WWYD? Move ds away from abusive ex? Or put up and shut up, indefinitely?

[Tamoo]

I apologise in advance for this being long and convoluted. I have posted before under other names, piecemeal, some of you may recognise me. I'm indecisive and probably quite cowardly so am probably repeating myself.

I'm on the verge of a breakdown wrt my ex and our acrimonious relationship. Background: we split due to me being pg (he didn't want it), I moved away, came back, we attempted to be friends, ds is now 8yrs.

During those 8yrs his father has been jealous and controlling, intimidating, and verbally abusive. I have only had 2 (disastrous) relationships in all that time. Ex would stop speaking to me if he thought I was seeing anyone. He would also want us to spend 'family' time together and would be affronted and moody if I didn't want to, or if I didn't want to discuss events in my life. (NB ex is in a long-term stable relationship and I have no problem with this, am happy for him.)

A year ago I had enough of all this and cut all but essential contact re handover of ds. Ex had got increasingly moody and unpredictable, he was paranoid I was seeing someone and not telling him, he stopped me doing a sport I had taken up (my first hobby in years) in case I met anyone there ('stopped me' by withdrawing his mutually agreed babysitting role). He also threatened me with calling SS because I 'need a shrink'.

He would also get verbally abusive (still does) if he thinks I am stopping him seeing ds. I never have. In fact I facilitate them seeing each other by doing drop offs and pick ups (ex doesn't drive). The problem is he will text (in aggressive, nasty language) wanting to see ds 'now' and that isn't always convenient. He will also phone up ds and attempt to make arrangements with him. I did try explaining that you might do that with a 12 or 15 yr old, but not with a 6/7/8yr old - you have to go via their mum, like it or not.

Obv this has been hard on ds as he had got used to us being all hanging out. But equally obv he is too young to understand the 'conditions' that faux family time was under. I never wanted us to be acrimonious, I wanted a clean and civilised break, wherein we contact each other like adults but just wrt to timings or handovers and sleepovers. I don't want to spend any time with him, or to see him.

Lately however ex is getting worse. He phones me aggressively, if I can describe it like that. Eg if I don't pick up the phone he will let it ring, and ring, and ring...up to ten minutes at a time. He speaks badly of me to ds, says I am nastly, says I am stopping them seeing each other. He sends me abusive texts (all types of language from accusations of being mentally ill to being a 'c**t'). The last two weeks on pick up he has leaned into my car and shouted at me in front of ds. I have sat there and ignored him. He's a big man, not very bright, very 'physical' and quite scary. He has never hit me but he has a horrible, chauvinistic attitude to women (he thinks this is normal and funny and that he is just being 'real').

Twice I have phoned our local police domestic abuse helpline. The advisor there was v patient and said I should stop facilitating ds's contact with his father on the ground he was abusing me. I said I didn't want to do that because ds loves his dad. She said to change my number and let him take me to court if he wanted access, and to have the police speak to him about the abusive texts and harrassment phonecalls.

I listened and thought about it but didn't want to rock the boat. For one thing going to court would mean ex getting parental responsibility. He doesn't have it atm; if he did he would use it as a weapon. His latest subject to attack me over is because he wants to take ds abroad. I get chest pains just writing that. I know he wouldn't bring him home. Ex is British but his partner is foreign and I know she wants to move back to her home country and for ex to go with her. Ex has also spent a significant amount of time in N. Africa. If I handed over ds to ex with his passport, I honestly believe I'd never see him again.

So...despite my attempts to keep quiet, keep my head down, roll with the punches etc, things are getting worse. Ex texts me every day, if it's not aggressive, vulgar abuse it's stuff like "All this is your fault," "DS is suffering", "We could sort this out but you don't want to."

