Soo long, soo sorry :) men are creeps

[Bobits]

Hi, am new here, although have been reading the boards for awhile.

Unsure as to what Im asking, perhaps affirmation that Im doing the right thing?

Any feedback would be welcome!

Sorry if this gets long, will try to put it into order...

As stated in title Ive just had dd2 - 10 weeks and perfect!
dp of 2.5 years and I moved in together 6 months ago with my 5yr old ds1(previous relationship) Tough for us as DP has no kids and im mid pregnant. He has always been great for ds1. I was finding he wasnt pulling his weight and seemed withdrawn. He was finding the lack of time and space difficult.

I never had a problem with dp watching porn. Until I discovered at 7 1/2 months pregnant he was going onto live webcam sites to 'watch' while he pleasured himself. Totally crossing a boundary for me. (Before even potentially chatting and spending our money).
When confronted was told 'your angry cos im having a wank' & 'its not like we're doing any thing anyway' (not my choice, but because I have a baby bump and he finds it ackward!)
Was utturly shocked at his reaction, not so much the act. But talked it through, explained how i felt hurt and why. Thought he got it but caught him again a week later. This was denied and just put down to watching a 'random porn video' so i ignored the sneaking in and deceitfulness I think because I was in a vulnerable place and wasnt sure if I was being hormonal and over-emotional. It got me thinking about us, about his behaviours & withdrawal or failure to communicate.

We moved on but I couldn't quite let go of what happened. Anyway we had our lovely DD2 and at when she was 6 weeks i ended our relationship.
Mainly because of communication problems. I would raise a problem (money, housework,) dp would input nothing, i was left feeling like there was no point talking to him and things deteriorated.
And because of the webcam thing. How that had panned out the trust in out relationship was destroyed. As he still continued to use porn this also didnt help. Going off to the toilet to have a wank with your phone while your partner is bfing a 5 day old isnt normal is it. Is it just me or does that show a total lack of empathy?

I took dp back after a week because He seemed to show genuine remore and realised how he hurt, disrespected and devalued me as a person and a woman. (I hoped, not because he was caught out and lost out on a happy family).

We 'both' talked more, i thought, identified our problems and that they needed work. Came to the conclusion he (may)has a porn addiction/ unhealthy relationship with porn and that he would have to stop using it.
I tried to start again to rebuild the trust, letting him know it had to be earned but if he was prepared to put the work in i would give him another proper chance.

Sadly, i had suspicions, all denied of course. I could be over sensitive and mistrusting but with good reason. I checked his fone 2nite and found a twitter feed with girls pics on it. Not a big deal, but given where we are - out of line. When I confronted him - he had NOTHING to say. So I handed him a bag

It doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks is crossing the line - for the OP, crossing the line was her dp video-camming. Didn't mind him watching, did mind him interacting. That's her prerogative. Your deal-breakers may be different, but she gets to decide what she is willing to put up with.

Yes and no. The OP is in a relationship, and by definition that means that "the line" is defined by the mutual understanding of both parties, not by a unilateral declaration by one. You're right of course that the OP has the right to formulate her own boundaries about what's a deal breaker and worth terminating the relationship for (although I see nothing wrong with her casting around here for a variety of perspectives in doing that). But there are obviously strong reasons not to terminate many relationships, particularly those with children, and then it's a question of both parties negotiating a line that they can at least live with.

^I think i was hurt because he seemed to withdraw from our relationship emotionally and barely any kisses or cuddles and go off sex when i got a noticibly growing baby bump. I felt hurt because he didn't worry that my needs weren't being fulfilled. I was just to do without because he found it ackward.
I suppose it just felt he viewed me as a womb and a pair of mammary glands, instead of somewhere warm and wet. I know thats a horrible way of putting it but thats how it felt.^

Are you sure he didn't just feel completely out of his depth, convinced that you didn't feel comfortable about being viewed sexually, and thought the most sensitive thing to do would be to leave you alone till "it's over"? I think that's more common.

Have you talked to him about this aspect? It sounds potentially like a huge misunderstanding.

confidence - i think ppl watch porn because it gets them off, not because they don't feel rejected by who or what they are watching.

Oh I think it's definitely both. Part of the reason it's so easy to get off to is that you're not having to negotiate a whole raft of emotional and interpersonal factors at the same time, including the possibility of being rejected. It's just pure sex.

And in fact this would make sense with the point above, if he perceived your pregnant self as rejecting him sexually (regardless of whether you actually were).

