Urgent advice re access please

[snoopdogg]

DS's are refusing to go to dad's for rest of half term, we have a court order that they should go, what do I do?

They are 3 and 7, this is the first significant contact they will have with dad since split a year ago. They have had three one night weekends with him and one two night, it's the 7 year old who's really upset little bro is just copying. I have been relentlessly positive about contact but he doesn't like staying with dad overnight.

Dad is emotionally abusive and refuses to talk to me or make eye contact, hand overs are tense and stressful for the boys. I have phoned him and asked him to call back to talk to eldest - straight to answerphone, he won't pick up when he knows it's me.

I can see this spiralling into solicitor's involvement and him calling the police.

Do I force the boys into the car?

He can't come and get them as I have a non-molestation order against him due to abuse.

Help!

Actually, OP, one solution which might work is that you get someone else to do the drop off, and if this man refuses to take the DC, home they come.
Then you will have a witness and a record of unreasonable behaviour - he cannot use access to DC to force you to have contact with him. You do not have to communicate directly with him in any way.

If your dc run away from him, Please call the police and have it recorded.

Thing is, SGVB, he is abusive to me, not the children. As far as the courts are concerned I have a non-mol and am therefore adequately protected. There seems to be minimal consideration of the impact of his behaviour towards me on them. I don't know why this is the case but it is.

Unfortunately, it will probably end up as SOHsays, they will work him out for themselves and he will lose them. Still, I can't influence his behaviour and I have disengaged.

But being abusive to you in front of them IS being abusive to them. Children who witness abuse show the same symptoms as though they were abused directly and that's what their behaviour is about.

The children's act is about the rights of the children and they aren't happy. You're representing yourself now right? I'd do what SGVB says and go back to court before any more damage is done.

To add, he clearly isn't bothered about them either, this is all about getting back at you and that is very damaging for children in itself. He is just using them.

you could get the order changed to having drop off and pick ups by a third party - to avoid DC having to witness the abuse.

given you have non mol order, it seems that would make sense.

then as was said, if he refuses this, then he is shown up.

but - the fact he wants to have dc for four nights -well it looks on paper like caring involved father doesnt it?

as Dc get older they wil be able to expres more about what goes on when they there

I agree, I think the answer is for someone else to do the hand overs and I understand that he uses them to distress me. Unfortunately it isn't possible for me to ask anyone else to do it at the moment - classic emotional abuser he has isolated me. We live in a very rural location and I am slowly building friendships again.

Also, he doesn't want the dc for four nights, he wants half the holidays, he wants what he's entitled to. I've got his number

OK keep working towards getting someone else to do handovers. You're clear on this man's motivation, which is to harass you so reducing his opportunities to do that will help. Is it possible to hire a childminder or someone to do the handovers, or do you think there is a risk of him being abusive to such a person?

You said he ignores you now? Won't speak to you etc?

Sounds like he is aniding with non mol order.... Good

Op, sgb says your dc are frightened of him? Where do you write this? I couldn't see it?

No they aren't frightened of him, DS1 gets very anxious about hand overs because he knows daddy doesn't like me and he can't understand it. It makes him unhappy.

OP, I really admire the way you have behaved today, although you seem to have endless and good reasons for frustrating contact between your DCs and their father. I imagine that you are motivated not just by a need to comply with the court order but also the wish that in time your DC can have a good relationship with him. He's the only father they have got after all and hopefully he wants a good relationship with them and has not just gone through the whole court process just to get at you, iyswim.

I write this because I have first hand experience of the devastating effect it has had on a father who has lost contact with his DC because their mother went out of her way to ensure there was no contact. There is no history of abuse in this case and the separation was not his decision. During lengthy divorce proceedings which concentrated on division of finances, contact every other weekend happened like clockwork, although from what the DC said it was clear that history was already being rewritten. As soon as divorce finalized, DC simply were never there when he came to collect them. They moved house - he was not given the address (or informed of a serious illness with one of his DC). He initiates court proceedings and 18 months and a huge sum later he amazingly is awarded a court order - amazingly because DCs are now all over 10. He went to the arranged meeting point, over 200 miles from where he lives, for 7 months, but the DCs were never there. Visits to the police station were ineffectual. He could go back to court but knows he will just be confronted with 'the children do not want to go and are old enough to make up their own mind' and has instead resigned himself to having no contact with his DCs. A very sad situation, and although I only hear one side of the story, I do believe it is the DCs' mother who has manipulated her children and it is their loss.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but given the history of abuse towards you, I do admire the approach you have taken. Young children do need one parent to facilitate contact with the other and you appear to be going to great lengths to do this. I hope it all beds down well for everyone. But of course you will know when it is simply unworkable and act in the best interests of your DC.

thank you skin. I'm not new to this, I have an adult ds from a previous relationship as well as my two little ds so I'm well versed in the value of contact. My first exp and I always worked in the interests of our son which adds to my distress over how this is going now. However, I remain committed to the value of my boy's relationship with their father. I will see this through and have been so helped by your and other mumsnetter's input today.

