Not sure what advice to give my DSis re: DM :(

[RoseC]

I'd really appreciate some advice please as I am at a bit of a loss.

DSis is very independent and headstrong, always has been. She was a nightmare as a child and one of her worst traits was saying things without thinking about their consequences and then not really seeing a problem with 'telling the truth'. I love her dearly, we are very close and I let her faults wash over me in a way that I couldn't when we were growing up (much, I think, as she does with mine). She has, through dint of my DM's never-ending hard work, turned into a wonderful, loyal and great person to be with.

DM had a shit childhood with parents who hated each other and a mother who was emotional abusive. My DF is a wonderful man who came from a very loving and physically affectionate family - it's taken a long time but my DM is now very similar. It has taken a lot for her to become so emotionally open - even when I was little she saw some things as 'weaknesses' (or this was the impression I got anyway).

DM has had a rubbish year emotionally. She is stuck in a horrible job that (for various reasons I don't want to go into) she cannot leave. She doesn't have good self esteem and she had MH problems linked to this at the beginning of this year which resulted in her being signed off work. She also misses both of us dreadfully (I found out, from my Dad, that this contributed to her depression). We are both studying 300+ miles from home at opposite ends of the country and none of us can afford to visit outside Easter/Christmas etc.

I am very much a homebody - DP is the main reason I am here rather than living at home. I speak to both my parents every couple of days and my Mum sends me at least one text a day. DSis is much more independent and has a much harder time on her course than I do - her subject is more difficult and her university a better standard so she struggles to excel as she was used to at our bog-standard school. She also has a very active social life.

The problem is that she doesn't see the point in calling my parents more than once a fortnight. As we are very close at home, emotionally this is really hard for my parents, Mum especially. Dad is a bit more stoic and understands - I think Mum's issues get in the way: although she understands rationally, she has a hard time emotionally.

Unfortunately DSis told my Mum yesterday - after Mum asked outright - that she doesn't like Mum calling or texting every day or every other day (calling maybe one in three days, definitely one text a day - DM contacts her less than me because she knows DSis is a bit more independent). Mum is really, really hurt and DSis feels guilty for upsetting her but 'doesn't see the point in lying or taking it back - because that would be a lie'.

I don't know what to do. Mum has taken it as a rejection and I know, rationally, that she should step back but given her MH problems I don't think she actually can and I think telling her, however gently, to do so could really inflict emotional hurt on her. DSis acknowledges that it's a shit opinion to have that you want your parents to leave you alone - she's just said that if she had children in the future and they'd said that she would be devastated (this gave me the idea to ask on MN).

DSis wants my advice but, apart from suggesting she sends a card apologising for upsetting - but not for her opinion - I don't know what to advise. We have arranged that I will always text her instead of calling to make it easier on DSis (DSis will usually bluntly tell me to bog off if she's busy but I'm her big sister and I can take it - I know she doesn't mean anything by it). Don't know what to do about DM.

Does anyone have any advice please? I know this is long. It's all tangled up in my head and I don't know what to say to either of them - I don't want to tell DM that DSis didn't mean it because a) I know she did and she's been sounding off at me about it for ages and b) DSis will not take kindly, understandably, to me lying on her behalf.

Sorry, I should say, I'd love a parent's opinion as neither of us have children so although we can imagine what is reasonable we don't really have a clue what it feels like for your child to act like DSis or me.

I think your sister should probably be prepared to compromise. Maybe her ideal is to talk to your parents once every couple of weeks, but your mum is having a hard time and needs a bit more support than that. So I think your sister should make the effort to call your parents, say once every four days when it's convenient for her. She could send a note to your mum saying something like

Dear Mum
I'm sorry I hurt your feelings the other day when I said I didn't want you to call me so often. You know that I love you a lot but I am very busy with x,y,z and it's hard to find the time to talk sometimes. I am going to make an effort to call you more often now, but please don't be upset if sometimes I don't respond to your texts right away - I often turn my phone off if I'm in the middle of something.

II cant understand why you wouldnt talk to your mum daily if only to say hello and ask her how her day was. Your sister is mean for saying one text a day is too much and one call every three days is over the top she loves her kids and wants to see how they are getting on.

