Not sure what advice to give my DSis re: DM :(

[RoseC]

I'd really appreciate some advice please as I am at a bit of a loss.

DSis is very independent and headstrong, always has been. She was a nightmare as a child and one of her worst traits was saying things without thinking about their consequences and then not really seeing a problem with 'telling the truth'. I love her dearly, we are very close and I let her faults wash over me in a way that I couldn't when we were growing up (much, I think, as she does with mine). She has, through dint of my DM's never-ending hard work, turned into a wonderful, loyal and great person to be with.

DM had a shit childhood with parents who hated each other and a mother who was emotional abusive. My DF is a wonderful man who came from a very loving and physically affectionate family - it's taken a long time but my DM is now very similar. It has taken a lot for her to become so emotionally open - even when I was little she saw some things as 'weaknesses' (or this was the impression I got anyway).

DM has had a rubbish year emotionally. She is stuck in a horrible job that (for various reasons I don't want to go into) she cannot leave. She doesn't have good self esteem and she had MH problems linked to this at the beginning of this year which resulted in her being signed off work. She also misses both of us dreadfully (I found out, from my Dad, that this contributed to her depression). We are both studying 300+ miles from home at opposite ends of the country and none of us can afford to visit outside Easter/Christmas etc.

I am very much a homebody - DP is the main reason I am here rather than living at home. I speak to both my parents every couple of days and my Mum sends me at least one text a day. DSis is much more independent and has a much harder time on her course than I do - her subject is more difficult and her university a better standard so she struggles to excel as she was used to at our bog-standard school. She also has a very active social life.

The problem is that she doesn't see the point in calling my parents more than once a fortnight. As we are very close at home, emotionally this is really hard for my parents, Mum especially. Dad is a bit more stoic and understands - I think Mum's issues get in the way: although she understands rationally, she has a hard time emotionally.

Unfortunately DSis told my Mum yesterday - after Mum asked outright - that she doesn't like Mum calling or texting every day or every other day (calling maybe one in three days, definitely one text a day - DM contacts her less than me because she knows DSis is a bit more independent). Mum is really, really hurt and DSis feels guilty for upsetting her but 'doesn't see the point in lying or taking it back - because that would be a lie'.

I don't know what to do. Mum has taken it as a rejection and I know, rationally, that she should step back but given her MH problems I don't think she actually can and I think telling her, however gently, to do so could really inflict emotional hurt on her. DSis acknowledges that it's a shit opinion to have that you want your parents to leave you alone - she's just said that if she had children in the future and they'd said that she would be devastated (this gave me the idea to ask on MN).

DSis wants my advice but, apart from suggesting she sends a card apologising for upsetting - but not for her opinion - I don't know what to advise. We have arranged that I will always text her instead of calling to make it easier on DSis (DSis will usually bluntly tell me to bog off if she's busy but I'm her big sister and I can take it - I know she doesn't mean anything by it). Don't know what to do about DM.

Does anyone have any advice please? I know this is long. It's all tangled up in my head and I don't know what to say to either of them - I don't want to tell DM that DSis didn't mean it because a) I know she did and she's been sounding off at me about it for ages and b) DSis will not take kindly, understandably, to me lying on her behalf.

That is what my mum does, trivia. But expects some sort of response...what do I say to it? It is oppressive.

And tbh, as an adult I don't need to be intimately involved in every aspect of my mother's life and vice versa...which is what this sort of text requires.

I'm trying hard to think of a nice way to put this but the family dynamic seems very unhealthy to me.

Your dad is quite happy to pass on responsibility of your mum's depression to you and your sister (telling you that moving away contributed to the depression) while happily absolving himself of all responsibility. He knows your mum can't/won't go out alone yet still refuses to make much of an effort to go out with her.

Your mum is using her children as an emotional crutch, and getting upset when your sister tells her that it is all too much for her.

You have turned into something of a mother figure for the whole family, the one everyone turns to when there is a problem.

I can't help feeling a little sorry for your sister. She's tried to keep people happy. She was in daily contact when she was able to be (on her placement year) and had your parents to stay even when it was hugely inconvenient for her. She isn't even given much credit for turning out to be a decent adult - you've awarded that honour solely to your mum.

To be honest I think you could all do with having a little more space from each other. It's nice that you are so loyal to your mum but I think it's getting to be unhealthy.

Honestly I think your mum needs to respect your sisters wishes. When I went away to uni I would probably only call my parents once a fortnight if that. (no one had a mobile phone then) They would usually only ring me if there was important news. If I went away for a weekend I would often not tell them I was away. This may sound cruel but I needed that independence. Now with DC of my own I live fairly close to my parents and it would be unusual not to speak to them once a week.

How your sister was as a child is really not relevant to today. Children are at best usually a handful and certainly can be little nightmares at times! It's a parents job to deal with the tantrums and the sulks as well as to enjoy the smiles and achievements. If your mum struggled to cope with the tantrums this is not your sisters fault. Not that I'm criticising your mum for wanting to cry. When my eldest was younger he could be a terror and I got very upset about it at times. But I would hate for him to ever feel any guilt about it now. He's 10 and there's no secret about it with him - in fact we now laugh about what a little terror he was back then! And i can genuinly look back on those days with affection!

I hope your mum can get help for her problems. It sounds like her issues may go back to her own childhood and that it is this that makes her want your and your sisters attention. But the danger is that this could further push your sister away. She needs her independence without feeling her mum is breathing down her neck the whole time. If your sister has the chance to get accustomed to having her own space then there will probably come time when she will want to regularly call your mum 'just to chat'.

