Urgent advice re access please

[snoopdogg]

DS's are refusing to go to dad's for rest of half term, we have a court order that they should go, what do I do?

They are 3 and 7, this is the first significant contact they will have with dad since split a year ago. They have had three one night weekends with him and one two night, it's the 7 year old who's really upset little bro is just copying. I have been relentlessly positive about contact but he doesn't like staying with dad overnight.

Dad is emotionally abusive and refuses to talk to me or make eye contact, hand overs are tense and stressful for the boys. I have phoned him and asked him to call back to talk to eldest - straight to answerphone, he won't pick up when he knows it's me.

I can see this spiralling into solicitor's involvement and him calling the police.

Do I force the boys into the car?

He can't come and get them as I have a non-molestation order against him due to abuse.

Help!

It's so hard.

I know what i'd do if it were littlemad,but that's me and our very particular situation.

Hope the bump helps until someone with knowledge pops along.

By the way can you possibly self rep in court to save solicitors fees?

You've tried phoning him and he's ignoring you. You left a mesage asking him to call you back so he can speak to the boys.. This is very reasonable what you have done yet he's being a twat.

I definately wouldn't force them into the car. Let him do whatever. You can explain to whoever he calls the situation and what you tried to do. He'll be the one looking difficult, not you

Oh and fab advice from LisaTarbuck about self representing in court x

whatever u do don't force the boys into the car....it's classed as abuse (told this by police) if your dc are saying they don't want to go i would listen to them, have you asked why they don't want to go? has something happened to scare them on last visit?

Thanks people, my gut instinct it to leave the ball in his court.

they don't want to go because it's that old classic, he had nothing to do with them when we were together, it's been so long between him leaving and starting contact - because he forced everything through the courts rather than negotiating direct with me - they just aren't used to spending time with him and have become very dependent on me particularly at night.

Oh, and I've already agreed with solicitor to self represent from here on in since there are no actual legal issues just me and a brick wall... thanks Lisa

Let him call police, they won't come as they can't legally do anything!

Court order...... Says you make them available for contact. Does it stipulate you drop them?

Yes it does, it says that I take them to his and he drops them near mine.

Well in that case it's really difficult. If your ds is 'excused' this time, then it will be everytime. If it goes back to court what then?

You won't be shown in a good light unfortunately. Have cafcass been involved?

I don't want to say too much about the process as it might identify the boys but there has been agency involvement. I am fully supportive of contact and overnight stays and I am equally worried about the effect of 'excusing' them. My argument throughout has been that the jump from two - a four night stay is too much, which is born out by the boy's reaction. I offered him both half term weekends as two night weekends but he refused and demanded half the holiday. and here we are.

he had nothing to do with them when we were together,

why is he that bothered now then?

:( sounds like he's being a knob for the sake of it then.

have you go tthe offers you've made in wiriting?

Littlemad's Dad is cut form similar cloth, it's really sad for the children.

I self rep now, PM me if I can help moral support...etc

diffiuclt one but you need to have "reasonable excuse" to stop contact.

if he takes you to court then you could be fined or sent on community service for not complying with the order.

children saying they dont want to go probably wont be "reasonable excuse" unless there is evidence of any serious welfare concern.

if court order says you have to take them there then you need to do that then video the reaction of dc when dad comes or something so you have proof of what happens and their distress. or take someone with you to do this.

if oldest v distressed about it then take him to GP so there is record of you trying to get some help over his distress.

is there any one else around eg family friends of his that you trust, who would drop in on the boys and report back to you how they are with him?

you need to be v careful how this looks as ILT says.

you could also call cafcass and ask them for advice - again so it is recorded that you have done this. if he drags it back to court you need some evidence/witness not just you saying "the DC were upset". take 7 yr old to talk to someone independent...

He's 7. You need to be in control. This is a legal document and you can't mess about here. It's already been to court and the judge has ruled the 4 nights.

Your 7 year old cannot be allowed to dictate. He goes to school, dentist etc when he may not fancy it. Bet you force the issue on those occasions.

At 3 and 7 I would be taking them to their fathers. If they were 7 and 12 I wouldn't. I would be putting a positive spin on this and telling them it is non negotiable, a bit like if we were going to visit a relative for the holidays. Kids at that age often don't like change. Mine when young often wouldn't want to go to their dads and then wouldn't want to come to mine once there.
They are only going to get used to spending time with him by doing it.
You wouldn't be happy if he didn't return the kids to you saying they refused to get in the car, or if you were the nonresident parent and had had to go through the courts to get access to your children.
He wants to be in their life. Give the relationship with their father a chance.

I think if they are genuinely used to and okay with staying two nights, then a jump to four shouldn't be a problem. Have the overnights been a recent thing, then?

I agree that I wouldn't want to force them but maybe try to persuade them instead? It's a shitty system but you have to work with what you have, unfortunately.

Thanks everyone.

Well they've gone. I telephoned ex again and persuaded him to call back to speak to boys. He was reluctant and said I should just put them in the car but on the last two occasions DS1 has run away when we've got to dad's house and I am doing my best to keep this positive.

I must stress again that I fully support contact and I know that this is a bedding in period and that they will get used to it, it is just so hard. I feel like I'm treading such a fine line with regard to this being successful. My biggest worry is that DS1 can't settle because his feelings are ignored, he's happy with over nights, just one at a time. I fought hard for a slower build up but did not get it.

Ex is controlling, manipulative bully and his only access to control me now is through the boys. He will not accept anyone else delivering/collecting boys. He has refused to hand them over to family members.