Saying all that however, i thought when my son went to uni we would talk or text daily we don't because he is settled. Ive spoke to him about four times in 7 weeks. I understand though about letting him go.

I can sympathise with your sister - it was much easier in my days at uni as we didn't have phones or email, so you could only be contacted when you called. 20 years on, my mum and I talk on the same schedule we had then, and tbh I'd be narked to feel I had to speak/text every day.

Maybe your mum could write to your dsis ? That way she feels like she is in contact, your sister doesn't have to respond, and they'll have something to talk about when they speak twice a week.

I think it's ridiculous that a grown woman sees a daily text from her mum as soemthing she can't handle. If the text was abusive, or hostile then sure it would be an issue.
Sometime in the future your mum (or dad) won't be around and there will be no texts and no calls. How will she feel than about not having time to respond to a text?

To be honest I don't think a parent should rely on their children for emotional support. I have a lot of sympathy for your Mum's problems (and your sister sounds very blunt and rude which doesn't make her sound that sympathetic) but it is a parent's job to teach their children to be independent and to accept their independence as a job well done. Your Mum needs to focus on her own life now, make her own friends and enjoy the life she has with your Dad. When it is convenient for all you will talk/text/whatever but it shouldn't be a chore or a duty.

Thanks for your replies. I can see it from all sides, which is why I'm having a problem advising my sister normally I stick my nose in everywhere

I know my Mum should not rely on us as much as she does but she doesn't really have a friend at work (nature of the job & those who shared similar opinions to her got out whilst they could). She has one or two friends at home but she doesn't make an effort to go out, partly because they don't have very much money, partly she has low self esteem (so wouldn't go out by herself/arrange something on her own initiative) and doesn't go out with my Dad because he is very, very difficult (quite old & hates everything, won't eat anywhere because he only likes my Mum's cooking, etc.). She confides in me a lot, which sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable (esp. when she complains about my Dad - I have told her to tone that down) but mostly just makes me feel desperately sad that she doesn't feel she has anyone else. And also furious with my grandparents for making her like this (they died when I was very little, I don't really remember them).

None of which actually helps this situation.

I think, given the context (and DSis knows all of the above, esp about my GPs), she was very rude. She says that she asked DM 'Do you want me to be honest?', DM said yes and so she went for it. I can't believe, as an adult, she thought that would be okay: a) don't ever ask that because the person always knows the answer will be negative and so will always say yes, b) of course my DM would say yes, particularly given her automatic low self esteem.

I also think she will deeply regret this should anything ever happen. She went through a similar phase with our paternal GF as a child and regrets, I think, not wanting to visit him.

Mum sends her cuttings from the newspaper every week (DSis request) and, if it's like the little cuttings she sends me, there's usually a note in there. This all comes a week after they visited DSis (their anniversary & DM's birthday as well) and DSis didn't feel she could say no but really didn't want them there. I nearly lost my temper with DSis over that one - she ended up in a situation where they were hurt (particularly given the dates) and she was annoyed because she was trying not to be rude.

Maybe emails are the answer? I don't know. I will keep thinking - keep the replies coming please, they are helping me collect my thoughts, thank you :)

Should just add - it was a massively busy week for DSis: she didn't physically have the time for them to be there, it wasn't that she was swanning off clubbing whilst they were stuck in a travelodge.

Their relationships is doomed to failure if your mum can't accept your Dsis' stance. Sorry.

Your DSis could make more of an effort but her resentment and chore she would feel would errode the relationship.

Your parents emotional health isn't your responsibility. It's a bit selfish not to want to make it so to some extent but you cannot change that fact. Your DM need to find a life that is not so reliant on her children and you need to stay the hell out of the middle. You can't repair this. It is between your Dsis and your DM and your interference will get you stuck in the middle listening to them both moan and taking the emotional weight of them both.

I think you should take a step back.

Your Dsis is an adult as is your DM. I personally would feel completely overwhelmed if my DM called me every other day and sent clippings once a week. We speak on the phone once a week see each other once a month and that is fine by me. Different people function on different levels of contact and I don't see how you can benefit the situation by acting as go between.

