Should our marriage counselling

[fridakahlo]

sessions really be about persuading me how lucky I am to have my husband?
After six years of marriage, my husband and I got to a place where we had to sort out the unhealthy aspects of our relationships. And he has made a real effort, I can't deny that at all but I don't feel I can be who he needs me to be in order for the marriage to work. If I stay then he and the kids don't loose anything, but I will be miserable, but secure.
If I go then totally disrupt our lives, he will have to give up his job (because we are living abroad and I can't stay unless I'm married to him, so myself and the kids would have to move home, probably to live with my mother in the shortterm and he would move back to be close to the kids). THe kids (especially dd would loose friends, the house, the lifestyle. So so much to loose and not much to gain but I don't love him and I'm only staying for the kids, he wants something from me that I can't give him.
Anyone?

Hi OP, what does he want?

What are you wanting from marriage guidance then? The way you have laid out your OP, it sounds rather as if you hope someone will say the magic words that will make you comfortable with the status quo. If that's the impression the counsellor has received from you - or from him without you dissenting - then she/he can't fairly be blamed for conducting the sessions in that way.

I think perhaps you should consider a little solo counselling where you can work out what you really do want. If the bottom line is that you really do not want to be married to this person, even if he hasn't done anything wrong, it might be difficult to explore that in front of him, until you definitely know.

Would be intrigued to know what it is he wants from you that you can't give - is it just love?

He has done things wrong, quite a few things but at the moment he is making a real sustained effort to change the way he is towards myself and the children. And yes the desire for the magic words is spot on, I just feel so selfish knowing that staying won't make me (Or realistically him) happy.
The things that need to change from my end is my attitude towards monogamy, even though now he is saying that if I really can't face being monogomous for the rest of my life then between the two of us, we will come to some sort of agreement whereby I get what I want with certain limits and boundaries. I'm not sure I can stick to 'boundaries' in light of the fact that I really don't feel any romantic committed love towards him.
So I am going to tell him tonight that we will get through christmas and then it's over.
Just feel so bloody selfish.

The problem will be getting him to accept that.

If you no longer want to be in the relationship then he will have to accept it.

But you don't have to get him to accept it. He doesn't have to agree. If you don't want to be in the marriage, that's the end of it.
But somebody is going to end up hurt.
It sounds as though you want him to be happy about your decision to end it.
That's not going to happen.

Yes, thats true, he won't be happy. I've tried to walk away three times and he has litrally begged, following me around the house, to give it another try. So I just need to practice saying, "no, it's over."

Exactly fidakahlo. Do you have anywhere to go to after telling him. Get out as quickly as possible so he can't sob you into submission again.

Thats one of the problems, I'm three thousand miles away from anywhere to go. Though I could go and hole up with my friend Lisa. I do think I should try and stay until the new year, get christmas over and done with and then rip our lives apart. But I will tell him tonight.

Ok, if that's what you want to do. Don't quite understand the "ripping your lives apart" - is this what he is saying you will be doing?

I smell a bit of emotional blackmail here.

Start making plans now though ay.

What has he done to you and DC's in the past?

Telling him tonight would be a bit cruel wouldnt it? What kind of a Christmas would you all have? If yo are going to end it in the new year then end it in the new year, and if you are going to end it now then end it now.

If it was a case of just hopping on a trian with the kids and being at my mothers in a couple of hours then I would walk right now. As it is, I think waiting for the new year will give me time to sort things out with my mum, get flights booked for me and the kids and give him time to consider his options in the light of his career. Telling him tonight is less cruel than letting him think we are still working on things for another month.
We had some low level emotional abuse and invasion of boundaries going on. Not that I was ever perfect or lovely but I did have a good reason to be less than stable as I have suffered from depression on and off for a long time. Now I think I've finally found some meds that I feel stable on and therefore strong enough to make this decision.

It's not quite as straightforward as it seems is it, Frida? As I recall, you have suffered from long-term depression and have also been diagnosed as bi-polar.

Acting on impulse and risk-taking which puts you in danger seems to have featured in your history and, from one of your responses on a recent thread. it appears to be something that you still hanker after.

