Do emotional abusers know they are doing it?

[moobrain]

Just wondering whether an emotional abuser is aware and planning to say what they say, or whether they are not even aware that they are doing it or it is a subconscious thing?

I think some probably don't realise, but a large proportion know exactly the effect they are having and indeed want to have

It's just that my DH can be really lovely and we can have some great times together, but every now and then he can say some really mean and cruel things to me that knock me for six, and I'm not sure if this is emotional abuse or just him being a grump. So I don't know wheter I should challenge him or whether to ignore. And if I did challenge him I don't know if he's likely to be aware how much what he says hurts or if he'll be shocked or what?

people with serious anger issues genuinely can't control the outbursts and they need therapy. They often look back with huge embarassment on their behaviour (even some celeb examples - sure Naomi Campbell knew she'd be in trouble for violence but just COULDN'T stop herself). But if your H is not in a rage but coolly abusive and very cutting rather than just swearing etc than he's likely to be calculating the effect on you (really nasty - such people wouldn't go into therapy as they enjoy doing it).

I think if you challenge him, his response will tell you a lot about whether he means to do it or not.

And whether he means to do it or not is irrelevant, it's the effect on you that matters.

If he cares about you at all, he will make efforts to stop, and more than that, actually stop.

Don't endure it, don't hope he doesn't mean it - address this before he erodes your self-esteem and makes you more miserable.

my ex was emotionally abusive and knew it

when we were going through the process of splitting and I asked him why he had treated me like that

his answer...
'because I could'

he knew what he was doing and meant every word

No he never has a rage or gets angry or swears. It is just quietly cutting comments 'those trousers make you look fat', 'you sounded really stupid whilst talking to that person' etc.

I have said that I'm not totally happy and he has said that he would come to counselling if I wanted to. Is this a good sign ?

my exh actually believes his behavior is both reasonable and deserved though he can reflect on the temper tantrums sometimes and admit he was wrong. though actually i even wonder if that is a planned part of the manipulation

the fact that he would attend counciling is a good sign that he cares about you. it sounds like he thoughtless, but not a deliberate abuser. he needs to realise at the time that he has hurt you, so stay calm and let him know. 'you probably didnt realise you were being insensitive just then' 'only someone stupid would say that I sounded stupid and not know it was out of order'

I've just started reading a book called The charm Syndrome by Sandra Horley and it's very revealing....my exp was an emotional abuser.......this book rings true on so many levels......

I storngly suggest you go to counselling on your own first.

build up your self esteem, join a gym, do something for you.

then after a few months review and see if joint counselling is the answer....but joint counselling with an abusive person wont work - except for the abusive person who will paint themselves as the victim and you as the bad guiy. he may truly believe/tell you he is telling you these things to "help" you...

does he also tell you he loves you - despite how (apparently) "fat" and "stupid" you are? (which i bet you are not...) that would be all about control - stay with me because no one else will have you - it destroys your self esteem...

is he like that friends and others? if yes, maybe he's just thick skinned and thinks other are too. Then councelling might help. If it's just with you - bad news! he can go to councelling as part of his controlling behaviour (i.e. just be there but ignore what's said - so you can't complain).

I agree with Buzz. If you want to know whether your partner is doing it on purpose or not then ask. Try not to ask during an actual argument but do it close to the time that the incident happens so that it is fresh in your mind and he can't deny it or say he doesn't remember. Remind him of the incident, tell him how it made you feel, then ask him if he realised that when he says things like that you feel X, Y, Z. Try to do it calmly as you can although, ok to be emotional, he'll see that you mean it.

If he's a decent person then he will be horrified that his comments or actions have made you feel like this and he'll genuinely make an effort not to do it again. Alternatively, his reply will be 'you're over-reacting; I don't remember saying that; it was a joke; you are a bit fat but I love you despite that; you're so moody; get over it....' in which case he's a controlling git. You might be able to do this yourself as a thought experiment but better to try it in real life then you'll be more sure of the answer.

I don't believe that h abuses me in a fully conscious way. I think that the behaviour patterns are so very deeply ingrained, that it just is his default setting. He knows he does it, he knows that it is wrong, he is in therapy, and has self referred to a perp programme.

But the core beliefs are so deep, the core belief of being some kind of victim, which justifies his abusive behaviour, is key...his dad holds the same beliefs, as does his brother. They are convinced, that it is all somehow, not fair for them. This is common in abusers. They are totally convinced that they are some kind of victim.

I have seen this in my own highly abusive family too. Their weapon of choice is sarcasm. I was an expert at it too. I don't know why I did it, but I know that I could hurt people, and it was almost a "revenge" for me feeling hurt, which I was....a lot. I am horrified at the way I have spoken to people in the past, now, post therapy. It was just the way we ALL interacted with one another, and it was utterly vile.

I do not do it any more. I am deeply ashamed of it, and very sorry to the people I hurt.

I need to add to that....since I got rid of all the abusive people in my life, and started building some solid boundary's and self esteem, I no longer have any need for abusive sarcasm.

I think another way to put your question is, Can a fundamentally decent person say really hurtful arsey things. And I think the answer is yes. And I think that decent person can get into a habit of saying hurtful arsey things (which is emotional abuse) if they are not challenged and told that it's a problem. However, I would say that the habit can be broken and it's all about how you challenge it. C'est la vie has the best advice - I would try to put aside a set time, like a month or six weeks, to just concentrate on you - be it reading/crafting/gymming - doing stuff that makes you feel satisfied and happy. Put these comments out of your mind, or they are forthcoming, try to float over them. Once you've done that, then think again about how to challenge your DH. Opening conversations like this when you feel low/hurt can be really difficult.

moobrain my exoerience is that under the word 'abuse' you have 2 very different type of attitudes.
For the same behaviour, let's say stonewalling or out down, one person can do that on purpose, because they want to hurt the opther person, they are looking for revenge etc... (That will teach him/her type of answer). Quite often the person will have that sort of behaviour only for the spouse and no one else.
Then you have a person who reacts in theis way because they are unable (at that precise time) to react in a different way. It might be because they don't deal well with anger. Or because no one has taught them how to deal with conflict and how to generate a win win situation. They might be in a place where they will 'either I win or she wins'.

