses and in their clothes ("careful not to spoil your dress, make sure your hair looks neat," etc).

When you grow up, also get the pressure of media and adverts, - almost all cleaning adverts target women, and give the message that the house is your responsibility, others will judge you if it is not up to stratch (think of all the air freshner adverts with the women's friend's coming round) and that a way to express your love for your family is by cleaning their muddy footprints off the kitchen floor, or wrapping them up in a big fluffy towel, or making sure the work surfaces are clean enough for them to lick peanut butter from.

Aaarrghh, that was a mistake. Anyway, sorry there are times when I agree with the view that men do it deliberately and think a woman will clean up, and at other times, when they just don't 'see' the work.

I was away for 7 weeks, and came home to a complete dump. I was LIVID and DH was standing there going, 'it's all clean, it's a bit untidy, nothing else'. I was so livid that I slammed the door shut on his face and made him sleep in the spare room (mind you this was after a 14 hour flight so jetlag made it worse). Next morning, I was sheepishly asked what he could do to 'clear up'. I made him join me in clearing up. 30 mins later the house looked lovely. I looked at him and said, 'see, now isn't that better?' And he said, 'can I be honest? It looks just the same to me, we've only put away things. Otherwise it looks the same!!!!'.

I was gobsmacked. I had come home to clothes strewn about everywhere, 7 weeks' of mail piled up and just general chaos. It took hardly any time to sort out, he was more than helpful in doing it, but the end product to him seemed to look no different from what we'd started with. And he was being utterly serious and somewhat apologetic.

Anyway, I've now taken to expressly stating what needs to be done. So when we're leaving for work I'll say, ok, please do the dishes and put away the clothes. Or as the weekend dawns I'll say, ok I'll do lunch but clearing up and a hoover is your job. And he does it without complaint.

The other thing I've realised is that I like doing things as I go along- so dishes everyday, laundry every other day, a general tidy up before going to bed. DH prefers to do stuff only when it piles up and this extends to his own stuff as well, including ironing his shirts. So I just explicitly ask for what I want, and he's happy to do it.

I think OFM is right about asking him to do HW, as it does put you in charge. Can you sit down together and discuss thresholds for task, rather than asking him to help? You can then compare thresholds, and decide on what needs to be done, so that he takes responsibility.

tigermoll, I do agree that women do get judged on all that. I have a DS 12 and DD 10, and I go out of my way to make sure I get them both to do household tasks etc. Sadly, I'm not working at the moment, and I do worry that they see me as the chief cook, if not the chief cleaner!

My husband cleans the bathroom when we are having a day of shared house blitzing... for some reason he enjoys doing it, so I am happy to let him get on with it.. he can spend two hours in there, cleaning all the tiles, behind the basin, the shower screen (I hate that job so much!), and he can completely miss the mirror.

The mirror is 3ft x 2ft inbuilt into the tiles that he has polished until they gleam...

He genuinely did not notice it.

This thread has made me think....you know what,I've decided I'm not doing any more housework until after christmas. I'm off home for a week, and the boys are staying in the house. Its a tip at the moment, and it can just stay that way

Thank you, mumsnet!

I really don't think it is sexism or conditioning.

My Dh lived on his own for 9 years before we married- uni then in his own house. He had to look after himself and did the minimum to keep the place clean.

he didn't do more than the minimum. He had though been brought up in a house where his mother did very little- and I do think he literally was never exposed to housework routines.

I also think it's a bit of a generation thing. Both my DS and DD now share houses, post uni, where they contribute £5 a week for a cleaner. This makes a huge difference and I think when they are living with one partner , in time, they are more likely to employ a cleaner themselves and see it as a necessity if they are working in professional jobs, taking up 12 hrs a day.

In fact both my DCs now try to persuade me to have a cleaner, but TBH I'm too mean and would rather get on with it myself and have the £20 a week for me!

The reason it is mostly women is because that is how society is constructed and how boys and girls are socialised. Women are not innately more clean or tidy and as an entire sex, have no more fondness for cleaning ovens and toilets than men. Women are socialised to think it's their responsibility and this is perpetuated when they judge other women for tasks not getting done. Until it becomes the default in society to regard housework as a non-gendered responsibility, it will continue.

The petrol/oil analogy works just fine IMO. If while driving men knew that the car might splutter a bit if they didn't put oil or petrol in it but would eventually admit defeat and fill itself up and resume normal service, then it might be worth an infrequent irritation like that in exchange for not having to maintain it. There would be no really bad consequences.