DS is regularly tearful over this. I'm not well. I can't sleep for worrying what will happen next. DS comes home and says stuff his dad has said about me and it's agony, it's so not true. I've always wanted him to have a close and loving relationship with his father. But his father is such an awful, awful man. And he's ds's only male role model I am living hundreds of miles away from family, I have no friends really, certainly no male friends. No-one to help or stick up for me or even to talk to. And as the days go by they are turning into months and then it's be years and before I know it ds will have turned into a mini-me of his father and will despise me for things I haven't even done and will likely to go on to treat women in the way his father does (he has been abusive to all his exes - he admits this - the woman he is with now is young and very naive, prob has it all to come). I am noticably touchy after encounters with ex and ds is suffering. He sometimes seems wary of me. I know this is because I snap, when I am thinking of ex being horrible to me, and how much I'm totally stuck and confounded, I get irritable and shouty. I know it's not good and I'm trying to control it.

I'm increasingly distraught by this. Anyway if you've read all this thanks so much for perservering. My dilemma is basically, do I just run, start my life over? I have a very small amount of family a very long way away, we are not very close but they are good people and I know they would help me as much as they could. This of course would mean moving ds away from his father and that side of his family (ex is mean and horrible but the rest of them are lovely and ds sees them a lot). So, probably, ds would end up hating me anyway: if not because his dad has taught him to, because he will remember being moved away from a father he adores. (As well as a town he has lived all his life in, school he's attended since nursery, etc.)

Of course I have no idea how ex will react. I have heard through reading on MN that he could trace me via child benefit. So he could still take me to court anyway.

I am not rich, I have no career, I earn a low wage working PT and would have to rely on staying with family in the short term. This is not ideal, I love where I live now, family don't stay in a nice place.

Even to contemplate this I would have to borrow the 8yrs-worth of savings in DS's name (his gifts from relatives over the years, plus a bit from me when I was better off) and never touched before. I feel like I'd be robbing him.

I'd always be looking over my shoulder

DS would miss out on the good aspects of having a father around. I always wanted for their relationship to be a separate entity to my relationship with ex. I am constantly telling ds how much his dad loves him and loves spending time with him. Admittedly I'm struggling to find virtues to extol, without wanting to be vicious ex is not a good father. He doesn't have the same moral code as me, he is a 'lazy' parent, he's fickle (took off to live abroad for 2yrs of ds's life), questionable ideas about taking care of his safety etc. But ds loves him, they have a laugh together.

WWYD? Don't hold back on any emotional or legal realities! And apologies for anyone who recognises me. I think I post about this on a six-monthly basis under one name or another. I asked one RL person about this some time ago and she sympathised with ex, in her opinion there is nothing a father can do to the mother that warrants her deliberately moving away to escape him. (Well maybe if he was violent she might mitigate that thought, but he has never physically abused me.)

I am thinking of going to my local women's aid for a chat about this but because I am not in acute crisis I don't want to take more of their time than is necessary, hence asking for opinions from MN.

TIA. As lots of you who are isolated in RL know even one or two words of understanding really mean the world.

I am not sure what your son is getting out of this that is beneficial. He is being denied a happy mother. He is being denied a stepfather and siblings. He is witness to his father abusing his mother.

Go with your instincts. Dont care about rocking a boat. Your ex seems more interested in causing you grief than genuinely caring about his child.

What a god awful situation to be in OP. You have my utmost sympathies. I'm usually an advocate of the child seeing his dad. BUT in your case I'd run like the wind back to my family.

Have no idea regarding legalities in this and I'm sure more experienced MNers will be along in a bit to help you.

Look, he can instruct a solicitor to do a 'seek and fond' and have you in court straightaway. The court will likely instruct contact to re commence.

But then you will have the added problem of distance. So your ex can then say he wants overnights. So he may well then end up with every other weekend, and YOU will be expected to do a large chink of the travelling...and pay for it!

Dont stress over PR, he will be given it as matter of course.

It sounds as if you feel you're damned if you do(go to the police/change your number etc) and you're damned if you don't ie you are worried anyway that your son will hate you for taking him and yourself away from this. But isn't he just as likely to be upset and angry with you when he realises what has been going on over the years?

