Been a complete mug for money, cannot understand it.

[Saturdaysgirl]

Hi,

I posted a couple of weeks back about my long distance relationshi[p with Mr california and how he was out of work STILL and I was sick of sending over money to pay his rent. We were engaged and I was looking at emigrating, leaving my flat in this climate. I was continually worried about the whole scene.

Well it has escalated.

When I wrote that thread, I did indeed break up with him. I may be a fool sometimes, but it never lasts too long, and I told him not to change, but I was going to leave. The issues were him drinking too much (binging every two or three weeks, sometimes longer breaks in between but still drinking all day the next day and then maybe the next and the next day after that as well!!!!) - him not having been in stable work cos he couldn't afford to insure his car and therefore would not drive it. Exceot to drink drive down to the store for more JD.

When I went there for visit no 4 in Sept, he had passed out the one time we had a few drinks (I was thinking, I've got to leave, this is awful, but HOW am I going to do it without hurting him???) - anyway I went on his laptop and his facebook was open and I looked (great adult relationship behaviour which I am ashamed of) and found lots of messages from old girlfriends of his.

Stuff like (from one girl) 'You broke my heart blah blah' - why is he having recent convos like that with girls???

One from him - 'Why aren't we fucking??? Its the one thing we were good at!'

I thought, well that's obviously it. I told him in the morning and he said it was all innocent and that he says inappropriate things when he is drunk.

You are all going 'Yeah yeah' right now.

In my heart I was terribly worried. How would I bring the whole scene off - for both of us? How would I sort my flat to rent it safely, go there, wjhat if his income was always sporadic??? I mean srsly? I certainly didn't want to be paying for it all!

And then emails like that??? Innocent or not, I am not having that sort of conversation with ANY other men. If it was innocent, the one thing he couldn't explain was the fact that he was dealing inappropriately with other women.

Anyway so I came home grave in my heart, but carried on.

One day I saw ANOTHER comment on facebook!! This time it was regarding a photo - 'Oh you're so beautiful, kinda missing my ex-girlfriend right now....' (That girl was his ex.) I negged him to set me free. He told me he was cheering her up, she is gay and split with her girlfriend, I am mean for not
wanting him to cheer her up!!!

Again, innocent or not, I don't want to be with a man who behaves like that. It had to end.

Then that breakup took place. It was so sad! We had been so close, I had committed to marrying him, I liked my new surname - all that. I broke up with him on the Saturday and facebooked that gay woman asking if she'd keep an eye on him cos I thought he might drink too much and I worried about him having a heart attack cos he got chest pains - I mean srsly, give up the drink fool!!!

I didn't hear from her until Monday night.

Foolishly, I had got back with him in the interim week!! He had emailed me such a sweet message saying that he was still there, not going anywhere, he was quietly going to carry on with the shit job he is doing and get things together and somehow we'd find a way. I was happy on one hand but the dreadful worries also come along with that.

BUT he drank all weekend again!!!! I hate it! I woke up early on Monday yet a bloody gain, worrying about his suitability. I then told him that. It hung in the balance. I dreaded breaking up with him AGAIN - not to hurt him you see!!!

When I got home, that woman had responded to me - asking me what dates we were together and had we ever made it official!

On the one hand, that let me off the hook completely - fresh start, don't have to worry about him at all, the END.

On the other - has he mugged me off for 2 years???????????

I actually rang her up for a chat. This is what she said -
a) He has always been crashing at people's places, borrowing money, in and out of work.
b) He had her up the wall by her throat when they were 21.
c) He cheated on her.
d) They went to a gig together in May which he was contacting me all the way around - 'Hi I'm going love you!! Hi I'm back, had a great time, here are the photos and youtube vids.' I was lying on nmy sofa thinking, aww bless he's had a nice time, good for him!!!
e) On Oct 16 he sent her a private msg which she read to me saying she had the most beautiful face he had ever seen and something about can she come round as he wants to kiss her.

She then let me be her friend on facebook so I could see her video of the gig. I was too drunk by the time I watched it to really see him, and didn't care by that time anyway. But I did see lots of long comment threads between them, very intimate, she chased him sometimes, but he was saying stuff which I consider to be inappropriate.

I wrote to her thanking her for letting me see all that, but saying I had also seen the way she had been speaking to my boyfriend and never wanted to hear from he or her ever again, and then I blocked her.

