DV by children against parent please help

[FinallyBeaten]

Sorry I have name changed for this but I am a regular on here. Sorry about the title, it sounds really melodramatic but that is how it is in our house.

The brief story is that I am a single mother to two children one KS1 and one KS2. They were physically and emotionally abused by their father for several years without my knowledge. He also physically abused me but not often. Since we have been living separately the children have felt freer to talk about what happened with their father and generally tell me their lives are a lot better. But I have seen a lot of behavioural problems with them particularly with how they treat me. They lie, steal and hurt each other very badly, not just normal squabbling stuff, which is what they have learned from him. They will not listen to what I tell them to do, they shout and screech and make weird noises all the time, they will not do anything to help me whatever approach I take (either reward or taking away TV privileges).

Recently one of them attacked me with the metal end of a dog lead and hit me several times in the face with it and then hit me ten or fifteen times in the body. This was for no reason whatsowever. The child just came out of the bedroom into my room and laid into me as I lay in bed. I called my parents for help and the child then attacked my mother. Last night the other one punched me full-force in the boob and it really hurt. I am bitterly ashamed that I smacked the child on the arm to stop it happening again. This was because I had asked them to get undressed for their bath. They regularly hurt me by being very rough around me and take no notice when I ask them to be gentle. For example one of them came up to me and kissed me which was lovely and then followed it up by biting me really hard on teh nose. They can be kind and loving but I never know which side of them I am going to see and I am getting to the stage where I am scared of them as they can really hurt me badly.

This sounds so pathetic. I have tried so hard to give them love and understanding of what they have been through with their father. Apart from last night I have never hit either of them. I feel gutted that I have descended to this level but it just hurt so much and I am sick of being used as an emotional and physical punchbag by these children. They don't seem to understand love and kindness and mistake it for weakness and a signal that they can ride roughshod over me. I set limits and have punishments for them for unacceptable behaviour ie I make them sit on the stairs or take away TV time. I do this consistently and see that the punishment is carried out. But it seems to have no effect and I just feel like a servant and a punchbag for these children. I love them dearly but feel they have been so damaged and I do not know how to cope. They are having counselling and treatment but I do not think it is helping. Things are getting worse not better and honestly I am desparate. I feel like I cannot go on with this any more. Please help.

How could you not have known about the abuse OP? If exh was so secretive about it then maybe they have learned more from him than you yet realise. Manipulation etc.

It's not pathetic, you're a brave mum struggling with a very difficult situation. I second what solidgoldvampirebat says. I think you should keep asking for more support from school, your GP and the counsellor. Sometimes you have to be demanding in order to get the help you need.

I have no expertise in this area, hopefully the counsellor will be able to give you more practical advice. As far as I know, a year is quite a short time for children who have experienced trauma, so it's not surprising that their behaviors are very difficult. The parenting techniques that traumatised children need aren't always the same as those for children who are just being naughty.

Sorry I can't be more help, I really hope you manage to get more support.

I did not know about the abuse as he did it when I was out of the house working and he threatened them with worse if they told anyone. Of coure he was secretive about it as he knew I would never put up with it for a milisecond. Sadly the children have learned a lot from him, you are right, and I hope to counteract it by showing a different example as I always have but it is not working.

It IS purely the fault of their father, I realise that, which is why I have so much coompassion for them and perhaps why I have let things go on this long and get to this stage. I can see almost carbon copies of incidents they have told me about with their father being played out on each other and on me. It is frightening. They are such poor children, they have put up with a lot and I just want to give them love and comfort but it is not working.

You are right marmite I think in that my ordinary parenting techniques just are not what is needed here. The children do not respond to either punishment (non-physical) or rewards - they do like the rewards but it doesn't incentivise them to more good behaviour. THey are both bright and switched on so they know how it works, they just dont care. They can be so loving and lovely but there is this other side to them that I just cannot deal with.

I am going to have to ask for more help I think as it can't go on like this. I will ask the cousellor later in teh week and take it from there. Thank you for all your help and support

Poor you FinallyBeaten. Have some experience of being where you are, and entirely agree that withholding treats, TV etc isnt the solution to this.

My DD and I escaped from an abusive situation too. Maybe your children are angry and confused about what happened to them and this is the only way they can express what they are feeling safely (for them anyway, if not for you?

Psychotherapy for my DD (referred by a psychiatrist) and weekly support from a psychiatric nurse turned things round for us. If its any consolation, she is a kind, happy, perfectly 'normal' girl now. It is worth getting professional help x

Don't be worried about accessing any help you can get. Talk to NSPC, parentline, gps, HV, SS, school. The fact that you are seeking help and can show you have done so and fact that this is your DCs 'acting out' what happened to them in the care of their father will be evidence that will go in your favour if ex goes to court. Asking for help is a plus point on your side, shows you are taking it seriously, finding solutions. There is help around, but be strong and persistent in demanding it. Keep a behaviour book for yourself, so that you can monitor what happens when, what works/doesn't work with regarding rewards/sanctions and also see if there are triggers or patterns to when they kick off.