What, really, have you got to lose? You've got to change the dynamic I feel, ie shift some of the ground and the rest will follow. Taking a little bit of the power back by eg changing your number, may start to help you see your strength. Yes, you may have to take the flak from this hideous man, but aren't you doing that already?

I would get all his abuse logged with the police. My friend in a similar situation has a designated DV police officer wrt her abusive ex. She logs all his texts and calls and the police have stepped in once or twice to have words.

You are entitled to be happy. Your son would want this for you and would benefit from it too of course. What is he getting out of contact with his father exactly, other than getting to hear abuse about you? I really feel for you xxx

And yes, as rabbit says, keep a diary.

Report all hassle to police

Maybe mediation could be considered??

ILoveTIFFANY that's exactly what I'm fearful of. He has no PR at the moment so as long as I'm nearby, and ds is going for tea at his house 2x p/w, I have enough 'power' (don't want to use that word) to be able to say no to things like requests to take ds abroad.

As soon as court award ex PR he will have the rights to act even more strongly against me. Plus the act of having to chase me using the court system will antagonise him, and worsen his behaviour.

What happens if I move abroad?

So if I move 400 miles away (current distance between me and my family), the courts will still want ex to have regular overnight stays? How can I pay for travelling if I can't afford it? Or do the travelling if it intereferes with work etc?

I've suggested mediation in the past, ex took offence.

But courts don't care, do they, if the father has spent 8 yrs calling the child's mother a c*t. Because all they are interested in is the rights of the child to see both its parents. And calling the child's mother a c*t is nothing to do with that. Am I right? That's how it goes?

I started keeping all the abusive texts a year ago (have quite a few now).

Have been thinking about your horrid situation. Whilst I have nothing of a legal nature to impart, I will tell you a brief outline of my sisters situation a good few years ago. This may go some way in helping you to put the access situation in context.

Sis was with a bully of a man from the age of 16.
She had 3 kids with him.
She eventually mustered up enough courage and tried to escape him (not really sure if womens aid was around 20 odd years ago, if so we didn't know of it).
He told her that he would kill her if she took the kids (he was never voilent towards them, only her) .
She left on her own initially due to this.
She got herself settled not too far away and got the kids back a year later.

During that year he litterally poisend their minds against her, even went as far as making the middle child who was about 7 at the time go with him and help him stick nails in his mums tyres. She had a blow out on the motorway but luckily wasn't injured.

I could go on an on about what he said about her but I'm sure you can imagine.

Kids are in their early twenties now and there are still repurcussions regarding this. He damaged them so so badly.

This is why I'm on the side of you taking your child and leaving.

This man is controlling you and to be frank a very nasty piece of work. he isnt a good role model to your son, he is showing him how to treat women (and badly). I would move away for good back to family if it were me.

You must stand up to this man if you are to stay put where you live. He is bullying you and you are being controlled by him.
Listen to the Domestic abuse helpline,, they are right , he is being abusive and this isnt acceptable behaviour. Ex has no right to know if you are seeing someone, nor does he have the right to know why you cant get DS to his dads sometimes. Its not his business.
Try really hard never to argue with Ex infront of Ds. just tell Ex you will chat later when DS is in bed .. If Ex becomes rude/insulting tell him you will not discus". . . "I am going now.." Immediately he starts his nastyiness put a stop to it by telling him you are going and hang up/leave.
He will try to press your buttons all the time, and if you bite/respond he knows he has got you. Do not respond or react. This will make him more angry , so leave immediately. He is poisoning your DS against you and he will turn out to be just like his dad , and you may be in for some very very turbulent teenage years.
My Ds sees his dad most weekends and can be rude to me now, sounding just like his dad... which is upsetting.
Listen and take all the advice and help you can get, you need it NOW!
This Ex is going to ruin you life, so put a stop to it immediately and take action.
Remember that in life you cant change someone elses behaviour , only your own. So the way you react to him will make a big difference. Stay calm and dont react.
Believe in the fact that you are doing a good job raising your son, and stay strong.
Assertiveness classes are very good to help deal with difficult people. I went to one and its was one of the best things i have ever done.
This horrible vile man will continue to control totally your life if you let him. Its up to you, but as I said your best option might be to move away.

