Which one of us needs help?

[Kermit1979]

I know that there are countless threads on here about emotionally abusive relationships, but I'm looking for some honest advice on whether my DH is causing our problems, whether I am, or whether we're just inherently incompatible. Apologies in advance for a long message.

We argue a lot, and DD is currently 6 mo - too young to be affected at the moment (it mostly happens when she's in bed in the evenings), but the very thought that she might be affected when she's older is making me consider the future. I'll give an example of the most recent argument because it illustrates a lot of the same themes that keep recurring.

Last night, I made what I considered to be a lighthearted comment as DH carried his dinner plate into the kitchen. I said 'I wish you were that helpful all of the time.' I didn't mean it to sound like a cutting remark, I actually (stupidly!) thought that he would just smile. Most of the time, I fetch the plates and clear up after dinner, but he does help probably one or two nights a week. Admittedly, he works and I'm a SAHM, and i know that I'm quite lucky in terms of what he does, so I understand that my remark probably did seem hurtful. But his reaction was, in my opinion, way way over the top. He went mad at me for implying that he doesn't help - he stormed off, told me that 'all of my friends' partners are "down here" (indicating to the floor!), while he is "up there" and that he's not appreciated by me on 'any level.' He called me ungrateful (something that he's doing a lot recently) and that I don't appreciate the life that he provides for me. I apologised, kept calm and told him that I really hadn't meant to offend him, and shouldn't have said it. But he carried on.

He said that he's sick of how ungrateful I am, and that my apologies are never 'heartfelt.' I always feel that he expects too much of me when he wants me to keep apologising - for me, 'sorry' is enough (unless the damage was much greater than just a simple remark) but his feelings seem to be hurt so much that he can't forgive straight away. I frequently feel that I;m treading on eggshells around him because of how sensitive he can be. I told him he has a problem and that he needs to move on from things quicker, which angered him even more. I also asked him to calm down because I was scared that he would wake DD, who had slept so badly the previous night. In the end, he did wake her.

At this point, we had been arguing for about 20 mins, but i had been all the time telling myself to stay calm. When DD started crying, I was furious. I looked at DH and asked him to go in to her, and he refused (I;m always the one who has to get her back to sleep). What happened then was 100% my own fault and I'm ashamed to admit it - I smashed my drinking glass on the floor. I have never before broken something deliberately, and I didn't even really intend to do it, so I was as shocked as DH. But he just smiled at me - it's like he's triumphant when he pushes me to lose my temper as badly as him. But at the end of the day, we both lost our tempers in the end which is why I don't think it's as clear cut as saying that HE has the problem. Maybe we both do.

He didn't help to clear up the glass and he continued to refuse to go and calm DD while I cleared up. I ended up in tears, shocked at myself and upset with him - he became completely calm as soon as my temper had flared up, and took himself off to the bedroom. I was so upset and told him that he's making me hate him, and this time we have to face up to the fact that our marriage has serious issues (something I always end up saying, but then apologise for later).

We are both passionate people, but I can honestly say that I've never had a relationship before that brings out this side of me. I have always cried pretty easily, and become angry and raised my voice in arguments, but I never called my ex boyfriend names, I didn't swear at him and I certainly didn't break things. I feel that DH has taught me this behaviour, but I can't even type that without recognising that I might be blaming him for my own problems.

Has anyone experienced this kind of arguing before? Is it a problem that we can solve? Leaving him is something that I'm not sure i could ever contemplate. I would hate myself for breaking up our marriage and depriving DD of having two parents bringing her up together. I would rather find a way to get out of the problem, but first I need to feel confident about who exactly has the problem.

Oh I've just read your post again - you did say sorry and he didn't accept it and move on.

That's a problem on his part in my view - if someone says sorry sincerely then that should be the end of it.