Just like there are no really bad consequences at home if all that is suffered is a minor skirmish every now and then and women continue to stay in a relationships where their feelings are not regarded as sufficiently important.

If there is no assumption of responsibility and no consequences, it is human nature for a basically selfish person to carry on regardless.

stern- batty analogy! Cars won't splutter then fill themselves. they'll stop dead.

The simple fact is that most women work part time outside the home, and most men work full time.

Where both partners work the same nuber of hours, then IMO the household chores should be shared equally.

If one partner works fewer hours then they should do more chores, to contribute to the upkeep of their home.

The gender stereotype might work for my generation- 50s- and my parents, but many younger couples now have always worked full time.

The only possible reason that men in their 20-40s have been "conditioned" is if they were brought up in a home where thier mums did all the chores, and didn't educate them that it was a joint responsibility if their partners worked outside the home.

These threads make me angry and sad! How can it still be like this in 2011 ffs!

It is pathetic the excuses people - women - make for men in relation to housework. If a man took a job as a housekeeper or kitchen porter he would bloody well follow his job description. Men can clean. Men can learn new tasks. Men can listen to annoyed wives and make agreements and stick to them. If the men want to that is.

My DH was an utter slob when he lived alone. Total mess. His mum is a minimal cleaner. We have made an agreement and we meet in the middle. He sticks to the agreement. I stick to the agreement. There are also some things I will not do for him, such as buying gifts for his friends and relatives and doing his ironing.

If you are telling your husband you are pissed off, if you have been saying it for 25 years and he isn't listening, then he is ignoring you. If he told you that you were pissing him off with something so routine would you ignore him?

If you don't want to get angry about being ignored I don't have an answer really. I would be bloody raving if my husband ignored me like that! Does it matter if it is a small thing or a big thing? He's saying it's a small thing. Society is saying it's a small thing but you're posting here about it so I am guessing in some way you're actually pretty annoyed.

And in my house, I'm at home to look after the kids. I'm not here (meaning at home, but equally I could mean on this planet!) to do bloody housework. I do everything related to the kids plus I shop and cook during working hours but I don't see why being at home makes you responsible for cleaning toilets, dusting, windows etc. If you were out at work and the kids were at nursery then the housework would be shared in evenings/weekends. If one of the parents is doing the 'nursery' role, why do they automatically get the 'domestic service' role as well?

I think until women get militant about cleaning, it's never gonna change. I have a sister who moans about having to do her husband's ironing. I said well don't do it? She said 'but I like him to look smart'. Words failed me at that point.

Obviously I also prioritise mumsnet over cleaning too!

I'm sure other people will 'get' the analogy Amelia and won't assume that an adult actually believes that cars maintain themselves.

Women working part-time is a connected issue with its roots again in sexism and patriarchy. Factors include disparities between men and women's professional aspirations and earning potential, as well as societal assumptions that women are by default, better placed to parent children and therefore work part-time.

I disagree that this is about paid working hours. It is better to compare leisure hours, but even this is not enough because the chores we are describing here are repetitive and for many people, boring and mundane. Just like at work, it is fairer if boring, mundane tasks are shared around the workforce otherwise people will become demotivated and resentful. This is no different, except in a loving partnership where there should be mutual respect and care for the other's feelings, one person should care very much if the other is unhappy and resentful - and would want to share the load.

I think the reason people of any age have been conditioned to think this is women's work is because society still expects it and I don't think it's because mothers fail to educate their sons. That's just blaming women again and assumes that educating children is yet again a female responsibility. Children who have been brought up by parents who saw it as their joint responsibility to do housework and their joint responsibility to educate, are better able to resist the societal conditioning.

As for getting a cleaner to do these chores, until there is a 50-50 split of male/ female cleaners in the workforce, getting one perpetuates the myth that this is female work and brings us back to my second paragraph about female aspirations and earning potential.

stern this is obviously a topic on which you have very strong views - not without a touch of prejudice- and I can see there's no chance of reasoning with you, even when you are faced with simple facts. so bye for now and off to do some cleaning!

LOL at 50-50 men/women cleaners. Are you seriously saying that you would not employ a female cleaner? sorry but this is hysterical. if you want a cleaner and want a man to do it- find one! No one is forcing a woman to be a cleaner- so cut the crap and face reality.