WWYD? Move ds away from abusive ex? Or put up and shut up, indefinitely?

[Tamoo]

I apologise in advance for this being long and convoluted. I have posted before under other names, piecemeal, some of you may recognise me. I'm indecisive and probably quite cowardly so am probably repeating myself.

I'm on the verge of a breakdown wrt my ex and our acrimonious relationship. Background: we split due to me being pg (he didn't want it), I moved away, came back, we attempted to be friends, ds is now 8yrs.

During those 8yrs his father has been jealous and controlling, intimidating, and verbally abusive. I have only had 2 (disastrous) relationships in all that time. Ex would stop speaking to me if he thought I was seeing anyone. He would also want us to spend 'family' time together and would be affronted and moody if I didn't want to, or if I didn't want to discuss events in my life. (NB ex is in a long-term stable relationship and I have no problem with this, am happy for him.)

A year ago I had enough of all this and cut all but essential contact re handover of ds. Ex had got increasingly moody and unpredictable, he was paranoid I was seeing someone and not telling him, he stopped me doing a sport I had taken up (my first hobby in years) in case I met anyone there ('stopped me' by withdrawing his mutually agreed babysitting role). He also threatened me with calling SS because I 'need a shrink'.

He would also get verbally abusive (still does) if he thinks I am stopping him seeing ds. I never have. In fact I facilitate them seeing each other by doing drop offs and pick ups (ex doesn't drive). The problem is he will text (in aggressive, nasty language) wanting to see ds 'now' and that isn't always convenient. He will also phone up ds and attempt to make arrangements with him. I did try explaining that you might do that with a 12 or 15 yr old, but not with a 6/7/8yr old - you have to go via their mum, like it or not.

Obv this has been hard on ds as he had got used to us being all hanging out. But equally obv he is too young to understand the 'conditions' that faux family time was under. I never wanted us to be acrimonious, I wanted a clean and civilised break, wherein we contact each other like adults but just wrt to timings or handovers and sleepovers. I don't want to spend any time with him, or to see him.

Lately however ex is getting worse. He phones me aggressively, if I can describe it like that. Eg if I don't pick up the phone he will let it ring, and ring, and ring...up to ten minutes at a time. He speaks badly of me to ds, says I am nastly, says I am stopping them seeing each other. He sends me abusive texts (all types of language from accusations of being mentally ill to being a 'c**t'). The last two weeks on pick up he has leaned into my car and shouted at me in front of ds. I have sat there and ignored him. He's a big man, not very bright, very 'physical' and quite scary. He has never hit me but he has a horrible, chauvinistic attitude to women (he thinks this is normal and funny and that he is just being 'real').

Twice I have phoned our local police domestic abuse helpline. The advisor there was v patient and said I should stop facilitating ds's contact with his father on the ground he was abusing me. I said I didn't want to do that because ds loves his dad. She said to change my number and let him take me to court if he wanted access, and to have the police speak to him about the abusive texts and harrassment phonecalls.

I listened and thought about it but didn't want to rock the boat. For one thing going to court would mean ex getting parental responsibility. He doesn't have it atm; if he did he would use it as a weapon. His latest subject to attack me over is because he wants to take ds abroad. I get chest pains just writing that. I know he wouldn't bring him home. Ex is British but his partner is foreign and I know she wants to move back to her home country and for ex to go with her. Ex has also spent a significant amount of time in N. Africa. If I handed over ds to ex with his passport, I honestly believe I'd never see him again.

So...despite my attempts to keep quiet, keep my head down, roll with the punches etc, things are getting worse. Ex texts me every day, if it's not aggressive, vulgar abuse it's stuff like "All this is your fault," "DS is suffering", "We could sort this out but you don't want to."

DS is regularly tearful over this. I'm not well. I can't sleep for worrying what will happen next. DS comes home and says stuff his dad has said about me and it's agony, it's so not true. I've always wanted him to have a close and loving relationship with his father. But his father is such an awful, awful man. And he's ds's only male role model I am living hundreds of miles away from family, I have no friends really, certainly no male friends. No-one to help or stick up for me or even to talk to. And as the days go by they are turning into months and then it's be years and before I know it ds will have turned into a mini-me of his father and will despise me for things I haven't even done and will likely to go on to treat women in the way his father does (he has been abusive to all his exes - he admits this - the woman he is with now is young and very naive, prob has it all to come). I am noticably touchy after encounters with ex and ds is suffering. He sometimes seems wary of me. I know this is because I snap, when I am thinking of ex being horrible to me, and how much I'm totally stuck and confounded, I get irritable and shouty. I know it's not good and I'm trying to control it.