If either of them bring up the topic then beandip and move on to something else, to your DPs " Oh you know how Dsis is anyway what about that weather we have been having" and similar to your Dsis, besides its not up to you to decide what your Dsis will or won't regret, particularly as pushing her into more contact than she is comfortable with will probably lead to her being rude to them.

Is it fairly recent that your DSis has gone to university?

I ask because, from the perspective of a parent, my DS1 has just gone, and it's a really strange. I don't know how often I should expect contact from him or how often I should contact him!

My mum and I always, throughout university and when I left home, spoke very frequently on the phone - sometimes more than once a day. So it's hard, anyway, having a more distant relationship with anyone. DS1 is very quiet and introspective, and daily calls/chats would definitely not be his thing!

At the moment we probably speak (briefly, it has to be said) about once a week - usually prompted by me.

But if I did manage to catch him on the phone and he told me not to call so often, I would be desperately, desperately hurt. This is nothing to do with living my life through him, as I have more than enough going on in my life, but it is still a horrible rejection.

However, I wouldn't hesitate to tell DS1 this - and I think that this is what your DM must do. You can't do it, nor can your DF - it has to come from your mum.

It sounds like your DSis has never been told 'no' by anyone (actually she sounds deeply selfish), but now is the time for your mum to really take charge and stop this kind of behaviour.

Perhaps they could agree a regular time when she can call? Then they will both be happy.

I'm kinda with your sister on this one. And also, for you to stay out of the middle (as others have said). It's incredibly unhealthy for parents to rely on their children emotionally to the degree that it causes arguments. Why should your sister apologise if she doesn't feel sorry? The constant contact must be getting right on her nerves (it would mine). Your mum's low self-esteem is NOT you or your sister's problem.
The fact that they still visited when your sister had a busy week, and she had already told them - why did they go ffs? They might be a bit happier if they actually listened to what your sister was saying.

I can see I should stay out more than I intended - I asked DSis if I could call tomorrow when I didn't know what to say (I said the letter, but no apology for her opinion and DSis kept saying how guilty she felt, but there was nothing else I could think of to say) and will tell her so then.

Because DSis is in her fourth year but was on a placement last year and spoke to DM nearly every day (before that contact was more like once per week and DM had got used to it). DSis said it was no skin off her nose whilst on placement, i.e. she could humour DM, but now she finds it harder.

She did have huge problems as a child and has definitely been told 'no' but I think, although she deeply loves my parents, doesn't really have a concept of what her opinions can mean to them. Or, at least, not as much as me. That's not to say I don't state my opinions but I'm far more tactful: everyone who knows us remarks on it. Her tactlessness has become a bit of a running joke although in a professional capacity she is a valued employee and manages fine

Gay40 I'm didn't suggest she should apologise for having her opinion but I do think it was poorly expressed and she should apologise for that. She didn't tell my parents they couldn't go - that was the problem. All I got from her was how stressed she was and how much she didn't want them there but she didn't tell them beforehand. She then tried to curtail how much time she spent with them with less than a week to go - they hadn't seen her for months and were under the impression she had two full days to spend with them. I have had that conversation with them and that's why I'm not seeing them until Christmas (they wanted me to go home) and then they're visiting in February (they wanted to come earlier).

It's difficult, isn't it? My children were away at university - one is back now having finished her degree. I didn't want to get any of us into the 'duty call' that my ex in particular had with his parents, whereby he'd call every Sunday night or there was trouble. I also didn't want once a week phone calls.

I tend to call when I know they'll be free - with my son it's late at night, with my daughter it was when she was walking home from lectures. I didn't/don't call too often (in my opinion) but it was about twice a week. That would obviously be too often for your sister.

I try to go for the quite brief calls - if they want the call to go on, that's fine, but I always texted first. If they don't want to talk, they don't, believe me. That's the beauty (or not) of the mobile, that calls can be screened.

I remember my ex MIL complaining about her daughter not speaking to her very often and my dad telling her to hold fire and wait for her daughter to need to speak to her (for emotional, not practical reasons.) I think it was good advice. I don't mean your mum should ignore your sister, just cool it right down. Let your sister need to speak to her, to miss her. It would be very hard, I know that, but I think it would work.

Just one thing - I think if your sister doesn't want to speak much to her parents, she shouldn't accept or request any financial or other help, either. She can't have it both ways.