I have told him he is a waster and a loser and that I hated America anyway and felt lucky to have escaped him and not lost my little flat and only watsed 2 years on him.

But now it is sinking in and I don't know what to think. I believed in the lovely long emails he wrote to me. He used to talk to me all the time. Morning noon and night. I cannot reconcile it with having secrets. I had no secrets from him. I haven't been paying his rent since Aug and have sent nothing for some weeks now, and he was working and I honestly believed in him, that he could work it all out and we would be fine.

But I cannot reconcile the other women and the money I have leant him and the lies. Have I been a complete fool? I cannot believe it.

I agree to an extent but from reading stuff on these pages it is unbelievable what some women put up with.

"he has had 2 affairs but I love him"
"he wanks over an Internet slag but I love him"
"he beats the shit out of me but I love him"
"he hates my kids but I love him"

Love seems to take sense out of some people!

yes it does, MV

I believe "romantic love" to be responsible for much of the evil in the world

I am serious, btw

Saturdsaysgirl, I have to say, if you don't like the things AnyFucker says on mumsnet, you are seriously in need of a reality check - she is always spot on!

op some BAD reasons to get married
because you like 'your new surname' wtf
because he went to Oxbridge blah blah
burly family man???
I think you need to like yourself a bit better

Agree with AF re romantic love. And also infatuation - it makes you mad, from a brain chemistry point of view, it has evolved to get women up the duff when they aren't thinking straight!

"I believe "romantic love" to be responsible for much of the evil in the world"

Oh yes.

I do so wish someone had explained this to me 35 years ago.

My life would have been VERY different.

Self-help books - meh.

They are for people who CAN'T help themselves. They don't help anyone.

My SIL is addicted to them She is in her mid-40s, lives at home with her parents, rarely leaves her bedroom except to go to work or the doctor, has no friends and has never had a relationship.

OP, you've had some really sensible advice here. You come across as frankly, quite terrifyingly vulnerable and you need to find a good therapist to help you learn how to protect yourself.

So many girls are TRAINED (by parents and schools) to be victims "nice" - naive, trusting, generous and non-confrontational creatures. I was one of them. It's taken me 50 years to butch up.

oooh, can I carry on now I have some listeners ?

I don't believe in "romantic love"

I believe in earned trust and respect

I don't believe in "soulmates" or "the one" or else I am fucked if my "soulmate" lives in Timbuktoo ...

I believe there are many people who can be compatible with me, and I with them

I think that although I am at heart a monogamist nothing is for life, and if someone unilaterally moves the goalposts, I reserve the right to withdraw my trust and respect without comeback or succumbing to societal pressure to be the one to "keep trying" against all the odds

I thank you

I could write loads on this thread...loads. I could offer you advice OP, point out where you have been blind sighted and used....all of it.

I won't though, because you're going to go off and do this aaalllll over again. And again. And again.

Take care OP...and I mean that. Take. Care. x

Oh LP, what utter trash.

Self help books CAN really help people. Lundy Bancroft is an eyeopener for one.

To some, it's a calm, quiet voice, explaining things we couldn't see for ourselves. When you've been utterly isolated and brain washed, having a different point of view can help make sense.

The life your SIL is leading is not caused by self help books, there is other stuff going on there.

Hissy, there are useful self-help books

and there are um others

some are more helpful than others

do we think OP has been reading "useful" ones ?

Don't think there's been much reading of helpful ones no. But there never is unless you realise you are not quite there on something.

Apologies, I probably should have qualified that statement. Yes, there ARE some useful books out there. It's just very difficult for the average Joanna to identify them. Far too many are actively damaging IMO.

TBH, I feel a bit the same about counselling. Hate the way it's presented as a universal panacea on MN, a sort of instant band-aid for the psyche. Some of the most controlling and personality-disordered individuals I've ever encountered (socially, not professionally, thank the Godess) have been so-called "counsellors".

"Please, go get yourself some reputable, clinical evidence based therapy."

Absolutely.

OK, I was going to sit on my hands, but I won't.

Some here seriously need to give the girl a break.

FFS, some of the shit I have been guilty of is now, looking back, abso-bloody-lutely idiotic.

But shouting 'You're a fucking Mug' at me is hardly going to have helped now is it?

Self-esteem issues are a lot to do with this situation, by saying You'll do this again and again is writing her off. Don't we deserve, all of us, the chance to fuck up and then take some time to contemplate and realise that we've done so?