My H is that second category and I found that challenging his behaviour with just a comment around 'there was no need for that' enough to stop some of his behviour and make him think about what he is doing.
In the first case scenario, they are very unlikely to take any notice of what you are saying, prob getting quite angry in the process?? In any case, you should be leaving the man anyway.

Re being grumpy : being grumpy doesn't allow you to hurt people. I keep telling my own dcs that words can hurt just as much as fists, therefore no insults allowed in the house. That's true for adults too and there is no reason for you to accept it.

Thanks all for some really helpful advice. I think what I'm struggling with is whether this is emotional abuse or just severe tactlessness. If it was a case of physical abuse then I would have no doubts and believe me I would be off.

I will build my own self esteem up and then try to point out in a non-judgmental way when he says something inappropriate, and I guess the way he reacts and whether he changes will be telling. He does tell me that he loves me (all be it not as often as I'd like) so that must be something.

Thanks again for all the replies

I don't believe my ex-husband intended to hurt me. I think he genuinely believed I was delusional as to what a relationship ought to be and that I was over-sensitive and ridiculous. Until he saw me with my fiancé at a mutual friends' wedding he thought I was going to go back to him because he was a fundamentally great guy.

His perception of reality is completely at odds with the majority of other people's. I wish he'd got help when I left for his own sake as he's not a happy man.

I think you have to raise any behaviour you find upsetting, see what his response is and take it from there. (And I agree with advice above about getting yourself into a good mental place to do that)

My DH was rather horrific for a period. He pretty much had a breakdown after work problems collided with an ill child plus severe money issue. At that time his behaviour was often unacceptable. This happened very soon after we married and I thought maybe I had married someone who seemed nice but turned into a monster after the vows.

However he went to counselling both for the behaviour and his feelings. He has addressed a lot of issues from his own childhood (his own father is, erm, interesting) and he has become a 98% reasonable man (we're all annoying in some way, aren't we?). The stresses I mention have all disappeared too so base stress is much lower.

I have discussed with my DH that I am worried if we go through stress again he will become hideous again. He thinks he will become stressed and grumpy and maybe less fun, but does not believe he will go back to being verbally aggressive and passive aggressive in turns, because he genuinely didn't know what he was doing, now he sees it, doesn't want to be like that and stops himself. He says he does occasionally get the knee jerk response of avoiding a question but he can intercept himself.

What I am saying, in a long-winded way, is I believe you can't tell without giving someone chance to explain and maybe change (this is with non-violent and not too extreme behaviour only - if he was saying 'you're a fat cow, I hate you' then there is no excuse for that). But if they don't actually change, you have to give up at some point and walk away. I would have walked (I had a deadline and was preparing things just in case) but things are so different I am now staying put, because I am happy, it's been 18 months of improvement. I also had to change some things btw, less of it was down to me but I did have to take a look at some of my contributions.

MooBrain, mine tells me he loves me every day. I think he means it. I also think he has no real idea what he's talking about, or I wouldn't have to repeatedly say that what he is doing hurts me a lot.

I struggle with the same idea: decent man with a lot of bad habits - or bad man with no intention of doing anything differently.

H believes that he loves me...and told me every day, and told me I was beautiful, and all that stuff.He swears that he never intended to hurt me.....and I do believe him, but again, his view of the world and his place in it, are massively at odds with reality.

I feel desperately, desperately sorry for him, but I cannot live with him and I cannot put the children through any more of it either.

duvetdayplease Your post gives me some hope. I am absolutely certain that DH will never be violent towards me so there is nothing at risk apart from my own self esteem. We have been under financial stress recently with me now being the working parent which I know DH finds difficult, especially as he is not a 'natural' with children (he is actually better than he thinks). However just because he is jealous etc it is still not nice to be super-critical of me.

I was absolutely certain that h would never be violent with me. I mean 100% sure that he would never in a million years be violent.

That's the thing that gets me more than anything now, I still can't believe that it is the same man. It is.

duvet is right. For quite a few 'impossible to live with' people (men and women), some counselling and the will to change can lead to dramatic changes.

The problem is whether he is is the rigt place to actually want to change and face the reality.
My H doesn't want to go for counselling for himself so any changes that happened are 'small' and it doesn't move at the pace that I and the dcs need. I know he sees he needs to change but he is nowhere near ready for it (yet).

I really really see where you are coming from. I have been told in the past that H was abusive (EA) on MN. My counsellor told me his behaviour was as hurtful as abuse. But I do know that deep down he is the one that suffers the most from us two. I wouldn't want to be at his place tbh.
However this doesn't mean you have to stay in this marriage. It's sad but being unhappy is enough of a reason to finish a relationship.

By any mean, try and open his eyes. Tell him when he is hurting you. Aproach the subject of counselling.
And see what happens.

Best of luck :)

I thought my dh didnt realise. how could anyone knowingly put someone they love down so much??. finally decided the children deserved a better example, so started telling him he was being rude (not every time, as it is constant and I havent the energy) now the children see him being rude, me telling him not to be rude, him telling me off even more for 'twisting things to be his fault'. dont think it is helping the children. still cant decide if he realises what he is doing?? not sure what exaple to set - strong woman, peace keeper, very confused on which angle to take 'for the sake of the children'.