A relationship doesn't mean you have to put up with things you find hurtful and unacceptable. You have to wonder why it was so goddamn important to the dp to do interactive porn when there is loads of other stuff online, and he knew she was ok with non-interactive. She wasn't asking anything major. Why should his line be more important than hers?

Ah yes, the argument that a Relay-shun-ship is worth fighting for. Because somehow, being in a relationship, is better than having self-respect.

No, it's not. This guy is a skank who isn't worth fighting for. Don't let the porn promoters try and convince you that you're wrong OP. This guy has a really poor view of women. How horrible that he stopped seeing you as a sexual, real, loving person, when you were pregnant. That in itself would make me doubt him, without all the other shit.

There is no reason why anyone should have to live with something that makes them deeply uneasy or unhappy. No relationship is that valuable.

Well FWIW I'm not saying that the relationship is worth "fighting" for. I didn't make that judgment one way or the other. It's pretty clear that the OP has though, at least for the moment.

One wonders why she would have bothered posting such a long post here if it were as simple as "Live webcam porn. That crosses the line. Relationship over."

And buzz - I most certainly didn't say that his line was more important than hers, either. What I said was that if they want to stay in a relationship, for whatever combination of reasons, it's up to them to negotiate the line together. Like everything in a relationship.

Hmm, I'm not sure about that tbh.

I think people can have unilateral lines and as long as they're upfront with the other person and say "this is my line" that person then makes an informed choice as to whether to accept that line or not.

The difficulty comes, when the line changes or hasn't been made clear, because sometimes people only realise that their line has been crossed, when it's crossed. Prior to that, they didn't realise that that's where their line was, IYSWIM

Did you actually read her opening post, confidence?

She did negotiate with him - they talked. Together they discussed the issue. He said he had a problem with porn and would stop using it, particularly the interactive form. That was the outcome of their negotiations.

He didn't stick with his agreed side.

How many times do you cover the same ground, agree an outcome and then find the other person was not negotiating in good faith before you say 'no more'?

Yep, I certainly agree with you there Woooooooooooppity.

One could add to that the fact that the internet generally, and internet porn specifically, has thrown up a whole plethora of issues about relationships and potential "lines" that there is no substantial body of background thought and experience behind, and this generation of parents are having to find their way through all that without a roadmap, so to speak.

And the more perennial fact that pregnancy, childbirth and child-raising has the potential to surprise people in so many ways that their whole conception of such lines goes into the mangler and comes out looking very different.

But in principle yes, one can have unilateral lines. It's the OP's choice whether she wants to approach it that way or put them up for negotiation. My understanding is that she's opened a conversation to try and gain more clarity about what she wants to do.

Buzz - but read that part of the OP carefully:

Was utturly shocked at his reaction, not so much the act. But talked it through, explained how i felt hurt and why. MISSING Thought he got it but caught him again a week later. This was denied and just put down to watching a 'random porn video' so i ignored the sneaking in and deceitfulness I think because I was in a vulnerable place and wasnt sure if I was being hormonal and over-emotional.

Where I've inserted MISSING is the part where it says absolutely nothing about his reaction to her explanation how hurt she felt. It doesn't actually say that he agreed that she was justified in disapproving or felt wrong about it himself. She says she "thought he got it", but what does that mean? It carries with it the presumption that she's right and it's just a question of him "getting it", not of having any potentially valid position of his own on it. It may well be for example that he muttered what he thought she wanted to hear without really meaning it, just to smooth things over, and that was it.

Sadly this is very common I think, and is the flipside of the sort of unilateralism we've been talking about. One partner simply "explains" to the other "how it is", and is then surprised some time later that they don't "get it".

Note I'm not entering into who's right and wrong here. I'm just referring to the dynamics of communication.

Confidence,a good part of the problem here is the dp's inability to discuss problems maturely. He sounds overall as though he has a lot of growing up to do.

OP, I am so sorry you've had this crap to deal with. He does sound like a prize dick - though your statement in your thread title that "men are creeps" is not true, and is pretty offensive to most men!

You've indicated that your previous partner was a git as well. I think that when you're feeling up to it you should give a good deal of time to working out why you're attracted to such unpleasant men instead of all the lovely, kind men out there! You deserve to be with someone who loves and respects you - but do you think it's possible that you don't quite love and respect yourself?

In the meantime focus on the good things - your lovely children and the good people around you. And please don't ever settle for the 'any old man is better than no man' approach.

So you're saying, she expressed herself clearly, but he didn't respond or went along with her all the time not agreeing in his head. Surely that's down to him. How does it become her responsibility again to negotiate again?