Back the summer you left your dh & dc in the States and returned to London for 5 weeks or so where you engaged in S&M with strangers.
When you returned to your family, you were again on the point of leaving your dh because you didn't have the freedom to continue walking on the wild side.

I responded to your post on that particular issue back in early September. You were proposing to uproot the dc and return to the UK to live with your mother but realised that the help you needed to come to terms with your condition was, at that time, more readily available to you in the States.

When I saw your response to a post last month when you expressed yourself as glad that you didn't walk away from your dh and enthused about the way which he had turned his work/life balance around to support you, I hoped you that you had reached a level of understanding about how some of your impulses are prompted by your condition, and that your desire to cut loose and live dangerously is not conducive to raising your dc as a single parent.

I'm therefore very sorry to read your latest post today and I hope that you will at least reconsider your intention to drop another bombshell on your dh as he is most probably blissfully unaware that you have once again changed your mind about staying in your marriage in a heartbeat, so to speak.

I won't attempt to urge you to reconsider your latest decision but, for the sake of your dc, I do urge you to refrain from telling your dh tonight that it is your intention to leave after Christmas and to wait until the festive season is over before discuss your latest plans with him.

My reasoning is that your dc will have inevitably have been affected by your mood-swings and I wouldn't like to think that their stability and enjoyment of the run-up to the big day may be marred by uncertainty about whether they'll be leaving their friends and where they may be living in the New Year.

I seem to recall that, with the help of a nanny, your dh worked full-time and cared for the dc effectively as a single parent during your last trip home and I'm wondering whether a less disruptive way forward for you all may be for to you to negotiate periodic 'time off' whereby you cut loose for a month or so on a regular basis, either in the UK or another city in the US, while your dc continue to benefit from a stable home life and all that America can offer them.

Blimey, now there's a change around

He brought it home to me the other night as we were talking, that yes things have improved between us but that has not changed my feelings towards him.
And you are right I was being assessed for bi-polar but had not actually been diagnosed when I last posted. Since then my pyschiatrist and pyschotherepist have agreed between them that what actually happened was a manic episode that was triggered by the anti-deppressant I was on. So I've switched from that medication to another one and lo and behold my desire for masochistic sex with strangers has vanished. But that has not made the way I feel about my husband change.
And thats part of the problem, I am finding it really hard to trust my feelings and my judgment but I just keep on coming back round to the fact that I don't love him and I don't want to spend the rest of my life with him, regardless of what else is going on.
That is an interesting suggestion on the last line but not one that he would agree to, a couple of years ago I was begging for just an occaisional weekend where I could just go to a hotel and sleep. His answer was no.
And the only reason I was in the uk over the summer was at his instigation and the only reason that he had the kids was because he wouldn't let me take them with me, despite the fact that both my mother and my step-father would have been there to help look after them.
And I still don't know where their passports are.
Have to go out now but I will come and check back later.

What AD were you taking that allegedly triggered the manic episode and what are you taking now?

I was on Venlafaxine anti-d
and citalopram. Apparently it was probably triggered by the Venlafaxine.
I'm now on bupropion and citalopram.

This is your earlier post: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1300745-Im-a-slut-and-he-wont-let-go

I've had a look at some of the numerous responses you've made on various threads and you've given some excellent advice to others and I hope you'll accept my obsevations in the non-judgemental manner in which they are made.

From those responses I've ascertained that your teenage years were somewhat dysfunctional and at one point you worked in the sex industry. It also seems that you hold a torch for your 'third serious boyfriend' who you wish you'd 'followed to Australia'. Did he ask you to go with him? Did he inidcate whether he'd be overjoyed if you turned up unannounced on his doorstep down under?

Sex in one form or another appears to have been something of an issue for you for some considerable time. My concern is that is that you may use sex as a form of self-harm - from your response on the 'sister raped and self-destructing thread' I got the feeling that you wished you were careering around Europe stoned and vulnerable to abuse.

It also became apparent that you regard life without drama as 'boring' and this leads me to wonder whether your latest period of monogamous domesticity, albeit brief, has resulted in you craving a less predictable and staid lifestyle, and whether your current intention to 'rip our lives apart' is motivated more by your desire to interject some excitement into the monotany of having no other outlet for your impulses.