You are awesome!! You are getting help for them and for you. And you are loving them through everything. I hope you get a break through before you get to a point where it becomes too hard.

Don't feel bad for being human and for hitting out to protect yourself. Use this to talk to them about the impact of their actions and the impact of their father's actions. Keep talking to the professionals about it especially in terms of how it is playing out what they have seen so that it can be seen for what it really is should it come up in your ex's access challenge.

I think that sanctions and rewards are unlikely to be the right tools and you compassion and love and trying to teach them that instead is where you need to go with it. Is there anyone who can teach you effective restraint techniques that you can manage? Or in a calm moment, can you talk to your children about how you and they can work out a strategy to stop this, eg if you say something that will resonate with them or if you retreat to an agreed safe place they should recognise that they have crossed the line.

Keep talking to your children about their actions and demand help from your professionals, within hearing of your children so they can report back on their own behaviour each session.

It really sounds like you are doing the right thing. Do your children know you didn't know about the abuse and that if you had known you would have done anything to protect them? Remind them, tell them that you can't go back but you are doing your best for them now and always will.

do they know he is seeking access? this might be troubling them as well..

good avice above to get (more) profressional help.

if in london the anna freud centre can help www.annafreud.org/ and they give a free half hour telephone consultation

Really awful situation for you. It's early days, and I think it's probably an entirely normal reaction to the trauma they have suffered at the hands of their father. I think posters are right that the normal routes don't apply, sanctions etc. They are going to have to re-learn what is normal and what are the socially acceptable routes for interaction. They are just displaying what they have learned, how to get control, as well as coping with what must have been such a distressing and scary time for them (and you). Especially at such a vulnerable age, for them they are also still suffering from the loss ofntheir father, even if in rather an ambiguous way. They are damaged and it's just going to be a long road to get them back on track. You sound marvellous by the way, and very strong...you got yourself and them out of this situation and you can and will get yourselves through this. Just keep getting help, they both need a really good counsellor / psychologist ( sorry I am not an expert on the best type of help) but sure some mums on here will be able to point you in the right direction. They are probably afraid of being left again, and testing, testing you all the time. As long as you stay strong, firm but loving and assure them you are not going anywhere and you love them unconditionally, hopefully things will start to improve for you and your family

My recommendation would be: as soon as they hit you, grasp them firmly by the wrists, one wrist in each of your hands. Hold their hands as still as you can while telling them firmly that people do not attack other people. Release only when they have calmed down.

About the smacking - in cases where physical pain is involved I have used smacking. When DS was tiny and wanted to investigate the sockets, I warned, then smacked - because he needed to associate sockets with pain so he would avoid them. I only did it maybe twice - he learned. that was to do with his own physical safety and pain, but for the odd incident when they have hurt me, I have used a single hard slap to the calf. It stings, but does not damage. I have a dim memory of saying 'it hurt when you kicked me' or whatever it was. This is because they hit you without really realising it causes you pain - they want to hit, not hurt, I think.

All of which sounds as if it was all fighting in our house. Far from it. In all I have smacked perhaps 5 times, in bringing up 2 kids to adulthood.

It gets a problem as they get stronger. For a few months, aged 12, DD was a school resister, me and OH went through a stage of having to carry her, rigid, into the car to drive her to school.

I really don't think smacking is the answer in this case. They have been through so much violence already they have learned that it is the only way to get control and power. They need to understand that there are different coping strategies to deal with their feelings apart from violence. I don't advocate smacking but understand that a smack in an otherwise loving environment may have it's place. In this instance it will just perpetuate the learned behaviours and expectations.

That's why on the leg. Then it is a smack, not an attack.

Although I understand your reservations.

Try reading this book 'When Dad Hurts Mom: Helping Your Children Heal the Wounds of Witnessing Abuse' by Lundi Bancroft.
Its written for women in your situation and it covers what you're going through now.
www.amazon.co.uk/When-Dad-Hurts-Mom-Witnessing/dp/0425200310/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323174954&sr=8-1

do they let you cuddle them OP? They might need in part help learning how to connect with you in the normal way. you sound amazing btw

Tell them, 'that hurts me, no one in this family is to hurt anyone else again'. Give them a hug. Tell them you love them. Endlessly. They need to hear it endlessly. When they are bored with it, they'll tell you!It will get better. They need to work through this and they need you to keep being who you are!

Exactly this

yyy imogen, I knew I used to say something loving while holding their wrists, something like, I know you are feeling angry then on to stuff about it being unacceptable, then unconditional love and it would usually end with a cuddle. Thanks for bringing it back to me more clearly .

