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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

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Original poster

leaving verbally abusive relationships/controlling men - where did you draw the line?

29 replies

livingonthedge · 25/09/2011 17:59

I can't decide what I need to do and cannot decide where to draw my lines. I wondered where others who haveleft, or who haven't, draw lines and what they take into account - ie it isn't black and white - it is all grey and I wondered how people made sense of the greyness.

OP posts:

beatenbyayellowteacup · 25/09/2011 18:00

You're going to have to give more information before people can post, I think.

Original poster

livingonthedge · 25/09/2011 19:18

All couples (I assume) row occasionally. Everyone says things that they don't mean. Most people can behave in an unreasonable fashion occasionally, especially in a relationship. I suspect that in most abusive (any kind of abuse) relationships itdoes not start out as instant full-on abuse. Also that kind of relationship tends to make you feel that it is your fault. So I am wondering how people decide where to draw the line. oh shouts a lot. When is "a lot" too much? He has never clearly hit me but has made physical contact recently during an artgument - I wouldn't say "hit" - more violently pushed my hand away - so did he "hit" me? That sort of thing.

OP posts:

WhereYouLeftIt · 25/09/2011 19:34

Regardless of whether I'd call it a hit or not, it certainly sounds like an escalation. Bit of a red flag, IMO.

You say your OH shouts "a lot". In 18 years together, my DH has never shouted at me. Not once. Does that put your OH's behaviour in perspective?

notsorted · 25/09/2011 19:35

I didn't draw lines because I was vulnerable ie pregnant. Ex started on c. I said I didn't like it and kept trying to say I didn't like it. It was fuel to the flames as he knew what hurt me and used it as a weapon. Ditto b, w*.
In another post I made an analogy: if you know the rules of your relationship ie that you both argue, or are happy for an open relationship or indulge in some potentially dangerous kinky sex then as long as no one oversteps the rules then no one gets hurt. Or if one of you does you can sit down and talk about it calmly and say you won't do x or y again then it might seem a bit ott to others it's ok. But if it doesn't feel ok to one half and the other continues to do it and you can't say ok we/I/you went too far and apologise then it is probably ok. But if you are tense waiting for the infringement on the relationship to happen again, on eggshells trying to avoid it by agreeing to things that you find uncomfortable then it is not ok. Also would say that at certain times of huge stress - new baby, bereavement, job loss, moving house then you can chalk it up to that situation on occasion. But the big thing is how you both deal with what has happened and whether you can discuss how to deal with things differently. Hope that helps.

Original poster

livingonthedge · 25/09/2011 19:49

if it doesn't feel ok to one half and the other continues to do it

the problem is that he isn't in control when cross - he calls me many things (eg fcking btch) but sometimes even denies it afterwards. He also will do it under his breath a lot - not sure why. Anyway he appologises, says that he will try to stop, then loses it again.
He does seem to be getting worse though. We are both constantly tired. I think tat it is because i have gone back to work but do not yet really earn that much but am having to break back into the job market, work my way back up etc and so I'm working long hours. This means that more of the HW falls to him or doesn't get done (his job is very up and down - late hours one week, very quiet the next). This makes him cross so he is stressed and so is harder to live with.

OP posts:

WhereYouLeftIt · 25/09/2011 20:00

"the problem is that he isn't in control when cross" - I think you'll find that he is. Because if he wasn't, he'd probably have found himself sacked at some point, for getting 'cross' at work. I bet he has no trouble being in control there. DO NOT FALL FOR THE 'NOT BEING IN CONTROL' SHITE. It is always a lie. If he loses it, it is because he CHOOSES to do so.

"This means that more of the HW falls to him " - ah! And that would be something he sees as beneath him, would it? He's pissed because his servant has been redeployed?

Original poster

livingonthedge · 25/09/2011 20:10

probably have found himself sacked at some point, for getting 'cross' at work

OP posts:

SirSugar · 25/09/2011 20:19

I wonder if he spends an equal amount of energy and time concerning himself with why you may be stressed or finding things hard and the reasons for your general attitude?

Its probably not even occured to him

If the relationship is shit and your partner takes the piss and treats you like shit, you should spend time concentrating on what you require, boundries etc to make you content.

Give up thinking about why hes a twat; he just is

madonnawhore · 25/09/2011 20:19

Does he make you happy? Do you feel safe with him? Does this relationship bring positive things to your life?

For me, there were lots of mini wake up calls IYSWIM. But the main thing that made me know it was the end of the road for me was when I realised that if I'd gone on a first date with my ex now, I would have thought he was a prick and not bothered with a second date.

Suddenly I saw him as the kind of twat my friends and I would take the piss out of if he came on to one of us in a bar. Pretentious, flash, greedy, sexist, rude to taxi drivers and waitresses, etc...

But ultimately I think if you can't honestly answer yes to the above questions without any caveats at all, then the line needs to be drawn.

WhereYouLeftIt · 25/09/2011 20:21

"I think that he feels that, rather than HW being beneath him, I should somehow arrange life so that it doesn't need to be done" - in other words, HW is your responsibility? How does this make it not beneath him? And the complicated/boring - whatever you do it's your fault, you cannot win?

How many red flags do you need OP? Your OH has crossed many of my lines.

To go back to your first post, you said "I can't decide what I need to do and cannot decide where to draw my lines.". Now, most people don't consciously draw lines ahead of time, someone else just does something that they find unacceptable. So it's like you are saying you don't know what is unacceptable. Which suggests to me that you know something is wrong but it's been there so long it has become normalised, and you don't feel you know right from wrong any more.