I'm increasingly distraught by this. Anyway if you've read all this thanks so much for perservering. My dilemma is basically, do I just run, start my life over? I have a very small amount of family a very long way away, we are not very close but they are good people and I know they would help me as much as they could. This of course would mean moving ds away from his father and that side of his family (ex is mean and horrible but the rest of them are lovely and ds sees them a lot). So, probably, ds would end up hating me anyway: if not because his dad has taught him to, because he will remember being moved away from a father he adores. (As well as a town he has lived all his life in, school he's attended since nursery, etc.)

Of course I have no idea how ex will react. I have heard through reading on MN that he could trace me via child benefit. So he could still take me to court anyway.

I am not rich, I have no career, I earn a low wage working PT and would have to rely on staying with family in the short term. This is not ideal, I love where I live now, family don't stay in a nice place.

Even to contemplate this I would have to borrow the 8yrs-worth of savings in DS's name (his gifts from relatives over the years, plus a bit from me when I was better off) and never touched before. I feel like I'd be robbing him.

I'd always be looking over my shoulder

DS would miss out on the good aspects of having a father around. I always wanted for their relationship to be a separate entity to my relationship with ex. I am constantly telling ds how much his dad loves him and loves spending time with him. Admittedly I'm struggling to find virtues to extol, without wanting to be vicious ex is not a good father. He doesn't have the same moral code as me, he is a 'lazy' parent, he's fickle (took off to live abroad for 2yrs of ds's life), questionable ideas about taking care of his safety etc. But ds loves him, they have a laugh together.

WWYD? Don't hold back on any emotional or legal realities! And apologies for anyone who recognises me. I think I post about this on a six-monthly basis under one name or another. I asked one RL person about this some time ago and she sympathised with ex, in her opinion there is nothing a father can do to the mother that warrants her deliberately moving away to escape him. (Well maybe if he was violent she might mitigate that thought, but he has never physically abused me.)

I am thinking of going to my local women's aid for a chat about this but because I am not in acute crisis I don't want to take more of their time than is necessary, hence asking for opinions from MN.

TIA. As lots of you who are isolated in RL know even one or two words of understanding really mean the world.

As far as I know, a seek and find order is quite hard to get if he doesn't have PR already... He'll have a hard job getting PR 'just issued' if you're not around, but check that out. Friend of mine managed to get away as her abusie ex didn't have PR.

Call womansaid and speak to them about it and the ongoing abuse and about ways of dissappearing so that you can't be tracked down by him.. You'll seriously need to cover all your bases and change mobile numbers everything... In the meantime log everything and make it know to as many people as possible about his behaviour. If he threatens you in any way at all (includes shouting) call the police..

I really feel for you, this is an awful sitation for you and DS to be in xx

I beg to differ Tiffany. I also think that the issue is about controlling the OP and the further away the better. She is going to "her" relatives in the same country.

I also think that his contact will drop off by doing this.

If you are moving to your family then surely he would know to look there first?

Also, something in a previous post you said makes me think Scottish law might be appropriate? I might be wrong on that, just kind of makes a difference.

Re post in legal?

My friend was recently 'found' and court proceedings were issued. She had to travel to court where her ex lives locally. She is terrified

Thanks for all replies they are so helpful. I am just about to google my local WA I think a long chat with an expert might be in order. I have been to CAB before but having walked away with numbers for solicitors decided not to use them. Not wanting things to get acrimonious

ILoveTIFFANY I have seen your posts on this board before and you have verbalised all my major concerns about PR.

I am already IMO quite helpful with contact. Ex doesn't seem to credit this. As I said I do driving duties to make sure he gets to see his dad twice a week (one dinner, one sleepover, more in hols). I take ds out with kids on his father's side of the family, so they get to spend quality time together. He sees him every birthday and Christmas because I know ds enjoys being with his extended family and I have none on my side.

I think because ex is actually, at the root of it, quite naturally aggressive, it's made it harder to deal with. He'll phone ds and say 'do you want to come over now?' He can't, because we've got plans. Instead of saying, ok, cool, another time then? and discuss, he'll take it personally, as if I'm being deliberately obstructive. He demands I explain my plans. I don't (anymore). He interprets this as being nasty. If I don't answer my phone he says I'm deliberately stopping him speaking to ds. All he has to do is ring back or ask me to get ds to call back! It could be so easy. But he starts calling me names, this goes on and on...it seems to be the way he is. He's one of those men who'll start a fight based on the way someone is looking at him, IYKWIM. He does things like, instead of crossing at a pedestrian crossing, he'll just walk out into traffic and glare at the drivers who have to stop for him and who are probably a little put out. He's that sort of person.

I have a history of failing to recognise dangerous personalities actually, I let a quiet childhood with a domineering father (who aused my mum) and I guess you just kind of assimilate what you see as normal behaviour, don't you. In fact I'm in my thirties and it's only recently occurred to me how awful my mum's life must have been, for so long.