Mine had some reason to be angry with me when quite little, as they had experienced being parented by someone going into a hypomanic state (me), while OH was at work They have turned out just fine though :)

unacceptable to hurt (not unacceptable to be angry)

good advice above.
also to talk with them (when they calm) about other ways to express their feelings/anger/sadness. set up a "calm" room or space where they can get physical with a punch bag?

my dd hit out a lot after we left exP - said she "couldnt help it" - that is what exP used to say .

can you meet with their counsellor and see what might work better? also about someone supporting you more as well? maybe someone coming into the home?

unacceptable to hurt - by which I mean unacceptable to hurt someone else, not unaccepatable to feel hurt.

Thank you all so much. There is some really great advice on here. I am going to sit and look through it all properly and take time to process it. Thank you all so much for your time and help. You cannot know how much it means to have support in this sort of situation. I have finally plucked up courage today to talk to my parents about how bad it has got. They did not have a lot to say but they said they are going to think about it and what to do too, so that might help. I will speak to the counsellor tomorrow and see if she can help and I am also going to phone up the CAHMS people and ask them for more help. I have also had a calm talk with the dcs at tea time and told them that what has been happening with hurting people will never happen again.

I feel torn up that I have shown them I am like him by smacking the dc the other night. That was so the wrong thing to do but I guess it was in the throes of the moment of being punched and hurt. God it makes me think of my ex and what he used to do and now they are doing it too. It makes my blood run cold. The idea of holding their wrsts is realy good, very simple and I should be able to manage that. I am going to prepare it in my head so it is what I do as an automatic reaction and I don't need to think about what to do when/if it happens again.

The youngest gets very panicked and reacts badly to shouting and I am also going to work on staying calm and not escalating situations by raising my voice.

Sometimes they are very loving, they even get to be very clingy and quite OTT with their hugging and kissing and the things they say. They love to snuggle up and cuddle, most of the time. They act quite babyish and like to put on baby voices and say things in a baby way. I think I must say I love them about twenty times a day. They say it a lot to me too so something must be right . We will not let him beat us.

Thank you all again so so much.

You are nothing nothing at all like their abusive father. You have simply shown them that you are close to (not at) the end of your tether. Tell them how sorry you are for smacking. Tell them that while it is not an excuse people do lose control. Tell them that you understand that they get angry and lose control. Tell them you love them and made a mistake. Tell then you know they love you and are making mistakes. Tell them again and again that as a family you can all change this.

Tell them you know they can stop hurting people and show them how.

I really do know that it is all easy to say (or type) but this might be a real point of change for them. They now have a role model who lashed out (I know it was not that dramatic) but regrets it and will ensure it does not happen again.

FB - I truly think that modelling how people overcome fear and anger very very deliberately will help them to believe they can do it.

BTW in a similar situation I have known the local friendly Policeman to go to a house and explain about assault. This was a stunningly good man who pitched telling the youngster about consequences just right. I suspect this would not be appropriate now but given that they have such a crap male role model it might be a idea you could adapt? Do they have a favourite Uncle, neighbour - someone they look up to? Anyway probably not for now just a thought to store away!

You sound lovely and very brave - do you know how lucky your children are?

"Sometimes they are very loving, they even get to be very clingy and quite OTT with their hugging and kissing and the things they say. They love to snuggle up and cuddle, most of the time. They act quite babyish and like to put on baby voices and say things in a baby way." This makes a lot of sense. They may be trying to catch up on some bits of childhood that they missed out on when they were having to deal with your ex. It's good that they now feel safe enough to do this.

"We will not let him beat us." Good on you OP!

Shiraz..spot on. I smacked my little ones bottom once and felt dreadfully guilty about it. When we had calmed down I told him I was sorry, but explained why I had done it (he was about to run in the road and I was terrified!) this really helped him understand better and that whilst I had hurt him, I still loved him. OP don't beat yourself up about that, you were at the end of your tether and saw that as the only way out at the time. It sounds like a real turning point for you and your children and I wish you all the luck and good wishes

You sound amazing.

FWIW I'd talk to the school. I'd be surprised if they didn't already notice some issues. Sorry I can't be much help for home life.

There are several things school could do (it depends on your school and borough but any of these could be possible and help the situation):

a) a learning mentor at school
b) assessment/work with an educational psychologist
c) liaison with CAMHS/external agencies etc to provide a Team Around the Child
d) apply for funding through local borough (statements) - I've been on an SEN panel (where the funding is decided) and there was a teenage boy who was hitting his mother and she was beginning to fear for her safety - the borough funded a residential school for him. You are not at that stage but they could well take it seriously and help provide you with funding for the support you could use.

There are people who can help you - you don't need to do this alone. I feel for you though.

fin can you pm me please? been where you are with my 3 sons,