DV by children against parent please help

[FinallyBeaten]

Sorry I have name changed for this but I am a regular on here. Sorry about the title, it sounds really melodramatic but that is how it is in our house.

The brief story is that I am a single mother to two children one KS1 and one KS2. They were physically and emotionally abused by their father for several years without my knowledge. He also physically abused me but not often. Since we have been living separately the children have felt freer to talk about what happened with their father and generally tell me their lives are a lot better. But I have seen a lot of behavioural problems with them particularly with how they treat me. They lie, steal and hurt each other very badly, not just normal squabbling stuff, which is what they have learned from him. They will not listen to what I tell them to do, they shout and screech and make weird noises all the time, they will not do anything to help me whatever approach I take (either reward or taking away TV privileges).

Recently one of them attacked me with the metal end of a dog lead and hit me several times in the face with it and then hit me ten or fifteen times in the body. This was for no reason whatsowever. The child just came out of the bedroom into my room and laid into me as I lay in bed. I called my parents for help and the child then attacked my mother. Last night the other one punched me full-force in the boob and it really hurt. I am bitterly ashamed that I smacked the child on the arm to stop it happening again. This was because I had asked them to get undressed for their bath. They regularly hurt me by being very rough around me and take no notice when I ask them to be gentle. For example one of them came up to me and kissed me which was lovely and then followed it up by biting me really hard on teh nose. They can be kind and loving but I never know which side of them I am going to see and I am getting to the stage where I am scared of them as they can really hurt me badly.

This sounds so pathetic. I have tried so hard to give them love and understanding of what they have been through with their father. Apart from last night I have never hit either of them. I feel gutted that I have descended to this level but it just hurt so much and I am sick of being used as an emotional and physical punchbag by these children. They don't seem to understand love and kindness and mistake it for weakness and a signal that they can ride roughshod over me. I set limits and have punishments for them for unacceptable behaviour ie I make them sit on the stairs or take away TV time. I do this consistently and see that the punishment is carried out. But it seems to have no effect and I just feel like a servant and a punchbag for these children. I love them dearly but feel they have been so damaged and I do not know how to cope. They are having counselling and treatment but I do not think it is helping. Things are getting worse not better and honestly I am desparate. I feel like I cannot go on with this any more. Please help.

I'm sorry you're all going through this OP and I wish you every success in the courts. Abuse from kids to parents doesn't get talked about much (google it and nothing comes up).

ONe thing I realised when teen ds was hitting me was that my posture crouched - I literally(semi) cowered. Next time I could feel the bristle of violence (which meant an attack was imminent) I stood TALL, my back absolutely straight, and looked directly into his eyes. It sounds like a small thing but it makes all the difference. Be mindful of your posture, even after an attack - it's almost an animal thing: make yourself 'big', not to dominate but to confirm your authority/position. ds immediately snapped into awareness when I did this, whereas the crouching inflamed the violence/his dominance. He was a good foot taller than me at the time and it was quite ridiculous in one way, with me so much shorter/smaller than him, that I was able to 'overpower' him in such a simple way. I did this just a few times and he never hit me again.

I appreciate though that our situation was very different to yours in that your dc's behaviour is learned behaviour (though I could argue that ds's was also learned behaviour in that ex/his father was extremely abusive emotionally/psychologically but not physically towards me) and it appears in your case that the violence sometimes comes from nowhere eg the kiss/bite. However, I would get every possible authority onto this to get it documented in order to pre-empt any application ex makes for access . Move this up a gear (or 10) OP. Push full-on for appropriate support - it is not good enough that eg CAMHS haven't taken this up and swung into action.

Wishing you the very best with this very distressing problem. You are not alone, not by a long chalk imo

NB I appreciate what your solicitor has said but what is happening needs to be documented, the full account, partiuclarly the causal link to their behaviour. You know in your mind why they are behaving like this, don't be brow-beaten by any legal system should they/he attempt to twist the truth. STAND UP for what you know is the truth.

I know you are a woman and their mother but you have to take on the dominant, rather than the nurturing, role for a while to make it clear who is top dog. Their father was an animal and they are behaving like pack animals (the way he taught them).