I read your post thinking that you were a bit out of touch with your husband's feelings, and that you needed to try to take how he felt a bit more seriously. Also that you yourself are unhappy on some level with the dynamic of your relationship, otherwise I don't think you'd have made that first comment - you say you meant it as a joke, but to me it seems a strange kind of joke to make TBH. And that all this led to a row where neither was hearing/understanding the other one properly or seeing the real problems underneath it all. That maybe you both need to try to have a frank, non-confrontational discussion about what you're not happy with in the relationship, and really listen to what the other is saying, not assume they are just attention-seeking or whatever.

But then I came to this:

What happened then was 100% my own fault and I'm ashamed to admit it - I smashed my drinking glass on the floor. I have never before broken something deliberately, and I didn't even really intend to do it, so I was as shocked as DH. But he just smiled at me - it's like he's triumphant when he pushes me to lose my temper as badly as him.

...and that kind of changed my whole perspective. I find the smile thing very very creepy to be honest. It puts a whole different spin on the episode for me...has something like this happened before? Like do you really think that maybe he was just winding you up the whole time so you would ultimately lose your temper? I'd be very disturbed if I truly believed my DP had been doing that to me, and I'd definitely question the relationship.

Was going to post the same thing as riverboat. It seems he wanted you to lose your temper and was satisfied when you did.

I don't blame him for not going to the baby when she cried. It's pretty obvious that she wouldn't have settled with him and then he'd have to admit defeat.

I do think you were mean and nasty in your initial comment. I would hate living with someone who talked to me like that. You could apologise as much as you liked, I doubt I'd believe you didn't mean it.

The 'I hate you' thing is more understandable - it's what tends to come out when you don't feel you're getting through to someone. I don't think he should think you mean it, unless of course it's backed up by your behaviour.

Maybe he is finding it stressful being the only financial provider - it must be difficult for someone to feel the safety net of their partner's salary has vanished. It must have occurred to him that it would be disastrous for him to lose his job - that in itself can be very stressful.

I didn't like the sound of his triumph. He certainly didn't come across well there.

Mmm, the smile bit is worrying. Was he pushing you to lose it? That is an abusive technique so that you end up feeling guilty and accepting the whole blame.
Arguing constructively can be useful ie you can step back and at a later date discuss what sparked it calmly.
Up thread the idea about the rules of engagement is a really healthy way to deal with a relationship that gets heated and an agreed way to make up. To do that you have to be able to talk. Have a look at anger management techniques some of the stuff that is suggested in DV perp programmes about how to accept you have a problem, look at the effect, find a new way of dealing with it. But you can only work on yourself. If he enjoys the prolonged sulk, the refusal to discuss then he is enjoying the power of seeing you suffer and that is unhealthy.
But take heart as you are questioning the situation and taking responsibility for the glass breaking and realise it was a serious incident. Self-awareness is healthy.

Suspect there's a lot more to this (when it comes to the DH's behaviour) and that this is but one example. OP how're you doing?

You made a remark, it didn't come out right, he didn't like it and you apologised immediately.

That should have been the end of it imo and all the crap that was thrown at you after that was totally uncalled for. So he takes the plates into the kitchen a couple of times a week - quick, give that guy a medal

Pushing and pushing until you lose your cool and then pointing the finger at you (and smiling in this case, eeurrgh!) is a well known control 'technique' for want of a better word there.

Please come and join us on the EA thread as LittleHouse suggested.

I've a feeling you'll recognise a few elements of his behaviour in the posts there OP.

Don't pander to his tantrum any more now - enough drama has been created by him and he ought to apologise to you, not the other way around!

Is he calling you lazy and ungrateful because he thinks this or because he knows it will get a reaction? It sounds like he is pushing your buttons to hurt you. Suggest he stays at home with the baby and does all the domestic stuff whilst you go back to work. I bet he won't like that.

It's well known that people sometimes appear to smile when faced with unfamiliar awkward or even horrific situations. It's a throwback to ape lip curling, apparently. So I wouldn't read too much into the 'smile' given the unbelievable behaviour he was faced wth.

