ds mental health and H behaviour (Sorry long)

[TravellerForEver]

My issue is a bit of a mix between a relationship problem and some parenting issues. But I though all those lovely ladies from MN could help me getting a better picture and reassure me I am not making things up.

We have a big problem with ds with low self-esteem and a possible self-harming.
A few days ago, ds just 'lost' it for a better word. Screaming, crying, kicking furniture, pulling his (very liked) soft toys into bits and shouting 'I am stupid, I am the most stupid person in the world'.
He was also bitting his hand and knee, enough to have some strong teeth marks but not enough to draw blood iyswim.
In my eyes, ds looked full of anger, anger against himself because he had been sent to his room for repeately misbehaving at the table. Also full of anxiety and unable to see that making one mistake doesn't amke a 'bad person' or a 'stupid person'.
ds is just 8yo.

On the other side, there is H who seems unable to deal with the dcs wo putting them down, especially ds.
We are were at breaking point a few months ago and I told him that putting the dcs down is a deal braker for me and that, if things didn't improve, we would get divorced.
To be fair, H is trying or I think he is.

BUT, when we talked about ds and what we could do I had the same old answers 'I didn't think it was such an issue' & 'I don't know what we can do about it'. Actually he couldn't even tell me what he would propose to do to start finding solutions and help. I would have though googling and finding a few books about it was a straight forward answer.
I felt I was going back a few years ago when I ended up dealing wih the dc's problems on my own and quite often swimming against the tide or rather against him.
He did realize it meant that our parenting wasn't OK, which he interpreted as 'I am a crap parent' (Well tbh, yes he has been but I probaky have been too, not the least because of all the stress I was/am under).
I also said that the way our relationship has been had a profound impact on the dcs and that we needed to think about it carefully. Again no answer on that front.

A few issues here for me:
1- I do believe that ds reactions were completely over the top and that the bitting is very close (or should be treated?) as self-harming. I am very concerned that if he acts like this now at 8yo, this will transform itself in full self-harm behaviour as a teenager. So for me, this is ds mental health that is at stake.
2- I am totally unconvinced by H reaction. It made me feel like he knows there are some big issues but would much prefer avoiding tackling them because this is a very unconfortable place to be in. Think about the ostrich putting their head in the sand. Also I would have though that as a caring parent, he would have wanted to jump & do something etc.. but looked very passive to me.

So could you tell me, am I over reacting when I am talking about self-harm and ds mental health?
Am I wrong to thinking that H isn't right now in a place where he can make the changes he has to make?

Not much to say, but am noticing a similarity between your H and DS - each quickly generalises to a negative statement about their identity - 'I am the most stupidest person in the world'; 'I am a crap parent.'

In interacting with your DS, it's important that you make it clear that it is his behaviour you disapprove of, and that he is not bad or stupid. And not say things like 'you can't even sit still at the table' or whatever, which tells him he is bound to fail.

Your son's self-hatred is a direct product of his father's put-downs. Children rely on their parents completely for developing their self-image, and developing their view of the world as a safe (or in this case, unsafe) place. Children depend on their parents, for their very life. They cannot question their parents - parents are godlike, they must be. So when your H puts your son down, this is how your son makes sense of it: "Dad cannot be wrong, therefore I must be a horrible, unlovable and unworthy person to deserve this treatment." The fit you witnessed is this thought process in action.

Your H is incapable of "jumping up and doing something" about his son's distress, because that would imply that he has done something wrong, and he just can't accept that. His own self-esteem was almost certainly shaped in the exact same way that your son's is being shaped now.

IME, your H cannot change: his personality is fixed. He is so wounded and disordered that he needs to protect his own ego before all else - even his child's wellbeing.

The only thing you can usefully do is:

• get your child away from his father's toxic influence
• be a loving - but still firm and consistent - parent to your son, so that he understands that 1) he is lovable, and 2) in this world, there are consequences to our behaviour.

Yep I have known that a while. I am in no way a perefect parent but believe me being careful of what I say, how I say it etc... has been in the front of my mind for a very very long time.
This made a hude difference to me and the way I relate to my dcs.

But I had 8 years to change my ways. H needs to change now. I am worried I am just asking to much from himm.

You're not over-reacting. That is very distressing (and distressed) behaviour in an adult. For an 8yo to be so full of self-hatred is plain heartbreaking.

Yes, something is wrong.

I agree with you about DH. The prospect of coping alone must be frightening, but it looks as if you're going through a repeating cycle. If he's true to form, H won't take a benevolent interest in the DC until you tell him it's over ... and even then, will make half-hearted efforts at best.