Well, I have spoken to the counsellor who listened very nicely and then suggested she would bring in some calming esential oils to the next session. I also spoke to the CAHMS team but we don't have our first appointment through yet (we have had an initial assessment but will have to wait until Jan/Feb for proper treatment) and she said she couldn't advise until we go for our first appointment. So then I have made an appointment to see the GP next week - third time lucky I hope. Running out of options here.

Fuckity fuck! I assume she is not suggesting spraying them in kids eyes without diluting them first!!!

Sorry, but oh golly what a totally stupid thing for her to suggest...almost laughable.

Keep going, someone will help. I will keep my fingers crossed for GP x

Have the same issues as OP. Would be grateful for any help/advice.

I think you may have to make a nuisance of yourself OP. ie really pull out all the stops and be a PITA, a thorn in their (CAMHS) side. It may be against the grain for you to do this but there's a lot at stake here!

I take it the counsellor is your counsellor? hence the children are not her remit? hence she is professionally bound to not get involved? hence the essential oils..........

Don't lose hope! It's taken your kids 7-11 years to learn this behaviour, it's not going to fade overnight or within a few months. This is going to be a long, hard slog - possibly years of you modelling the behaviour and nurturing/ caring environment that you now want to see. Essential oils are not good enough as an intervention for your children.

An intervention along these lines should help:
www.amazon.com/Integrated-Intervention-Conduct-Problems-behaviour-attachment-systems/dp/1875378588

How are you rewarding the behaviour you want to see currently? As others have said, I would be really focusing on frequently praising and cuddling/ stroking/ kissing your children when you see any good behaviour. Not tokens/ material rewards - love and attention. The book I linked to is really good but more for psychologists/ clinicians. You really, really need an intensive intervention like the one I've linked to above. I'm frustrated for you at these professionals being so unresponsive/ unhelpful when you tell them about your problems. Have you told them how desperately and urgently you need intensive help?

There is hope!!!

PS: It may sound idealistic but I would echo those who have said - don't resort to smacking to try to deal with this! (I understand why you did as a one-off and am not judging/ blaming you, I probably would have too.) But hitting your children, even in a different way, to try to assert your authority may work in the short-term but in the long-term it is just entrenching the idea that hitting = asserting power, effective discipline, an OK way for adults to behave, etc. They need to learn that it is utterly unacceptable and wrong to treat others in this way.

i.e., they need to develop an INTERNAL sense of right and wrong, an internal control over their behaviour, not behave in a desirable way through fear of physical injury/ an external source for their correct/ morally right behaviour.

Oh and I agree, shorter punishments are supposedly more effective in teaching children to behave better - i.e., losing something for half an hour, not weeks on end. Imagine just being punished all the time for your behaviours, you would feel like you were living in quite a stark, hopeless environment with punishments looming out ahead of you for weeks on end. Kids need to feel the disappointment of losing something they want as a consequence of their behaviour, but they also need to be able to feel hope about being able to "make good" and earn back a privilege or have a second chance, through good behaviour. They need chances at showing that they can behave well, and practising behaving well, and having shorter-term punishments provides more incentive for that.

Have you attended any behaviourally based parenting programs? Like Triple P? (I have skimmed over your thread and not seen any evidence of this but may have missed something?)

Thank you all again for your replies. I had typed out a really good reply and then the computer seized up and it is gone forever.

I have ordered the Lundy Bancroft book somene recommended earlier so I am hoping that will give me some practical help with how to manage this on a day to day basis.

Bo, I am sorry to hear you are in the same boat. Please PM me if you would like, not that I can offer any advice as you can see!

Springydaffs, no, this is the children's counsellor (arranged through their school)! I might go back to the school to see if they can offer any more help as they have been really supportive so far, but I am hesitating a bit about this as the children are settling in relatively well at school and I don't want to "pollute" that by dragging issues from home over to the school, if that makes sense. But if I have no luck with the GP then I guess there is no choice.

THanks for the tip about posture - not something I had ever considered, but now I think about it I am sure I do cringe away. I will stand tall and be Top Dog. Subliminally these things can be so effective so thank you.

Fluffball thank you for all your input, really helpful. I try to show the children how to deal with anger in a good way eg I will say "I am just going to calm down for two minutes and then I will speak to you" and I have shown them that they can talk or punch their pillows as an alternative, but I think the first reaction they now have is to hit. They know it is wrong and I think their behaviour also upsets them as they know they are out of order, they just don't know how to over-ride all the programming they have had from him. It upsets them to think they are like him as they really hate him.