Have you had a confirmed diagnosis of bi-polar disorder?

Looking at your issues around monogamy, it would seem that your dh may be willing to reach an accomodation whereby you can get your kicks elsewhere within 'certain limits and boundaries'.

However, you are saying that because of your lack of 'romantic commitment' to him, you're not sure you can stick to 'boundaries'.

Taking your relationship with your dh out of the equation, the reality is that if you are living on your own with your 2 young dc you will need to observe strict limits and boundaries if your desire for a non-monogamous lifestyle is not to adversely impact on them.

In fact, without the services of babysitters and the like, it's probable that celibacy will be the order of the day - and the night as well, and I'm wondering if you've thought through the likely outcome for the 3 of you if you uproot your dc and return to the UK.

As the present time, it seems that your dh may be better placed to give your dc the stability and order they need in their lives and I'm wondering there is any way that you can live apart from dh for a period of say, 3 months or so, while you continue to reside in the UK and benefit from pyschiatric services that are less overstretched that the NHS.

In essence, I'm suggesting that you may be best advised to take your emotional pulse every few months rather than checking it everyday and reacting to its highs and lows on an ad hoc basis.

apologies - i'm woolly headed from jetlag today hence more spelling mistakes than usual and, of course, while you continue to reside in the UK should read 'while you continue to reside in the US and benefit etc'

No, I am not bi-polar and yes I do have issues surroundings sex. You are right that the children need stability hence my return and agreement to try and work on the marriage. My big problem with my husband is that if we are to stay together then I need to forgive him for a lot of stuff and I am finding it really hard to find reasons to do that beyond for the sake of the children. I don't want to be gallivanting around europe living like a free spirit, that comment was referring to (the distant) past, though I suppose kind of relevant to what happened over the summer as well.
The boyfriend who went to Australia is kind of irrelevant to this but in fact when he returned from his year away, we did get back together for a short period, which ended because I was desperatly in love with him and it was obvious that over the year away the feeling had not remained mutual. I just always wandered what would have happened if I had of been more proactive in pursuing it earlier. Anyway I was sixteen when we met and he was twenty four so that probably was not a great start.

IME forgiveness is usually a two-way street.

What do you need to forgive your husband for?

If you were your husband, are there things that he may feel he needs to forgive you for and, if so, what are they?

Did you tell your husband last night that you intend to return to the UK with the dc after Christmas?

Sorry not done, just the blasted phone. As for living apart I'd love to but a) dh needs me here so he can be off to work by seven every day and b) there is little chance that we could balance the books by doing that, so I guess I have to stick with the spare room option for the moment.
The emotional pulse taking is something that would be interesting to try and I was quite happy stumbling along, getting on with things and having cordial relations with my husband, until he challenged me on sunday night (not that he would put it like that) abouit how I was feeling and I was honest in the fact I wqwas feeling no emotional reconnection. At which point he (imo) got angry because 'he's been trying so hard and why should he bother if it does not change anything'. And left me feeling well he's got a point, is it worth more heart ache if it doesn't change anything.

If he believes that he is making all of the effort to repair, re-establish or otherwise revive or renew your relationship, your husband's frustrations are perhaps easily understandable.

Assuming that you are participating in joint marriage counselling sessions, have you exressed your reasons for wishing to end the marriage and, if so, what aspects of your relationship do you consider to be insumountable?

From your OP, in what way does it appear to you that these sessions are attempting to persuade you that you are 'lucky to have a husband'?

I suppose there is a lot of focusing on his good points and a lot of how lucky I am that he hasn't washed his hands of me. And yes I am telling them my thoughts and feelings, in that I can see rationally there are lots of good reasons for staying but that my heart does not join in the chorus. To which I am told that I need to try to feel it and whether through reluctance or just not knowing how, I can't find any of that connection. And I'm not sure I want to try, he has done some really shitty things in the past and I feel like (for me) the relationship is too damaged to ever repair, but when I bring these things up, it's always put forward that those are in the past and I need to get over it. So ok this is the most demonstratable effort he has evver made to change but we have kind of been here before, wherew I tell him I'm unhappy, he says he will sort it, things get better for a few months then we all carry on as normal. S I can't trust that this will still be what he is doing in six months time.