The situation with DS complicates things. He is currently being assessed for ASD, possible Aspergers. This I think is relevant because he seems to have a hard time processing information, sometimes. He is very easy to influence. It adds to my worries about how ex will try to turn him against me.

Sorry you don't have to comment on this, it's just another factor...people saying that DS will sooner or later recognise his father's bad behaviour for what it is - actually, chances are he probably won't

Why would you think you have to pay for the travel? Surely he would if he wanted to see him?

P,S. NEVER under any circumstances hand over DS' passport to your EX... NEVER!
You do not have to , you are his mother and prime carer... so what you says GOES!

That's a horrible story fuzzynavel your poor sister. Thank you for sharing with me though. I'm quite an easy going character and I guess I've spent too long hoping ex will change and just chill out, because co-parenting could be so easy. But he has always made me nervous, he has always been horrible. Eg when he used to see me with friends he would pointedly ignore them. They would say hello and he would just ignore them. Or I'd have to leave my friends in order to meet him because he 'didn't want to spend any time with them'.

Last night at the car he was shouting at me about how terrible I was in front of ds and he held the car door open so I couldn't drive off. I ignored what he was saying and just asked repeatedly and calmly for him to close the door. He said those awful things then he turned to ds and said, "Do you see that X?" and ds said "Yes."

ILoveTIFFANY said if ex got parental responsibility (which he would, immediately, from a court) then if I were living several hundred miles away a contact order would be put in place and it would be my responsibility to make sure contact was maintained. Eg if ds had to go to ex for a weekend I would have to take him (and pay the expenses of taking him) at least half way there, or one way of a return visit.

Also, if he had PR he'd be able to say to the court, I want to take my son on holiday. The court wouldn't go along with my view that ex would take ds and not bring him home again. I can't prove he'd do that - I know he would, but I can't prove it. The court would just say oh yes Mr X how lovely that you want to take your son abroad, off you go.

I think your son sounds frightened of your ex, rather than loves him, especially if he is starting to act out.
I would do as the police DV unit suggested, and as I did with my ex (who was nowhere near as aggressive as yours)
Stop contact.
Tell him you are stopping contact.
Log every abusive email/text/call with the police. Show them the years worth of abuse you have suffered.
Tell the assessors of your son's possible AS about everything, it may well be contributing to his difficulties, may be useful as evidence for supervised contact.
Make him do all the running re taking you to court for access.
Get a solicitor (on legal aid) tell her everything, show her the background. Press for no contact or contact only at a contact centre or supervised as you are now seeing evidence of the abuse (and trying to turn him against his own mother IS abuse) and that you fear for the child's wellbeing.
You can also take a prohibitive steps order which prevents him taking him out of the country, and in the meantime phone the passport agency and have a caveat put on your son's passport so that you are the only person who can get a replacement passport for him.
Its scary, but you need to stand up and call his bluff. I did. I was literally sick when I came off the phone, but I did it for my DD, I would not see her damaged further by her father's behaviour.

Do talk to Women's Aid, definitely. They won't mind that you're not in immediate danger - they help women out in your situation as well. There is a section on their website in the Survivor's Handbook, although it's not very detailed and more aimed at women just leaving or thinking about leaving.

When your ex is doing these horrible things in front of DS I think you have a duty to tell DS that although Daddy loves him very much and it's completely separate from their relationship, the way Daddy speaks to Mummy is not on and he shouldn't be doing it. It's possible (especially if he has positive role models elsewhere, at school etc) DS will pick up as he gets older that maybe Dad isn't such a nice person after all, but at the moment, if someone he admires is doing it and you're just standing there ignoring it (though I think you're right not to challenge it directly when your ex's actions could be unpredictable) - you just don't want DS thinking this kind of thing is okay, IYSWIM? It's important as well to let him know he's allowed to talk about his Dad and anything he finds worrying and that it won't get back to him or reflect on his relationship with him. And that it's okay to ask these questions even if he thinks he might upset you. If he doesn't want to talk to you, is there someone at school who he could talk to, and you could give them a brief version of the history.