Smacking was a really poor reaction and I am bitterly ashamed of myself for doing that. I do worry though that anything involving superior physical strength even restraining them in a non-violent way also reinforces that message ie I am stronger/bigger than you so I can make you do what I want. No idea how to get round this and still keep myself safe.

They do I think get a lot of attention from me and a lot of positive reinforcement and demonstrations of love and affection. I am a bit soppy with these children sometimes I must admit. I am very careful to say negative things about their behaviour and not about them as a person. For their punishments, these are usually short term eg being sent on the stairs (5 mins), losing their TV time for that day. Occasionally I will ban them from TV for longer or cancel their activities for one session (ie one week) but that is a last resort for really bad behaviour and by the end of the punishment it is too far removed from the "crime" to have any lasting sense of cause and effect.

I will keep plugging away. Thanks for your encouragement and support.

sounds like the counsellor has zero expereince of Dv etc ...hopefully CAMHS will help, or maybe someone recomended via womens aid or local dv project?

No the holding by the wrists just shows that you are stronger because you are the parent and are controlling the situation - you do it with love (I know that sounds soppy) and do the talking/hugging as outlined above.

I have no experience or expertise in this area, but we have had some pretty severe behavioural issues where we sometimes had to restrain ds for his own and others' safety. I just explained what I was doing: 'I'm holding you tight now because I know you're not in control of your temper and I can't let you hurt yourself or anyone else. When you've got your temper under control, I will let go.' Repeated, endlessly, through screaming and kicking and attempts to bite. Two years on, he can say 'I'm beginning to feel angry now so I'm going to take a break.' Martial arts, oddly, helped - lots of stuff about controlling anger and being responsible. And lots of exercise helps.

Just re-read my last post - when I said to take on the dominant role 'for a while' I didn't mean wall-to-wall, but to have it in your arsenal iyswim. I think as LP we have to take on both the male and female roles. I found that the 'nurturing' role (the instinct to nurture) became more pronounced, as they had lost their dad and it had all been very difficult, and I had to be mindful to present the male role when appropriate. It didn't come naturally though, I had to work on it.

I don't think I've explained that very well but I hope you know what I mean?

I have no experience at all of this but your situation sounds horrendous. I remember a hearing about a charity (Parentlink I think?) that campaigns on this - might be worth getting in touch with them?

Please don't think you are pathetic or doing a bad job - you sound loving and dedicated to your children. Noone would blame anyone other than your ex for this situation.

Also, counsellors are not necessarily qualified to deal with certain things (ime of some counsellors, the training can be woefully inadequate): in which case, I do wish they would say so and refer! Instead of faffing about with effing essential oils - so irresponsible!

Do you have the funds to pay for private therapy? If you don't have much spare, I would research appropriate private therapists and approach them to ask if they offer a sliding scale of fees - a lot do. I'm not sure a private therapist's recommendations would hold much sway in the courts (??) but it is urgent intervention you need while eg CAMHS are getting their act together. Just a thought.

Ah, apologies, have googled now and it's ParentLine. Link is familylives.org.uk/

I think they deal mainly with issues around parenting teenagers but you can ring them and get advice whatever your situation. HTH

I think what Imogen says, on page 2, is spot on. Read it again please?

Also, as said before, normal parenting is probably not adequate in the situation. So what you need to try to achieve is therapeutic parenting. There are books on this, if you feel like reading up on it.

I totally agree that the fact that your DCs violence is mostly directed at you is an indication that they feel safe with you. They are uncertain about everything in the world, you are their only point of certainty. They keep testing you because they NEED the reassurance, all the time, that whatever they do, you still love them. At the same time, they test YOU, and not other people, because they know YOU will not abandon them and will keep loving them.

One last though: I believe that these kind of things often tend to get worse before they get better. You said therapy wasn't helping, things were just getting worse. I'd say to that, things getting worse is possibly a result of them working through their emotions. It has to get out, somehow. It is probably an important step in their recovery.

Good luck to you, sincerely. You are doing an amazing job, being there for your children and doing whatever it takes, and getting the help you need, despite the fact that you yourself have had a tough, traumatic time as well. Don't forget that.