He knew what her dealbreaker was. She told him clearly.

If he couldn't live with that, it was his responsibility to say "I can't live with that, I want to do interactive porn". Not pretend to go along, or hope she wouldn't find out.

You seem to want her to have to keep negotiating with someone who isn't responding in good faith. And that's pointless.

confidence - what he 'said' was his reaction.

if i wrote a dialogue it would take far too long so i have tried to condense it down.
And talking it through consisted of me saying 'you doing this makes me feel this because of this.' If i was watching a man doing the same - how would you feel and he said he wouldnt like it. He could have said im not going to stop watching webcam stuff. But he didnt. He agreed he wouldnt like me doing it either, said he would'nt watch it, but did it again anyway.

I agree with you and aus - communication is the main problem not porn.

If dp cant comunicate that me being independant makes him feel lonely - i cannot reassure him.
If dp cant communicate that after having dd2 he feels jealous and lonely - i cant reassure him.
He just feels anger and resentment towards me.
And uses porn because its easier and requires no work and sacrafice. But thats not how life works. And its not how happy relationships work.

Bobits - That's clearer, I see what you mean. And I agree that it sounds like a problem of communication. He sounds a bit stunted in that area to be honest - not that that makes him a bad person. You seem pretty open-minded and flexible and like there's no reason you could resolve most things with reasonable communication from the other side.

Buzz - I'm not sure where you're getting all this from. I don't "want her to have to" keep doing anything. She's an adult whom I don't even know and she can do what she likes.

I do see communication issues as a bit more nuanced than you seem to though. Some people just aren't very good at dealing with things as straightforwardly as you describe, for whatever reasons. the OP's DP seems to be one of them. Again it's not a question of what she "should" do. She may feels that she wants to stay with him for his good qualities and is willing to put up with his poor communicating.

Like i said i can't write absolutely everything. nor can i covey emotion of how things happened and its easy to be misread con and buzz.

My dps parents seperated when he was 12 and his mother left perhaps leaving him with abandonment issues.

I agree a 'problem' doesnt define a person or make them bad. But as said to sponge finger about her exdp drink and anger problem, it is there problem to want to help for themselves.

And I do try to be open-minded and see things from other peoples perspective. When he came home 2 weeks ago i have been initating 'talks'. We talked about his porn usage and remembered early on in our relationship - he stated 'i'll have to delete all my porn' and i said 'Y would u do that'.
We talked more and he said he doesn't really think porn should be used in a marriage.

'When we talked he said when we had dd2 and i was bf-ing he felt lonely and jealous (a normal emotion) but instead of sharing this, he withdrew futher.'

Not really all that normal if it was all he felt and couldn't see past that.

That withdrawing of his is training you, the sort of training Garlic talked about. The effect of withdrawing is that you focus your attention on him and wondering what you are doing wrong, how you can win back his attention.

Please do not be so quick to say that the problem is communication. That implies that the responsibility for causing and solving this lies with both parties. To the extent that communication comes into it at all, the withdrawing as training is how he chooses to express his view of the relationship. He is communicating very well here. Just not out in the open and using a language you can understand. His message is that he has chosen to disregard you.

The problem here is your OH's idea that he can do as he pleases, including lying to you. You have an absolute right to object to his porn use in your marriage and to say no to it, even to make it a 100% dealbreaker. So the issue is porn too, what he thinks and feels about it and what you think and feel about it. If it's not negotiable, it's not negotiable, and you are better off without it and without him.

'If dp cant comunicate that me being independant makes him feel lonely - i cannot reassure him.
If dp cant communicate that after having dd2 he feels jealous and lonely - i cant reassure him.
He just feels anger and resentment towards me.
And uses porn because its easier and requires no work and sacrafice. But thats not how life works. And its not how happy relationships work'

That is an excellent analysis of your relationship. You are dealing with a bottomless pit that will be impossible to fill.

She said 'No porn', he said 'OK' but went ahead anyway.
On top of the hurt of finding the porn, there is the hurt at being deceived. There is also the matter of the loss of trust that comes from that deceit.

It is not up to the OP to repair that trust, and no amount of 'communication' on her part will achieve that.

Dp used porn on a daily basis until we met. Then stopped completely for a while. He started again sometime during us but didn't know when and it increased when we moved in together.
I told him how I had observed some fo his behaviours and he seemed to be very secretive about it.
It was at this point he asked if I thought he had an addiction (which i suspected). He used the word addiction, not me.
He said when he uses porn he doesn't have any interest in sex with me.
He has said that he finds himself looking for opportunities to use it and that he has felt bad because he should be spending more time with us. (Where he has decided to stay home to watch porn, while I take out ds1 and dd2.