To get OP to see sense/reality/hope, we all need to support, not pick apart.

She's alive, she's healthy, she's single and she is not saddled with his kids and therefore HIM for the rest of her life. I can't say all of that about my life myself...

This bloke conned her, not only her, but others that WERE there in the same time zone, that were in his RL environment. This guy has been scamming for a life time, he's good at what he does!

Does that make OP idiotic for falling for lines that MANY others too have fallen for?

"when you know better, you do better"

OP knows the score now, she needs to lick her wounds and reflect for a while and then she can start to do better.

OP asked is she was being a mug to be fair.

She also asked all this two weeks ago, and was told then that she was being led up the garden path.... she wouldnt have it though.

I fully expect the next installment in a few weeks.... because I really think the op will fall for his next load of bullshit unfortunately.

And I am sure there are some self help books.. but the vast majority are just a money spinner for any old Gillian McKeith type of person who is savvy enough to know that there will be some fool happy to part with their money for an instant fix.

In my experience of these books, from people who I know that have the type of personality to believe anything can be cured if you read the right manual, it is very easy to convince yourself of anything if you have that sort of character. It takes a real living breathing person to talk sense into you.

Hissy, I agree. I wish more people on MN would "walk a mile in someone's shoes" before hoisting up their judgy-pants.

OP, don't beat yourself up. Not so many years ago, I too had the wool pulled over my eyes by someone who lied to me about who they were, about the life they were leading, who took money off me under false pretences, who was seeing other women behind my back, who messed very badly with my head and my life. I was very vulnerable at the time, but unlike you, I was also a parent and solely responsible for a very young child.

I was a bit older than you too . Wish I'd had Mumsnet back then.

Some of the comments here might seem a bit harsh, but people are posting here because they are concerned about you. It's important to move on from bad siuations, but even more important not to repeat the same mistakes. Learn how to keep yourself safe.

I have read some good self-help books. I know they were good because I acted on their advice and it helped. Just reading them makes you think you have done something when you haven't really.

OP I wish you well. At 36 your future is still full of possibilities. It takes some people a long time to look back at their life and begin to understand themself. I know because I am one of them.

Re:

...my dp falls within a bellcurve

I've made so many mistakes in my life (not just about relationships), I would hesitate to judge someone else. It's so easy to see mistakes from the outside. I think lust and the misguided desire for "romantic love" have contributed to some poor choices and have led me to hang on to some relationships I would have been wiser to let go of. It was very easy to be wise after they were over and frighteningly easy to persuade myself that they were a good idea at the time.

I think you sound hurt, OP, which is not surprising. But you could learn some valuable things from a horrible experience.

Hissy well said.

It is easy to have a very intense on line relationship, it can create a feeling of intimacy that may or may not bear up in RL. If anyone had told me this before I had my own experience, I would not have believed it. Luckily my story was different, but how would I have known?

Yes the OP has been taken in and to some of you this looks even more foolish because it was LD. But the very nature of an online relationship makes it more, not less likely that someone who is vulnerable could fall pray.

Squeaky, to be fair and with respect.. if a depressive said, 'Am I a miserable old bag?' you'd surely not say YES, would you?

Yes the things she has done (with retrospect) were foolish, but what if he HAD have been genuine.. it does happen. Not often, but it does sometimes...

I know happy married couples that got together through international dating sites and they are as happy as Lorenzo!

I don't think she'll be back here for a while. If that is the case it's down to the shouting at her IMHO, she needs some there there, not some take that!

Anyway, fingers crossed she'll be OK and that she'll learn from this.

As with most therapies, even the best self-help books and advice can only help if the person needs, wants and is motivated to change. I'm concerned that OP isn't at that point, she stills wants to believe she wasn't duped and indulge in this fantasy life. It would never have got as far as him marrying her. She was prepared to give up almost everything on a whim but what was he really offering in return? Who is to say he hasn't done this before , since and maybe even during the "relationship" ? He may ahve more than oen persona on FB and elsewhere. Frankly Saturdaysgirl I think you've had a lucky escape and should make this a turning point, but being so defensive indicates you probably won't.

Hi all, good morning.