I think both parties are at fault here

I used to get 'no gratitude around here' rant too the minute any help request/comment was made.

With my ex it was because he didnt do his fair share of anything and was trying to guilt me into thinking otherwise. It also hid a big sense of entitlement on his part to be 'allowed' to do what he wanted when he decided he felt like it.

Kermit, I am very very sorry you are going through this. I can't judge whether your initial comment was nasty, it depends on the context, the tone, your face, etc. But his smile after you broke the glass is disgusting, repulsive, it freaked me out a lot. I think he has a problem, not you. He really looks over sensitive. I understand having arguments, especially if you both are exhausted at the end of the day, but I don't think it is normal that he expects you to apologize for an hour each time he feels offended, he should move on.
I think he's selfish too, you are doing the harder part staying at home. Raising a child and taking care of the house chores is more demanding and difficult than whatever job your H is doing outside.

Red flags for me are the obvious:

'Lazy' - you've been looking after a small baby. Even if the housework is not getting done, I don't think this is warranted. The 1st baby is a big shock.

'Ungrateful' - wtf? You should be grateful for his wages - ie what you're doing at home doesn't count? OR you should be grateful for the chance to stay at home - he could have spoken up if he'd wanted to do it. 'Ungrateful' smacks hugely of a perception that you've got the easy side of the arrangement and that 'man's work' is more important and needs to be lauded.

Couple this with his idea that other men are 'down low' while he is 'way up here', and it sounds to me like you've got a big ego on your hands. You apparently should be grateful to him and he has the right to harangue you for substantial periods of time when he feels like it. During that time, any apology you offer will be 'insincere' so that he can carry on the ranting.

Then you have the fact that he was pleased you lost it and broke a glass. What's the betting that will be brought up during any disagreement for the rest of your life? Also we have the fact that he never gets up with or puts to bed your baby and refused to go and try to settle her when he woke her up with his ranting.

I'm sorry, but I'm not getting why people are saying your original comment was the problem. He sounds like a big problem.

My DH used to sulk after arguments, just like urs does, and won't relent. I learnt quick....if u r sorry, say it and leave him be, ignore his sulking, and don't continue begging, or he'll come to expect that from you. You were both wrong, apologise for ur part in it....explain u were only joking when you made initial remark and let him know that he really did upset you, and u were both at fault...,,then walk away from the situation if he doesn't immediately apologise for his part. Don't nag, don't carry on begging or beating the dead horse.....let him see a different reaction from u, and he'll soon learn that ur feelings should matter too....try that n see....

Also, u need to make him aware that you would be happy to swap roles - not in a nasty way....he needs to know that u work just as hard as him - men find it difficult to comprehend unless they have been HH.

What schobe said.

He smiled at you when you broke the glass because he knows he can use that against you in future, and that it's proved his "point". You aren't perfect but it doesn't look like he wants you to be nicer or more grateful- he wants to be able to have a go at you and make you think you're in the wrong. He likes berating you.

"I frequently feel that I;m treading on eggshells around him because of how sensitive he can be."

That shouldn't happen. You need to stop doubting yourself so much and start examining his behaviour because it's pretty disturbing to read about. He's got you confused and doubting yourself. I have been in this situation in a previous relationship and one thing I learned over everything else was that I could never "win" with him: nothing I did would be acceptable. Even my apologies were flawed, likes yours.

Thanks so much for all of your replies. I am confused now - I want to believe the people who can see that he had reason to be offended, and that I would have annoyed them too. But equally, there is some truth in the replies from people who seem to know a bit about EA (and I am going to visit that thread next to try to learn more). The thing is, I don't want to just think 'this shouldn't happen' - I want to know WHY it happens, and then be able to change it. I think we owe it to DD.