I guess I'm not asking whether porn is right or wrong
I just wanted to know whether anyone else thinks what he has said points to a problem?

I appreciated him sharing this when asked leading questions was huge progress for us at the time.

I had asked him not to use it, not because it's wrong, but because of it's detrimental effect on our relationship and he agreed with that.

We agreed to work on our communication, sex and intamacy problems.

There is so much conflict though. If he has a problem with porn he most likely wont find it easy to stop without proper guidance. But if he is honest with me we are over and he feels he needs to lie.

The bloody web-cam was nothing. It just opened a can of worms.

'Was utterly shocked at his reaction, not so much the act. But talked it through, explained how i felt hurt and why. MISSING Thought he got it but caught him again a week later. This was denied and just put down to watching a 'random porn video' so i ignored the sneaking in and deceitfulness I think because I was in a vulnerable place and wasn't sure if I was being hormonal and over-emotional.'

• Where I've inserted MISSING is the part where it says absolutely nothing about his reaction to her explanation how hurt she felt. It doesn't actually say that he agreed that she was justified in disapproving or felt wrong about it himself. She says she "thought he got it", but what does that mean? It carries with it the presumption that she's right and it's just a question of him "getting it", not of having any potentially valid position of his own on it. It may well be for example that he muttered what he thought she wanted to hear without really meaning it, just to smooth things over, and that was it. -

Confidence, The way you know he had got it is his attempt to brush it under the rug a week later when caught redhanded (so to speak), and make a lame excuse/engage in hairsplitting, which has been reported. I think it is also probable that she spoke in English and expressed herself clearly, as she does here.

Nor is there any presumption implied here as to whether she is right on the matter of porn, or that he doesn't have any ideas of his own about it. If he has ideas about it then it is up to him to speak up.

This really isn't about the 'dynamics of communication' (which seems to mean 'where the OP is going wrong' here). It is about one person having a tendency to use porn, make the right noises when confronted and told how that made the other feel, and then instead of discussing the matter if he had anything to say on the subject, waiting til her back was turned and going at it again. The essence of good communication is clarity.

You have suggested to the OP that words she used might have come out like blibbityblibblib to her OH, and you have suggested that she has been somehow unPC in her expectation that her views on pornography should be taken seriously by her OH, that his views could be equally valid.

If he had a problem with her views on porn he should have said that. Reading his mind is not her responsibility and it is beyond her capacity.

Bobits : To be honest, it is completely natural to not know what is going on when your partner becomes pregnant. It is new territory for both of you, and something that is frightening especially when it comes down to sex during pregnancy. I bet if you asked, he was probably afraid of what could happen, and didn't want to risk the pregnancy. Especially if you haven't gone through it before, I bet most blokes if you asked them, would probably be scared of something happening that would risk the pregnancy. Those that probably cared about it, would most probably see it that way, and to me, that isn't a jealous action. I think also, because the body is changing when you are pregnant you become more focused on things, and to be honest there are a lot of things going on.

I think he probably feels ashamed of it, and just doesn't know how to approach it. I think some of the posters on here have NFI when it comes to porn, that is up to them I guess, but then to make comments on it, doesn't really make a lot of sense. I think that there is a massive difference, but in this case being seen as the same with the same outcome, as the DP having an affair.

Especially when comments are, that you should kick him to the curb, because he watches porn, and it is degrading to women. I bet to be honest, that the ones making these comments are under an illusion that their partners don't watch porn. I would probably say that they keep it pretty well hidden. Not saying that everyone watches porn, but come on... Then there is the whole rant that it seems that only men watch porn, and then that all women find porn disgusting.. Well that may be, but I certainly haven't found that. The thing here I think, maybe just a method of communication, and setting the levels, rather than what some posters say in regards to maturity. I think if I read it right the OP was happy with porn within the relationship, but as a couple, rather than by themselves. The interactive porn, (don't think we know that is was that interactive), but rather than sitting there watching a live feed. The thing is, really if you look at it, a live feed is no different to watching pre-recorded porn, it is just that it is live. It was only to get sexual tension out of the way, so that it didn't become part of the problem. He probably wasn't being honest about it, because at the end of the day the driver here was to get the sexual tension out, maybe because there was going to be no other way anyhow. It isn't as if you can just stop it, and then have nothing else to replace it with, that I think would be unreasonable. Do you think there could be an element of jealousy?