As a general rule, if you're not sure what is unacceptable to you, there's a good chance that it would be unacceptable to everyone else.

CactusRash · 25/09/2011 20:22

This makes him cross so he is stressed and so is harder to live with.
So he is using you an emotional punching ball. He is stressed so it's OK to have a go at you just because you are there...... TBH, whatever work evirinment he is in, the has no right to behave like this. The first thing that should be in a relationship is respect and he doesn't seem to show a lot of that.

For your question, when do you draw the line? When suddenly it gets too much. It varies a lot from one person to the next. And it will be something different for every single person. No right or wrong answer. Just something that comes from within. Suddenly, you 'know'.

SirSugar · 25/09/2011 20:23

My DP wouldn't dream of shouting at me, nor I at him; its the mutual respect we have for each other. If there is an issue it is discussed, apology where due and no blame thrown about..

My late H on the other hand, he was the abusive/control type...

epeems · 25/09/2011 20:25

It's hard because not only do you have to weigh up/consider whether the relationship is right, then you've got to think about the effect of the split on children, how you get thru' the interim stage of splitting, who lives where while house sold, having less money etc etc. In fact I'd be very interested to know step by step how some people have split and come thru' the other side.

SirSugar · 25/09/2011 20:29

When you have worked out in your head if hes a good decent man or a nasty twat, you will know its time to draw the line.

IME if you are posting about it on this board, you have already made your mind up - I got here looking up abusive relationships in Google; just wanted to check that my radar was right at the time

CactusRash · 25/09/2011 20:34

The other thng is that you might actually draw the line on an 'intellectual level' (and say he is a twat because of X and Y) but take a bit more time to be really mentally/emotionally.

As you've said, abuse is something that is quite often creeping up, yu don't notice it (and you think you haven't) and it can be hard to trust yourself again.

SirSugar · 25/09/2011 20:38

I've read threads on this board where women who have been in abusive relationships were in agreement that they realised quite early on that it wasn't quite right and carried on regardless. I know I did all the while trying to convince myself that somehow we would find a way. In reality it was a shite relationship

CactusRash · 25/09/2011 20:39

Yep, that's where counselling can be very helpful.

SirSugar · 25/09/2011 20:41

counsellings great with the right counsellor, helps you sort out your head and concentrate on you

SirSugar · 25/09/2011 20:46

I used to look at couples in the street/ at school functions/in restaurants and wonder if the man treated his woman like shit; wondered what their relationship was like

CactusRash · 25/09/2011 20:49

Also, hearing from some one 'neutral' that your H behavior is appauling is a nice confirmation that you are not making a fuss.

Original poster

livingonthedge · 25/09/2011 20:49

..Does he make you happy? not really at the moment - hasn't for the last 6 months but that isn't really that long (been together for a longtime)

.>Do you feel safe with him?
not entirely but that is only recent

... Does this relationship bring positive things to your life?
some things yes but at the moment they are mainly the practical things (help with kids so that I can work, money (am still very financially dependant on him) etc.

In fact I'd be very interested to know step by step how some people have split and come thru' the other side.

so would I.

I take the points about "if you have to ask if it is unacceptable then it is" etc but I don't think that it actually is that clear cut. Maybe my expectations are unreasonable? I think his are (when he does leave the house to work he has to get up early and apparently "everyone else's wife gets up and makes them breakfast" (at 5.30am) - I don't and don't think that I should but he thinks that I should (and I suspect that some of his workmates wives do) so he sees my staying in bed as my being unreasonable.)

Also he has got loads worse recently - sometimes I wonder if he is on teh verge of some kind of breakdown/male menopause/etc.

OP posts:

CactusRash · 25/09/2011 20:52

You are looking for excuses for his behaviors. :(

Do you think he is respectful of your wishes? (And btw, I would not get up on a regular basis at 5.30am just because my H is getting up either!)

SirSugar · 25/09/2011 20:55

you are not his servant

Ihavenotgotmyspecswithyme · 25/09/2011 20:56

I was in an abusive relationship. At the time I tended to blame myself and so did he. I needed to see a cousellor to talk through my legitiamte doubts and fears about going it alone. Much happier now. X not changed. still controlling. He is very good at it though. Manages to appear to be Superdad to others, which is the most annoying thing of all now.
The reason why you are in a state of indecision could be all part of what he does to you. If you were happy and confident you would have more direction. The focus of your life has been avoiding trouble with him and not clarifying what you need. Of course you don't know what you want- you've had no room to decide. my x was always complaining that I was indecisive, now I just like to take my time to make my mind up about stuff and I enjoy exploring options. what a difference

sunshineandbooks · 25/09/2011 21:01

I'm sorry you're feeling so down about it all.

I think it's a mistake to decide what is and isn't acceptable behaviour by measuring its shades of grey. It doesn't matter. You don't have to put up with something simply because it isn't that bad compared to something worse. If it's bad enough, it's bad enough.

IME you tie yourself up in knots trying to establish boundaries with an abuser. They will shift them and do it in a way that makes you unsure whether that boundary has been crossed or (more likely) that you were being completely unreasonable to erect it in the first place. This is because abusers do not respect the boundaries of their victims.

Some otherwise decent people can sometimes behave in an abusive manner for various reasons. If you have a long marriage and your H has never behaved like this before, then it's possible that he's one of these rather than a fully fledged abuser. If you think there is something underlying his recent behaviour, you may want to dig a bit deeper before giving up on your marriage.

However, do not fall into the trap of trying to 'fix' him. Only he can do that and to do so he has to take responsibility for his behaviour and he has to sort it out - not because you're erecting boundaries but because he wants to. If he can't or won't do that, you have your answer.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

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