Forgive me if I've got this wrong; if I haven't, then H's attitude is probably making DS feel even worse.

How does DS explain his appalling opinion of himself?

x post

Sorry, I came across as judgemental. Puppy's reply is better - it does look as if H is replaying his own childhood, which doubtless made him impossibly black-and-white and aggressively defensive. That sort of thing takes aeons to get over, if he's even willing to admit the problem (unlikely).

Very sad all round, but it still leaves you with a stark choice between allowing your son to become a damaged adult as well, or removing the damaging influence :(

Give your H an ultimatum: he either sorts out his own behaviour or he's dumped. You have to prioritise your DS over this man - yes, probably H was bullied as a child and has responded to it by becoming a bully himself but he's an adult and he can choose to sort himself out.

FWIW I don't see anything judgmental in your post, garlic.

garlic you weren't judgemental.
ds is such a lovely child, caring helpful. I don't know anyone who isn't giving praise about who he is. To the outside world, he is look full of self confidence, succeding in almost anything he setting himslef to, making friends etc...
But the other side of the coin is this very low self esteem. I think in some ways it's not helped by the fact he is very clever so he will pick up on any little sign, face expression, tone of the voice and take in the 'real' meaning.

He is so wounded and disordered that he needs to protect his own ego before all else - even his child's wellbeing
That's exactely that. I have known deep down that he does love me and his dcs but he doesn't seem to be able to put anybody else before himself. I wouldn't call that selfishness. I think he can't.

What a mess. I should have been to protect my son.....

So many people have been telling me the same thing, in different ways but I couldn't hear them.
I was looking at my child as he is in the outside world and kidding myself that it wasn't as bad as that.

Scared

It's ok to be scared; this is frightening stuff.

What are you going to do?

Thanks for the reassurance, both.

Traveller, your H is probably "lovely" and confident on the outside as well. You can't predict the childhood damage that will show up when a person has their own children. They often pick just one child to abuse, as well, usually the one that has the most similarities to them - same sex, family position, colouring or character.

Tragically, it is NOT DS's fault but he will inevitably perceive it so. DH would probably find it too painful to even acknowledge this problem - but, unless you take action, the pain inflicted on DH as a child will be passed through one more generation ... and another ... Can you imagine, 20 years hence, watching DS make his own child suffer? :( :(

I feel for you.

It's hard to see when you're in the thick of it. Now you know you need to act and I'm sure you will. Your ds will probably benefit from camhs/counselling. Being treated this way is emotional abuse and causes damage to adults and children which is hard to unpick.

And regarding your husband he has it in his power to sort himself out, as does any adult behaving abusively

I need to find a way to end this relationship.

But I want to do that wo hurting H anymore than necessary. He doesn't deserve it just as much as ds doesn't deserve the life he has had up to now.

First and foremost I think you need to speak to your GP and request that they refer your ds (and you and your dh) to CAMHS (children and adolescent mental health services) to discuss his behaviour and anxieties.

I appreciate that you care about your H but by refusing to address and change his own behaviour, he will have brought any pain he experiences on himself. You could perhaps offer him the chance of a reconciliation if he makes serious and sustained effort to sort himself out.

Your H is an adult. His emotions are his to handle, not yours.

Actually H doesn't appear lovely and confident from the outside either. There was probably lost of warning signs but it is easy to say so afterwards.

It's true about picking up on one child.... H isn't nearly as bad with ds2.

Camhs. Do I read it well that you think this behaviour is serious enough to warrant referral to cahms?

Absolutely.

Would say your DH, or even your family, need some counselling.
I was brought up in quite a negative environment, my siblings & I all have low self esteem, but I work really hard to try not to perpetuate this.

Fortunately my DP was brought up in a much more positive environment & hopefully this balances me out a bit too.

I found Steve Biddulphs book 'The secret of happy children' fantastic.

Your DH needs to change his attitude.

OK first reaction was :
SGB, no the hurt he experiences is the direct result of the way he has been brought up.

But yes you all are right. This is his responsability not mine.

I just wished I had a magic wand to make it all alright.

You don't have a magic wand, but you have the power of your own choices and your own actions.

...and by that rather fluffy sentence, I meant: but you can make it better.

'Camhs. Do I read it well that you think this behaviour is serious enough to warrant referral to cahms?'

Err Yes.You have a child who is self harming at the age of 8.You mentioned his mental health several times.If you are worried about that,you should seek help and advice.

and after his father's behaviour towards him,maybe your ds needs his own chance to speak to someone outside of the family unit.