One of the hardest things to learn as an adult is to recognise that your experience of your childhood will always be different to that of your siblings. I noticed in your OP that you describe your sister as a 'nightmare' as a child and that has perhaps become the family script - and your sister knows it.

It's really difficult to step back and see your sister's childhood through her eyes, but I'd urge you to try so that you can better understand her responses now. She perhaps doesn't feel the loyalty and ties to your parents as much as you do - possibly with good reason, from her point of view.

It does sound as though your Mum shares inappropriate things with you and relies far too heavily on her children as her source of happiness and validation. Unless you want you and your sister to play the role of good guy/bad guy indefinitely, then it's really best to step back and let your parents and sister deal with eachother directly. You might find as you grow older too, that you yourself will tire of this role, because it is a thankless one and not always healthy for your own adult relationships.

Thank you. I think, without going too much into it Charbon that the good guy/bad guy thing has swapped about a bit. Certainly for a time she was the bad guy. Something my DM told me that I haven't told DSis is that DM used to leave the room during a temper tantrum, shut her bedroom door and sink to the floor crying because she was so desperate over my DSis' behaviour and felt like she couldn't do anything to make her behave (actually I really wish MN had been around as I think it would have made her feel better!). OTOH during my teenage years I was certainly far more trouble to my parents.

Possibly, because their good relationship with my sister has been much more recent than mine, it is possible they - whether subconsciously or not - place a higher value on her contact and so are more upset. I also think DSis' tactlessness can add to this. I think you are also correct that her ties may not be as strong - I have always confided a lot/over-shared (as is evident from posting on a public forum) so there is a bond created with my parents over this that DSis doesn't have.

Imperial You are right in thinking a weekly/set call isn't her thing: I also mentioned this and she said she would dread losing the spontaneity and would worry she would have nothing to say.

I think DSis doesn't know exactly what she wants. One of the reasons I'm a tad annoyed with my sister is that one of the first things I said was 'Don't pick up' but she feels she 'has to'. Now, I know that's not true because I'm forever leaving my phone in the other room and missing calls. I get back to my Mum when I can, which is usually the same day but has sometimes been a day later (having forgotten) and she has never made me feel guilty.

I think I will tell my sister that a card would be a good idea, but apart from that I can't get involved. I shall also suggest that she ask DM to text for a good time or just grow a backbone and not pick up.

I won't say anything further to my DM on this. I can't stop being her confidante - I love her too much to tell her I don't want to listen (apart from some stuff about my DF and, having lived at home as an adult, I know how difficult he can be - he's a lot older than her and beginning to get confused, which is horrible for them both, especially as he gets so cross about it: he's always been very very sharp :( )

I don't know how to build her confidence or self-esteem. My grandparents have done a total number on her and I live too far away. When I moved home after uni she was so excited and planned so many activities for us. I left to live with DP (and continue studying) after six months or so and that was when she began to have MH problems.

Gosh. Your poor poor sister.

You might want to search through relationships for the many many threads that go like this:

My mum won't leave me alone, she calls or texts every day, and dumps all her emotional problems on me. I had a crap childhood - could never do anything right in my parents' eyes. Everyone thinks my mum is the most wonderful person but I can't get over the way she treated me as a child. The whole family still act like I'm a hopeless case even now. Anyhow, I've been trying to get mum to back off, but hints weren't working and eventually I had to just tell her. Now she's doing the injured martyr act and the family are cross with me for daring to upset her, and demanding I apologise.

There are a lot of them!

Do you think perhaps your sis needs to break away and be a valued independent adult, but feels guilty about upsetting your mother by not being and doing everything she wants and expects? That would account for the mixed signals.

Is it possible that her upbringing has left her with emotional issues of her own, and she can't deal with your mum's as well? You say your dsis should apologise for the way she expressed her opinion. Perhaps she'd tried dropping hints and saying it nicely and it hadn't worked? Perhaps she's at the end of her rope? And you sound like you think she should apologise for having that opinion.

It's really really NOT a shit opinion to want your parents to contact you less than daily, or even less than once a week. An adult can have a perfectly normal, close and healthy relationship with another adult and still speak to them less than once a week. And if the parent in question has emotional problems and is expecting you to parent them, it's not shit at all to need to back off. It is completely not selfish for a young woman to not want to parent her mother. You are guilt-tripping your sister.