Yes, Scottish law. How did I give that away, was trying to be discreet on here

He hasn't met my family since I was pg (and only once then) but yes, he knows where they are, and would look there first.

Do you think he would go as far as taking it to court? You know him well, or is he all talk?

My ex was similiar to yours, but it all fell apart in the court arena. He 'over acted' and came out with nothing. But I had strong, documented proof of his abuse. That seems to count in court!

My concern here is that he has had good contact for what? 8 years? And you have never stopped it or made a 'fuss'. To do so suddenly and moving away cutting all contact leaves you open to some searching questions and may leave you coming across badly to judge/cafcass. If they don't 'get it' like we do, it might not go the way you want

What is it you want by the way? In terms of a father/son relationship, assuming he won't change his personality and parenting skills

Tamoo...it was simply using the word 'stay' rather than live! I spotted it and recognised it as a Scottish way of describing home!

Tiffany, I wasn't telling the OP to run in order to not be found. Just to go to her family where she may have far more support.

He still wants total control over the OP and the distance, could, in my humble opion help.

ILT is right tho -there has been good contact for many years.
you are always telling DS how great dad is. they "have a laugh together" ergo tehre are no welfare concerns with regards to DS (as per contonuing contact etc)

doesnt make sense to outside world that you suddenly stop contact.

however - you could ensure third party hanndovers etc have a restrining order so he cant call or contact you directly - everything done thru third party.

Ah very sharp detective skills there ILT

I don't think I can get 'what I want', it's what I've been waiting and hoping will suddenly miraculously materialise out of thin air, as in: ex and dh have a mutually enriching, fun and loving relationship; ds has someone else to balance me/my parenting, a good male role model, someone who can guide him into manhood, steering him carefully. While basically not slagging off his mother . That's all I've ever wanted. It would be quite simple IMO for ex to explain the situation in a kind way to ds. As I have tried to.

If I don't move away my only other option would be to get the police involved, a solicitor, and to get some kind of restraining order (?) to stop the unwanted/abusive contact, also try and get handovers done in a contact centre so that he doesn't get the chance to yell at and deride me in front of ds. Ex would see this as an aggressive act by me instead of one of self-preservation. And would prob worsen what he says to ds in private. Ds wouldn't understand me being scared of his dad or the idea that his dad was so awful I couldn't bear to see him even for minutes (and I wouldn't tell him that anyway). His dad would tell him I was being a bitch (probably in those words, too) and he'd probably agree.

This is what's causing me sleepless nights - circular thinking. Whatever route I try to go down it all goes back to the same place: ex becoming more aggressive, our situation even more acrimonious, ds hating me, me losing ds altogether.

It's physically painful.

Just so you don't think I'm whining on without doing anything, I have phoned my local WA and found out the drop-in times for tomorrow and Fri, I'm going to go along during school hours and chat through some options.

ex and ds can have an enriching relationship, no dh round here

Contact has been good for last 2 yrs. Before that:

I moved away to have ds as ex wasn't interested and verbalised the wish he would die in utero. Had to give up my home in order to do this, move back in with mum.

We got back together briefly after the birth until ex decided he wanted to go and live abroad for a while and took off for several months.

He came back, we tried again (I know, I know ), was hell to live with, so I broke up with him. He did not see ds except when we were altogether, did not want to.

Ds aged 3, ex started having ds one evening per week, then stopped when he decided to start college/got a gf, because he 'didn't have time'.

Ex left to live abroad again when ds was 5 because his gf wanted to go back to her home country. He spent 18 months away, contact kept up by phone.

Since he came back contact has been current arrangement, I've accommodated changes as best I can (eg he chooses what days he has him during hols). He makes no concessions to me and accused me of 'using' him when he'd babysit while I did my (short-lived) sports class, despite him agreeing to it before I even signed up. He has fitted his time with ds around his own sports classes though. In fact he was offered an extra weekly teatime with ds but didn't want it because he had a sports class.

I have called DV unit twice in the past 18months and calls have been logged and information taken, I have declined to take things further. Have also visited CAB in this regard.

This is all TMI for on here I'm sure but it's helping me to make a record so thanks for bearing with me.

Gosh OP, I have no useful advice...my temptation would be move to another country to be shot of him...he sounds absolutely awful!!
I know that is doable though, so in the meantime I can only offer you some useless brackets.

((((((Tamoo)))))))

Let's have him assassinated. We'll do a whip round.

Good luck Tamoo. It's all very difficult I know!

NOT doable.

Sweetheart, don't want to be blunt here but blimey you sure are enablng this man aren't you.

You definitely need to post in legal. If I understand it correctly you want to move from England to Scotland. As they are different legal systems, you would need your ex's permission in writing (not sure how this relates if he doesn't have parental responsibility). If he does not give it, you would need to petition the court for leave to remove. I have looked into this myself as I have a similar but more subtle ex. It appears to be a long and convoluted process.