Anyway, last night turned out much better than I expected. He came home from work and I sat down and 'properly' apologised for what I had said initially (i.e. I did actually mean my apology - it really helped me to hear that other people thought I had been unfair too). I said I know it was nasty to say that when he was in the process of helping me, and that he must have wondered what had gotten into me (extreme exhaustion!!). He said he could tell that I meant it, but that 'i have to trust him' that I didn't sound sorry last night. I also apologised for smashing the glass and losing my temper. He said he realises that I wasn't being myself at that point, and that it's easy to forgive me when I seem to really mean it. So he did forgive me, and the rest of the evening was fine. Later on, I raised the 'lazy and ungrateful' thing with him - asking if he really means it. He said he doesn't, and that he hugely respects what I'm doing with DD. By the way, I DO expect to return to work in future (when she and any siblings are at school), but for now I would genuinely rather do this - it's very much my own choice.

So last night was fine, but he didn;t actually say 'sorry' for his part in it (which is so often the case!). Perhaps he's just stubborn, or perhaps we have a more serious problem. At the moment I'm prepared to wait and see what any future conflict is like, if I detach myself from it somewhat and try to think about some of the things I've read here. I do think that a lot of his behaviour in arguments is learned from his mother (she was very very nasty to him when he was a teenager, and she often gave him the silent treatment for days) but he has made efforts already to change some of that (e.g. he never completely ignores me any more - he'll talk to me, but just sit in another room, which he insists is his way of calming down). Is this classic of emotional abusers? That they have been mistreated themselves?

Sorry, I seem to have written a very long post again!!

But what about the imbalance in your roles wrt your DD?

You say:
"i put her to bed every night and get up with her - he has never done it, and I do agree that he shouldn't have to due to getting up for work the next day"

I couldn't agree less with this. Fair enough, you do MOST of the settling if he really works long hours and is up super early.

But in case you hadn't noticed, YOU do extraordinarily long hours and get up super early. There should be some give and take here.

What about his bonding with his DD and feeling capable and involved in her care? I know my DH would have felt DEPRIVED if I had done all the putting to bed, getting up, cuddling when they wake etc. It's a massive part of being a dad surely? Does he even know how it feels to calm his own daughter after she's been upset? Shouldn't he want to know? It feels pretty good.

It seems like he says one thing once it's all calmed down to appear reasonable but then in the heat of the moment - that he may well be creating on purpose - he then says all this nasty stuff again, which he may well believe.

Ok, your original comment wasn't great. But, his subsequent punishment of you is out of all proportion. The fact that you are bending over backwards to apologise to him until you have done so to his satisfaction I think is very telling. Especially as he never feels the need to apologise to you. If an apology is so important to him then surely it should work both ways and he should feel it is equally important to apologise enough (at all even) when he has hurt you?

I agree that the smile when you lost it and smashed a glass is significant - has he reacted this way before? It's like saying 'I'm so calm but look what a nutter my DH is'.

I wouldn't try to analyse the reason for his behaviour too much - that's his job if he wants to do anything about it. All you can do is look at your own behaviour. And I don't mean you should be prostrating yourself for behaving so badly. I mean you can change the way you react to his behaviour and perhaps not pander to it - so, if you feel you need to apologise for something you do so - once. And leave him to behave however he chooses without beating yourself up.

Have you read the Lundy Bancroft book? Might be worth a look.

Kermit,

From your last post, I really think you should have a read of the EA thread.

You have ended up taking the blame for his over-reaction to a throw-away comment that you actually apologised for at the time.
Your confusion as to who is 'right' and who is 'wrong' is also typical of EA. I spent years feeling confused and to blame. You will see this pattern in others that have experienced EA.
Yes, it is typical for those that EA to have been neglected, abused etc. in their own childhood.
If you think logically about it, this is what they have learnt growing up. They simply do not understand emotional support not having experienced it themselves. Instead they lash out and blame others for everything (including random strangers in cars, bosses, work collegues, family). Very often you will hear that everyone, everything (i.e inanimate objects) are against them. Passing the blame onto others is a way of not having to take responsibility for their own actions (You pushed me, you made me do it etc. If you only acted differently, spoke differently then I wouldn't have to be like this).