Time for methinks given that I'm alone tonight

I hope the evening did not feel too long without your DCs and you managed not to worry about them too much.

In the event of parents' separation, the interests of the children should always be the priority, bloody hard though it might be in a situation like yours. This I think is how my exP and I have always behaved and the DCs are happy in their two homes. You however are the absolute shining example of a good mother! Your exP is very lucky to have had children with you and he is getting more assistance from you in maintaining the contact with your DCs than he probably deserves. The statistics for the number of children who lose contact with their father are shocking and sad.

I very much hope things work out well.

Snoopdog I really feel for you and your 2DS. I have a 7 year old DS to and it would break my heart if he was upset like yours. Your H sounds like he is using the kids to get to you. Can you get your HV to sontact the SW dept. No child should be made to stay somwhere over night if it upsets them that much (even if it is with an absent parent) If your H was reasonable your DS emotionable well being would be his priority. He should be letting him speak to you while he is at his. IMO this is abuse and he is using your sons to get to you.
I hope things work out xx

I think contact issues are completely different when there is abuse involved. Any parents who abuses the other parent is abusing the child IMO.

It's difficult to balance the need for DC to know their father/half their heritage and not have rejection issues against the need to show DC that abuse is not to be tolerated and for the abused parent's right not to have to put up with that abuse. IMO this is best achieved by maintaining contact but by keeping it brief, with minimal contact between parents, and, if necessary, with supervision. Despite the non-molestation order, that doesn't sound like what's happened here, though I suspect it has been the OP's willingness to be fair that is partly responsible for this.

As ILT says, there is little point in going back to court unless you can back up a desire to change the court order with substantive proof. You need to record your DSs reactions to going to your XPs. You need to express your concerns to the HV and get it all on record. You need to find a way of proving incidences like your DS running away from your XPs house because he was so distressed at the idea of going there. Otherwise it will just look like you are being obstructive.

In the meantime, one tactic I have seen used to great effect with abusive XPs like this is to act as though his contact time is your 'lifesaver' and 'how wonderful it is to be able to go out and have a good time' etc (e.g. go to drop off dressed up to the nines and let slip your 'plans', etc). I have known a few XPs who have fought for contact for no other reason than to upset the other parent and 'take what they're owed' do a complete turnabout with contact when they think the other partner might be, god forbid, having a good time without the DC.

Hello all, thanks for the input and sensible advice.

I woke at 4.30 am yesterday with the migraine from hell, spent the day on the sofa with the odd rapid trip to the bathroom. On the upside it meant I had about 14 hours sleep and feel quite perky today!

I had a long convo with my sis and she says I'm facilitating him continuing the abuse and that he's breaking the court order, there is a clause that he is be civil to me and exchange greetings, she says I should grow a pair and get back to court.

It's true, my overriding wish is to do what is best for ds's - facilitating contact, minimising distress. moonshine my worry with that tactic would be that it would increase his rage.

Am I taking the wrong tac?

snoopdogg - it probably would make him more angry TBH. But it's a mistake to think that you can (or even should) alter your own behaviour to keep his anger manageable. His behaviour is his problem. Let him own it.

I'm with your DSis on this, though I understand completely where you're coming from because like you I tried to be the ultra-reasonable, go-the-extra-mile, not-being-one-of-those-XP's-who-stop-contact, whatever-is-best-for-the-DC type mothers.

It doesn't work with abusers. They simply take advantage of it.

I also realised that I was setting my DC up for greater hurt by trying to maximise contact and trying to get their father to live up to it. One day, he would let them down badly. Far better not to raise their expectations in the first place. If he was prepared to make the effort I would not stand in his way, but I was not going to make excuses for him or set him on a pedestal that was set on less than secure foundations. He alone is responsible for his relationship with his children. You get out what you put in.

I only started to stop contact when I had doubts about my DCs safety with my X. Looking back, I'm not sure what else I expected. Anyone capable of abusing a partner they have professed to love is also capable of abusing a child. THat doesn't mean they will, of course, but it's a much higher likelihood than among the general population, especially since abuse is based on a sense of entitlement, not anger. As DC get older and challenge more, their behaviour will bring them into direct conflict with their father's sense of what he wants (which in his head is far more important than what they or anyone else wants).

I started compiling evidence against my XP and involved my DV and SS. Then I hit him with everything I had. I was geared up for a fight (even though I was very confident I'd win it because I wasn't asking to stop contact, only to keep it safe and under supervision) but I never got it. Like many bullies, once you stand up to them they back down. This only works if you can see things though and you've got the evidence to back it up though. Now my XP understands I won't tolerate any misbehaviour, and I will follow through with consequences, I have no problems from him at all, and on the rare occasions I see him I even get a smile. It can be done.

Good luck. You've got a lot to think about, but with support you can find a solution I'm sure.