It doesn't surprise me that the good guy/bad guy role has interchanged over the years between you and your sister, but it is an extremely unhealthy dynamic that is typical of parents who operate a divide and rule system with their children. It also means that you and your sister are in constant (possibly subconscious) competition to be the good guy. Your sister's experiences at university might have taught her that this is a game that's not worth playing anymore - and if so, she is wise beyond her years.

It is also totally wrong that your sister's childish tantrums and their effect on your mother are being recalled this long after the event. Most parents on here can remember similar feelings about at least one child, but we would no more hold it against them and tell our other adult children about how terrible their brother/sister was in infanthood, than fly to the moon. It is a very belittling thing to do to your sister. If these things were said in her presence it would be bad enough, but she could at least fight back and point out how ridiculous it was. The fact that your mother is telling you about it is much more manipulative.

I'm not saying your Mum hasn't been damaged by her childhood, or that she doesn't need help now, especially if she is depressed and your Dad is showing signs of dementia, but that support needs to be shared by friends her own age, as well as health professionals.

Just out of interest, is your Mum's mantra that she is determined to be the best mother ever - and prides herself in this role above all others?

I think Bertha and Ladybeckenham have the answers you are looking for.

Why can't you and your mother leave your sister alone? If she decides not to contact you for lets say 6 months, what has it got to do with anyone else?

None of this makes any sense to me at all. I come from a big family and there is never any pressure to call or not call. We call when the time is right for us, we don't call if our lives are busy for a while. You call when you feel 'it's about time'. And even if none of us have called for ages, what we get when we do call is a resounding welcoming hello, no guilt, no worries. And if she calls me when I'm in the middle of something I tell her I'll call her back and it's fine. Sometimes I forget to call back, that's fine too. Shit happens, she knows this, we know it.

Your mother sounds as though she has brought you both up to read too much into small things - hence you loading your sister's calls/notcalls with significance. None of it matters. You call when you need to call.

What matters is that your mother stops acting like the child and that you get on with your own life, enjoy it and find something better to do with it than worry about someone who is old enough to know better.

Sorry if I sound insensitive, I'm really not, but I think you have been drawn into something you shouldn't need to be drawn into. I'm confused about what you say about your father too - you say that he's helped your mother become emotionally open, but you also say that his tone of voice is 'sharp' - is there another problem that we don't know about?

Realhousewife, I'm one of a big family, too, and it's a VERY different business. There are always a few people in touch with the parents and the parents just don't have the time to worry about every single child.

Thank you all for your replies. Firstly I just want to say realhousewife that by 'sharp' I meant intellectually sharp.

Having thought long and hard about this I think the underlying reason for the texts is, 'Oh DSis would like that, I'll let her know'. I think DM is having a hard time with us coming home and then leaving again and yes, she does guilt trip. I don't find it half as hard to find a nice way of saying no as DSis does. I don't know why that is, but then I am not party to their conversations as they happen. Case in point: I was generally grumbling about my lack of money (not with intend, just offloading) to her last week and she texted me last night to say she'd sent me some money (which she can ill-afford). She called me ten minutes ago about something else and I was able to refuse the money and tell her I was putting it back in her account without her guilt-tripping or me feeling guilty. I think my DSis maybe can't gently rail-road her as I can, gets frustrated and then says tactless things (frustration is not her fault, I do think she knows better at this point than to be tactless, OTOH you are all right that my DM should tone it down).

DSis asked me to call this evening with suggestions. I will suggest that she asks DM to text or email instead and that, due to pressures of work (this is a reason that will get DM to back off in the short-term, getting her used to less contact in the long term without an unholy row between them), DSis will initiate phone contact. I will then say that I must try not to get involved any further. It's really hard as I think DSis was trying to get me to back her up yesterday but I didn't see the problem as I have no issue with the frequency of calls/texts.

I won't change what I do: even if it is unhealthy in the long-term I love my parents and miss them very much. DSis does as well but her way of showing it is different - we are two very different characters. Certainly as far as my DF is concerned I am aware - particularly as DP's father of the same age is recently deceased - that my time with him is limited.

You have helped me see things the way my DSis is perhaps feeling. I will approach this with caution and try not to get too involved. I don't know whether it is a good idea to approach my DM (given that I am better able to say things and make her listen) or whether that would be too much interference. I will ask my DSis what she wants me to do and then back off.

Your father is the problem here, your mum is trying to force her children to fill a gap that should be filled by your father. If your mum wants to go out, why is it ok for your dad to say hers is the only cooking he likes? Why are you nagging your sister to be the dutiful daughter, but not nagging your father to man up, stop being so selfish and look after his wife?

It's not normal to call your parents every day. Most people don't. At uni I'd talk to my parents probably once a week, that was about the same for my friends.

You might be still closely attached to your parents, but your DSis isn't. Let her form the adult relationship with her parents that she wants, stop trying to limit hers and your lives to fill a need in your parents.

Oh, and are you always the one that needs to fix things? Your sister's relationship with your mother is between then. Keep out of it, meddling is not going to help.

I'm almost speechless. Your sister has my every sympathy for the reasons that many posters above have so eloquently set out.

Yous sister is an adult she is entitled to progress (or not) her relationship with your DM as she sees fit and you seriously need to back off and leave her to do this.