Should add, YOU cannot change HIM. Only he can do that. My H has changed with over 2 years of weekly therapy. I've had the same amount of therapy too (separately) and we are in a better place now.

" Is this classic of emotional abusers? That they have been mistreated themselves? "

It is classic for both the abuser and the abused to have suffered some form of neglect or abuse in their childhood, and/or witnessed an abusive relationship between their own parents.

The abuser externalises the childhood pain and shame: seeks to put down and control those closest to them. The abused internalises it: deep down s/he feels that s/he deserves no better treatment. Neither is adept at respecting themselves or respecting others. Immature behaviour ensues, such as silent treatment, blaming, hanging on and waiting for the other person to change their behaviour, etc.

How did your own parents behave with each other? And with you?

OK, I think I do need to go and look at the EA thread... He does lash out at anyone and everything sometimes, and admits that he's a 'moody' person. He's never got violent, it's all verbal. He gets angry if someone in front of him is walking too slowly, if they don't hold doors open for him, or if people do anything that he perceives as rude or disrespectful to him. But at the same time, he doesn't really act like this with friends. It's either at home with me, or outside with strangers. And he does have a great side to him too - he knows that he's moody and short tempered sometimes, and I love him because his good qualities really are good.

My own parents are happily married and I can count on one hand the number of times that I've ever heard them argue. However, i did argue quite badly with my Dad when i was a teenager. The usual teenage stuff really, and it didn;t follow any of the same patterns as arguing with DH (we certainly never gave each other the silent treatment!). i was taught that both people apologise after an argument, and that grudges are never held. DH's mother is the opposite of this - she is never, ever wrong. She delights in acting completely out of control sometimes (e.g. arguments with neighbours in the street!) and in having the last word. His father NEVER criticises her.

My own feelings are all over the place with respect to all of this. I feel so, so upset when he won;t listen to me apologising, and I get wound up eventually. But then, when it's all 'back to normal', I'm happy with my life and relationship. Does the EA thread suggest that men like this should always be left?! Do they tend to see the light eventually, and recognise what they're like?

The EA thread is for support, and all of us are gearing to leave or have left, having come to the conclusion that our Ps don't want to change, and we can't make them.

Do start by reading the books and links listed at the start of each EA thread, though. They'll give you a clearer picture of what might be going on in your own marriage.

Me and my other half argue (or argued) like this. We both used to bring out each others' bad sides. We're very bad at leaving things and our arguements used to escalate to name calling, I have broken a plate once (dropped it into the kitchen sink too forcefully), and I have been known to actually stamp my feet with frustration.

It came to a head one night about a year ago. We had SUCH a bad fight (raised voices) that the neighbour asked if everything was alright. Needless to say we were both mortified. And I am the louder of the two of us and she's never looked at me in the same way since.

AFTER the fight (the next day), I made it clear to my DP that his and my behaviour is unaccpetable. We had a really long talk (maybe an hour, which is very unusual for DP as he doesn't like to analyse situations in the way I do). We were both calm and I made clear it is BOTH of us, and whenever DP said "but you do X..." if it was true, I agreed, so it was a very civil discussion.

We told each other what it is that winds the other up. For me, it is when DP thinks the entire thing is my fault, regardless of how he's contributed by overreacting. For DP, it is when he goes upstairs to stop a fight brewing and I follow him, because to his credit he usually goes off and sulks rather than shouts at me and when it is a shouty fight, it is usually me that's made it that way (but often because of things he's done/said!!).

So this really worked for us. I said to DP that the arguments/our tempers is the only reason that I would ever have doubts about spending my life with him (we're not yet married), and I think that hammered it home to him.

Since then we have tried not to do the things we outlined above, and it's been much better. If it's escalating, we just walk away and talk about it when calmer. It's not ideal as we still spend maybe two evenings a month not speaking while we calm down, but we're much happier for it!! I watch Sex and the City when this happens :D