DS1 asked dad on arrival if he could telephone me and if he could come home if he wasn't happy. Ex closed door in my face so I didn't hear his response.

I am keeping a diary and have contacted my solicitor about this morning. I have HV input so will also call her.

2rebecca - I have done nothing but support their relationship, after he left he didn't see them for 12 weeks, then saw them for 2, then a break of 10 weeks. I have prised sobbing children from the car, I have taken them to police stations for handovers which has terrified them, I've stood still and silent while a torrent of abuse has been spat in my face in front of them. I have been dragged through the court at a financial cost of £24,000 because of his refusal to negotiate, I have withstood endless investigations of my behaviour, parenting and mental health and I have never, ever failed to deliver them for contact.

Thanks for the support

Both half term weekends owuld have equalled the same amount of nights right?

It does sound like the situation is somewhat conflicted.

In your Cafcass report what was the recommendation about contact? (I know they like to move it along pretty quick and establish contact routines swiftly)

Has you 7yo got a clear reason for not going - or is it more 'I don't fancy it' Does dad encourage them to call home if they want to?
What sort of things will Dad have planned, if it's I don't fancy it it might be worth discussing those activities with your DC's to encourage them.

(I know it feels grim that some absent fathers can do this swan about and then they appear to pull all the strigns when it suits them, but you just have to knuckle down sometimes :( )

Yes, it was the same number of nights and my reasoning was that he would then have had three two-night weekends in a row which would have helped the boys adjust more quickly but the report recommended half the holidays. It did say that there should be a build up to contact but he argued that the build up related to weekends, not holiday and that as this was the first available holiday he wanted exactly half of it. My ex does not have a 'child centred' approach to contact as has been noted by all parties involved.

7yo is very attached (overly?) to me. I did eventually persuade ex to call and talk to boys this morning and he did go on about all the positive things they were going to do and it did work however, see above.

This would all be so much easier if he was not so aggressive towards me but I can't influence his behaviour. I don't feel like he's pulling strings really more like he risks breaking them if he continues to be so negative. 7yo feels completely separated from me when he's at dads, he said in the car ' he won't let me call you' I said I'd ask him to 7yo replied 'but he won't listen to you and he doesn't do what you want'

I know this will calm down, eventually.....

maybe let him know that even if you dont talk he should know you thinking of him?
that at night before he goes to sleep he can think of you and you will be thinking of him - kinda telepathy?

I think you need to be going back to court and involving all the agencies and professionals possible to get contact reduced or stopped. A man as abusive and bullying as this is harmful to the DC. I appreciate you don't want to give too much detail but when you say that this horrible man's approach and attitude 'has been noted' that suggests that you could have a lot of professional back up on your side to the effect that the man's behaviour is damaging and therefore contact should be reduced.

More court? Did you not read how much this has cost so far? the courts don't work like that. The welfare concerns need to be HUGE to make anyone sit up and listen!

Contact stopped???? Really sgb? Really. Cos of what?

Great advice here and I don't know if the following will help at all but - one thing you can do is look to the future and KNOW that you will be able to sit your boys down, look them in the eye and justify each and every one of your actions during this difficult time. And they will be able to see and understand exactly why and how you put them first, prioritising their relationship with their dad, upholding the contact even when they (at 7 and 3) didn't want it. When they're grown up, they'll understand and admire you for your approach. And they'll know that you always, always put them first. As young adults, the security and confidence that that knowledge will give them is more precious than rubies.

It doesn't sound as if the same will be true for your ex, unfortunately. Sadly, when it comes to situations like this, nasty abusive bullies do get their comeuppance... it sounds as if unless he changes his attitude to YOU quite radically in the next couple of years, your boys are going to vote with their feet as soon as they're old enough. And it WON'T be your fault. Your support now, although it must be tearing you apart, will at least give you the peace of mind to know that if they made the decision to not see their dad in the future, you can put your hand on your heart and know that you had nothing to do with it. Similarly, if their waste of skin of a father can muster up enough humanity to provide them with at least a shadow of what they'd want from a father, enough to keep them wanting him in their lives, you can take credit from that result too.

Of course all of the above only follows as long as the situation doesn't tip over into worry. As others have said, please keep your diary, document every abusive action on his part, especially those in front of the boys, and report report report. Keep an eye on the boys and be ready to take it back to court if necessary.

Remember that with every abusive move (such as not letting your child speak to you) your twat of an ex is only actually harming HIMSELF. Showing his two sons what a horrible bullying monster he is, and making them ever more likely, with every snarl and push, to ensure that as soon as they're old enough they'll not want to see him. More fool him!

Meanwhile, you have succeeded in moving on to an everyday life where his abuse and bullying is a distand memory, contact notwithstanding. Where the boys have a happy home life protected from this bully. They'll grow up better and happier than they would have been, because you have provided them with a safe loving hom away from him.

Sending you all strength.

SOH thank you so much, I really appreciate you taking the time to post that. I know all the things you say are true and I know that he will be the loser if he continues like this. It makes me very sad.

cest brilliant idea, even if it did make me cry. When we were going to the car this morning DS1 asked if I thought about him when he wasn't there and I said yes, every single minute, which is the truth.

ILT: This man is so abusive that the OP has a non-molestation order against him already. He screams and spits at her in front of the DC, which can't be doing them any good. They don't want to see him, they are afraid of him - I think that minimizing or stopping contact by any means necessary would be justifiable.