From the emotional point of view, you need to start thinking like a lioness protecting her cub. His Dad is damaging and you need to get him away and protect him. The legal system does not work in favour of people in our situations so you need to find out how you can work it to your advantage.

Whatever you do, don't just up and leave. The courts take a very dim view of this. The Reunite website is useful - I think it's www.reunite.org.uk.

Exactly. If you went to a solicitor they would say stop contact now and let him do the legwork to prove himself. Youve given it all to him on a plate because I can see that you feel its important for him to have his father involved in his life. Contact has only been done in the last 2 years because you have dropped everything to accommodate his wishes, and he only needs to start shouting for you to bend over to fit round him, because you want to keep things nice.
You worry that by getting a bit of legal power behind you he will judge it as aggressive, but you have had to call the DV unit twice in the last 18 months - so who exactly started the agression? You seem to have more fear of appearing calm than doing what needs doing. You have left him physically before, now you need to mentally leave him, because he is still dictating your life - FFS he is stopping you having a relationship and gets moody and stop speaking to you if you do - bloody good thing! why do you want him to speak to you.
Accept it is NEVER going to be nice with this guy.
Accept that, despite all your wanting, he is NEVER going to co-parent amicably
Accept that the only way forward is to hit him harder (metaphorically) than he can hit you - get the police, solicitor and all the professionals behind you and take control of the situation. If he has dipped in and out of your son's life and taken a good deal of it wafting off to foreign climes, and contact is ONLY facilitated by your providing it at a drop of a hat, he has not been a reliable constant in your child's life. Given the abuse that your child has witnessed, and how he is trying to draw your child into that abuse, he is damaging the child and I would suggest that supervised contact, which can be monitored for unsuitable behaviour, would be the first step.
You are his mother. You have absolute 100% choice and say at this point about if he has contact or not - there is no contact order, no divorce agreement, no parental rights, nothing but your say so.
Its not easy, and its not nice, but you have to face him down. it needs to be stated that he cannot contact you until the contact agreement is finalised, and then only in relation to contact. Any time he is abusive, report it and get it logged.

Hi. I just thought I'd post an update, to say thank again to everyone who advised me this week. Just so you know your advice hasn't hung inert in the ether. I went to Women's Aid and had a long chat which was really helpful even though I felt really strung out after having verbalised everything. I also have a solicitor's appointment for next week. I have researched/googled/been given the numbers of solicitors several times in the past but this is the first time I've got as far as phoning up.

My family haven't been quite as supportive as I'd hoped, unfortunately, so it looks like I'm on my own as far as whatever the next stage might me, but I'm examining my options.

Things are very difficult with ds. As I mentioned, he's 8. I made a half joking comment to his teacher at parents' evening that he's been very 'teenagey' lately. It was only on speaking to WA advisor that I realised actually this behaviour is very pronounced. He's really, really rude to me, actually. He uses very adult phrases, eg if I ask him to do something and tell him why he'll often say, "That's not a good enough reason." Or, if I switch the TV off, for example, he'll say something like, "What did you do that for?" Then if I pull him up for rudeness/disrespect he'll look the other way/shrug/grunt.

I really worry what's going on behind closed doors. I know some of the horrible things his dad has said about me but I don't know everything, don't want to ask because I don't want to put him on the spot. But it's obvious, really, that he's at the very least starting to copy his father's attitude towards me. I'm really because we're falling out quite regularly. And I must be a moody cow, sometimes, poor kid.

Anyhoo, onwards and upwards. Thanks again for all your advice. As I said before, MN is so precious to women like me who have no RL support. I wish I'd had it ten years ago and maybe I wouldn't have let myself get into this ridiculous mess in the first place.

Tamoo your now scared of confronting your son about his behaviour? please i am not trying to be rude here but you are enabling your son to be just like his father. please get some support around you so you can get some help with this.

any arrangement needs to be set in stone (except for good reason to change) not when he feels like it - so you him and ds ikow exaclty which days

sadly tho you might need to arrange classes etc on another night and arange your own babysitting? otehrwise you hostage to exP.

behviour does soound like copying - best thing to do is make appt with GP and record it - ask for help - they may say it isnt serious enough at this point for referral but that way you have it logged...

Sadly the classes I did are long gone, ex ruined something I was really enjoying, that was 9 months ago I haven't bothered to do anything else, I basically have no reliable childcare; tough luck I don't get to have hobbies, I'll just have to wait until he's older and I have more free time.

I am confronting ds about his behaviour, that's why I'm always 'the bad guy' atm, I was making the point that it's only just occurred to me really to wonder about what's being said about me behind closed doors, and also that ds is copying what he observes, in terms of rudeness, disrespect, indifference etc. I'd been casually putting it down to him having an early tweenage episode when it's likely to be more than a natural, passing phase.

Thanks again everyone.