Well I took everything people said on board. I have tp say tho that I didn't feel understood really. I got the impression people thought I had fallen for one of those 'I'mn from Nigeria, my sister il dying, can I have some money?' sorts of things. You asked how I believed half of what he said, did I meet his friends, how do I know it was his house etc? Yes I did know his friends! I used to stay with him for two week periods! I spoke to them on skype and facebook. It was like having a new group of mates in California. I went with him to hospital for one of his kidney appointments. Another time, they gave him a disc after doing loads of scans and we were on the phone and he said 'I wonder if I can read this disc?' and stuck it in his laptop and yes he could read it and he sent me a copy and we read it thro together on the phone. I know he was relieved when he saw the bit about no damage to other organs after the amount he had put away. And yes the gay girl spoke to me a lot about her girlfriend that had also cheated om her the other week so he had not been lying about either her sexuality or the end of her relationship. So I think you all think I am much more of a mug than I am.

Anyway the upshot is, I have to stop going on the internet. I had this relationship all on the phone and the internet.

Re the self help stuff, I got good ones don't worry. But the fundamental message within the feminist books had to do with listening to yourself and I STILL don't do that very well.

I don't think I am that vulnerable. I may have lost just under two years lining for this fella, but I didn't go there, I didn't marry him, I don't have any kids, I am stable and I work and have long term girlfriends and surprisingly when we would go thro difficulties about precisely this sort of thing - what the hell am I thinking????? I would say, this is madness!!! - only one or two hard hearted ones would advise me to leave! I was surprised by that. I ran the whole truth by about 4 close girlfriends. And my work colleague who is a very sensible older woman was with me through all of this. In fact it was only because she believed in us that I kept it on a lot of the time.

Another thing I think is - and I don't expect many people here to understand this, going by the sorts of things people like AF write - is love ever a waste? I had a nice time. I felt loved by him. He was always there at the end of the phone. He wanted to know when I got in. He was never ever funny about me going out, crashing, going to gigs and festivals and so on. I thought this was a really good sign.

Anyway that could be complete crap cos I do also think, I don't want to marry the wrong man. I want a good love story and life story. I don't want to be unhappy. I also don't want to be helping other people all my life. What's in that for me? 'Oh you gave him love, that's always nice'. Yeah yeah.

So as time rolls on I feel more relieved. I feel better. It was so stressful, waiting for him to get work. Now I don't have to worry about it.

Thanks again for the advice and I will go through it again and take note of what jumps out at me.

To anyfucker tho before I go - you strike me as being sick of giving advice to people like me, who are at the beginning of some issue in life. You say things like 'I would say XYZ, but I won't bother wasting my time on you.' I don't know why you bother coming on these sorts of threads in that case. There's a whole stream of us coming through here, with our basic issues in one way or another. The thing is, I wonder if you might ever be one of us, and in which case I hope people are more understanding than you are. I also think you miss watching part of humanity unfolding before your eyes, something you should be grateful to be allowed to witness. But I don't suppose you understand concepts like that and will just take the piss out of me! I don't mind, I don't have much respect for your understanding of life based on the things you say.

I'm heartened by your post SG, you don't sound too down today! good for you.

Can I just highlight one thing you said?

I had a nice time. I felt loved by him. He was always there at the end of the phone. He wanted to know when I got in. He was never ever funny about me going out, crashing, going to gigs and festivals and so on. I thought this was a really good sign.

You are right, all of the above is a good sign. BUT, the constant asking for money is not. The fact that you have only physically met him 4 times and only for 2 week periods... you can't possibly know a person well enough to give up YOUR life for him.

Why would he not have come over to YOU?, you work, you have a house etc etc... If love was real, it can happen in Los Angeles or in Loughborough. He's not working, he couldn't afford to live, but you were paying for him to exist, and scary sums too. He got you hook line and sinker, and I wonder how many others he may be doing this with, it's a good income if you can con more than one woman at a time. For the real smoke and mirrors merchants, arranging a 2-week stay somewhere is a doddle, you may have been visiting him in his home, you may not... You may never know the full truth.

I agree some posters on here were a little harsh and dismissive of you, and you seem to have singled out AF.

AF may be many things, but tired of helping is not likely to be one of them. If anything her frustration will have come from seeing a man treat a woman like this. She may nip sometimes, but her heart is in the right place. Don't fall into the trap of confusing a nickname with a personality.

You are entitled to your opinion, SG

This is your thread, after all

Whether you believe it or not, I wish you well.