OP : Where do you feel the line has been crossed and why, not quiet I totally understand, and want to be able to say things that will help give a different view if that makes sense. I know that it upset you, but what was the feeling at the time. What was it that really got to you about it.

aus - i know this thread is long and my posts are wordy so ill just copy and paste! What is NFI? Are you a man btw?

AT THE TIME I WAS UPSET AND FEELING...
I think i was hurt because he seemed to withdraw from our relationship emotionally and barely any kisses or cuddles and go off sex when i got a noticibly growing baby bump. I felt hurt because he didn't worry that my needs weren't being fulfilled. I was just to do without because he found it ackward.
I suppose it just felt he viewed me as a womb and a pair of mammary glands, instead of somewhere warm and wet. I know thats a horrible way of putting it but thats how it felt.

He was not worried about hurting the baby through sex. She was early and he thought that might have been because of what we were doing that night might have caused my waters to break.

The biggest problem with porn is the potential for people to be exploited. I am a bad person for not caring more about that.
And I do try to be open-minded and see things from other peoples perspective. When he came home 2 weeks ago i have been initating 'talks'. We talked about his porn usage and remembered early on in our relationship - he stated 'i'll have to delete all my porn' and i said 'Y would u do that'.
We talked more and he said he doesn't really think porn should be used in a marriage.

I do not do or like certain things. I do not squirt or like anal.
I would rather any dp watch than act out.
I have my fantasies I would not deny anyone theirs.
Bukkake and gagging porn IS degrading to women.

Dp used porn on a daily basis until we met. Then stopped completely for a while. He started again sometime during us but didn't know when and it increased when we moved in together.
I told him how I had observed some fo his behaviours and he seemed to be very secretive about it.
It was at this point he asked if I thought he had an addiction (which i suspected). He used the word addiction, not me.
He said when he uses porn he doesn't have any interest in sex with me.
He has said that he finds himself looking for opportunities to use it and that he has felt bad because he should be spending more time with us. (Where he has decided to stay home to watch porn, while I take out ds1 and dd2.

aus - forgot to add dp was not jealous of my baby bump. he said he felt lonely because i was independent during my pregnancy.

Of course i was jealous. dp did not want sex when he used porn. And i cant lick my own twunt...

Im sorry but you sound quite silly... 'the driver here was to get the sexual tension out, It isn't as if you can just stop it'

I think i may be scared to leave the house now...

What happened to men before porn, did they just implode?!

Dp used porn on a daily basis until we met. Then stopped completely for a while. He started again sometime during us but didn't know when and it increased when we moved in together.
I told him how I had observed some fo his behaviours and he seemed to be very secretive about it.
It was at this point he asked if I thought he had an addiction (which i suspected). He used the word addiction, not me.
He said when he uses porn he doesn't have any interest in sex with me.
He has said that he finds himself looking for opportunities to use it and that he has felt bad because he should be spending more time with us. (Where he has decided to stay home to watch porn, while I take out ds1 and dd2.

I guess I'm not asking whether porn is right or wrong
I just wanted to know whether anyone else thinks what he has said points to a problem?

Yes, I certainly do. If it makes him not want sex with you when you still want it with him, and leads him to prefer it to going out with you and the kids, I'd say that's a huge problem.

I don't think the answer is necessarily a blanket ban on ever using it at all, and you seem to have a more realistic appraisal of the potential complexity of it anyway. But there is certainly a problem. I'm not sure what the answer is.

Math -

She said 'No porn', he said 'OK' but went ahead anyway.

Just so we can be clear what we're talking about here: no she didn't. She didn't say "no porn", and has said that she doesn't have a problem with porn per se. It would be misleading to try and paint this as a false dichotomy with the OP firmly on one side of the "Porn Is The Root Of All Evil" argument.

"they keep it pretty well hidden. Not saying that everyone watches porn, but come on."

Well er, actually, yes you are pretty much saying that everyone watches porn. It's extremely insulting to all the posters' DH's who don't watch porn and aren't infantile enough to feel the need to lie to their DP's about it, to tar them all with the liar brush.

What a low opinion of men you have auschopper. And how interested you seem, in trying to get the OP to accept a form of porn that she has been categorical about not wanting to accept. Even her DH hasn't tried to get her to accept this form of porn, he's just lied to her about it. Why do you feel the need to get her to change her mind on this? She's said she doesn't like it, end of, why are you trying to persuade her that she's wrong to feel the way she does? Have you got shares in webcams or something?