Has it occurred to you to suggest that your DM apologise for upsetting your sister? You seem to think the apologies only need to go one way, whereas from what you've said, your dm has plenty to apologise for.

I find his hugely hard tbh. My mother sounds similar to yours and must have contact every day, if I don't respond the texts and emails get more frequent.

The thing is though, I don't have much to say! I just get on with my day, and I do find it intrusive. The problem is that she doesn't have much of a life really, my sister works away and my dad potters doing her projects so her sole focus is me and dd.

She insists on being involved in every decision no matter how minor, and as a competent 30 yr old I would appreciate more space. I am slowly distancing myself.

Your sister has a right to feel how she does, this sort of thing is hugely oppressive and your mother has to take responsibility for her emotions. Your sister does sound tactless so perhaps she could learn to be more diplomatic.

Bertha I think either I haven't expressed myself well enough or you are projecting. My sister did not have a crap childhood (she has told me as much, regardless of whether I hold this opinion as an observer). She has definitely never been treated as a hopeless case: my parents have always verbally expressed how much they love us and how wanted we were (older parents). They are incredibly proud of what she has achieved, which has been a lot.

I agree that it's not 'shit' to want fewer phone calls but I think her way of expressing herself was tactless, given our family relationship (which is more than I can convey in one thread: how do you condense a quarter century of experiences and ties?).

Ninky I agree that it can look oppressive. I don't find it so, maybe my sister does.

DM doesn't increase the frequency of her calls/texts if we don't reply - she sends my sister fewer than me as DSis has expressed previously how busy she is. She only texts family/local news or things we might find interesting, e.g. posted your newspaper bits today, Aunty X sends her love, am at car boot with your Dad etc.

One thing that sticks out in your post and relating to something someone else also said is that your sister said she feels she cannot ignore the phone when your mum calls her but you don't get that because you often have to call your mother back later and it's not a problem.

This makes me think of my dh, sil and MIL. MIL and SIL have an unhealthily close relationship in some way but that is a whole other story.
Now MIL and SIL see each other most days and if SIL decides to change the routine any that is absolutely fine nothing is ever said but we see her once a week at the moment but for a while there is was far less frequently and if we are unavailable on the day she comes or they day she calls to say she is coming she will get huffy and uses emptional blackmail on dh to get her own way (if she speaks to me I am far firmer)
SIL cannot see any of this at all and thinks MIL is amazing and until very recently when some things kind of blew up could not and would not accept that MIL did any of these things.

It is entirely possible that your mum does even in subtle ways make your sister feel guilty for not answering the phone because they speak far more infrequenlty and that your mum doesn't do this to you or feel the need to do this to you because you are in far more regular contact and she doesn't see another day ticking away that you haven't spoken.

I think it sounds oppressive. It would drive me mad - once a week is far too much really for me. Even the trivia would annoy me - eg 'Am at a car boot'. So?? And as for emotional support - this to me would just be moaning. It is not for children to counsel parents. It would force me further away.

My mother invites herself to stay as well and it is really diffcult not to hurt her feelings. Maybe your sister has reached the end of her tether. How many times do we read on here 'No is a complete sentance' etc....

I have DCs and obviously I would be hurt if they said this to me but:

1. I would consider myself to have done a bad job. You reap what you sow. This is why it drives me mad when my mum does this to me.

1. I hope I would not want to contact them once a day - why would I want to??

You need to look at this from your sisters pov.

Well you say your sister is tactless, then say that she needs to grow a backbone and tell them they can't come and see her etc. Which is it

My mum used to ring me every day always at meal time,eventually I asked her to make it twice a week-I would ring her on Wednesday evening and she should ring me on Sunday.My df had died she was alone although she spoke to/saw her dsis every day.I am an only child.My mum did as I asked but I have blamed myself bitterly for my cruelty.My mum died in 1993 and not a day passes when I dont wish I could talk to her and apologise.I speak to my own dd about 3 times a week and see her twice.She is a better dd than I ever was.
Please encourage your dsis to apologise or better still to stat texting your mum at least every other day.