Just to add that my then 6 year old DD had to have months of therapy to deal with witnessing her father's aggression. It initially manifested itself as anger and bad behaviour, but stemmed from a conflict of loving her father whilst also being scared of him. she only witnessed a few of his outbursts, so she had no become immune to them, or internalised them as how 'normal' male female dynamics should play out.

I think that you have a right to say that your ex's behaviour is having a negative impact upon your son's life, and so you arestopping contact until he has taken steps to address his behaviour. I think thats pretty much how I worded it. I also made sure that he must only communicate through a solicitor.

I wouldnt go for mediation - he is abusive and he will dominate the sessions and turn them as another weapon against you. Thats why couple councilling is not recommended in abusive relationships.

Do not be surprised if, once you stop facilitating the relationship, that he doesnt bother. This will no doubt be devastating for you, BUT its part of the game, as is the bullying, threats and agression. That is his choice. Just be there for your boy.

For goodness sakes.....all those saying ' move away'!! Dangerous advice

She moves away and will be in the same situation but with the added problem of distance

Moving away will not solve the problem. I think op, you recognise this? Moving away will merely add to it

The courts are not very interested in the ex being abusive to the mother. It's not right, we know that, but it's how it is. The court will be responsible for acting on behalf of the child, that means upholding his rights ( as per the children's act) to a meaningful relationship with both parents.

Parental alienation us NOT recognised in British courts.

If it goes to court the judge will want to use the status quo as a starting point. He has good access at present. By going to court your ex will be likely to get MORE time. School holidays, Xmas etc. You move away, then with regards to holidays, you are playing into his hands.

The judge can also order you hand the passport over. Bear this in mind

You move your ds from his dad, then it's reasonable to expect you to do a chunk of travel and to pay for it. Argue otherwise in court and you will look unreasonable.

Also,if legal aid is used, then a pre requisite is to try mediation first ( not if there has been violence though)

You could ask for cafcass to be involved too. They can be good. And spot all the usual controlling ex games a mile off!

What NettleTea said. Great advice.

He's damaging your child. You will need to start fighting to prevent that. Try and see it that way - you aren't fighting over your DS - you are taking steps to protect him from his father's abuse.

That's what it is.

In addition to keeping texts, start a diary. A complete account of that exchange by the car, including your ex's bringing your DS into it - making him join in the abuse of his mother - would be a good start. Detail any other events like this that you can remember (dated if at all possible). Then, Women's Aid. Ask their advice, including how to get a solicitor on legal aid. Also, DV unit. Also - very importantly - talk to the school and if possible to your son's assessors. Ask to meet to discuss this aspect of the difficulties your son is facing. His father is abusing him mentally and emotionally, it is relevant to their understanding of your DS and his needs. Be upfront - explain that you are seeking to gather evidence of the affects of his abuse on your child, and do something about it - can they help?

Ask for as much professional advice as you can on how to start the ball rolling on STOPPING this 'man' having influence on your son, from all agencies that you can. You will quite soon see a path of action before you - solicitor, supervised contact, statements from school to support that might be a good start. It is hard but do-able. I am sure other posters who have been in similar positions will be along soon to help.

Please don't stay hamstrung by feeling that you can't 'take him away' from his dad. Right now, he is being used very badly by him. Your ex may say that he loves him - but it doesn't sound as if he has one clue what that means. He certainly doesn't put him first or understand his needs. His main motivation seems to be to control you. I agree that if you start preventing that, you might find this devoted father (who disappeared for two years) might just do so again. And it wouldn't be a loss.

Why don't you make sure that you keep THIS thread going, OP? Could prove invaluable on what will be a long road ahead - support AND I'm sure expert advice from many.

Good luck x