anyone had experience of partner with 'oppositional defiance disorder'??

[anynamesleft]

Hi,

I've been researching child behaviour to try to support my 5yo in managing their emotions and came across 'oppositional defiance disorder' (I've cut and pasted a description of ODD below).

It didn't really fit with my child's behaviour but DID resonate with some of my partner's behaviour which I find difficult to deal with. It's as if when I have expectations of him (in contributing to / participating in things as part of the family) he sees me as an 'authority figure' to which his natural response is to be defiant. It's pretty unremitting and v wearing.

Has anyone had experience of an adult / partner with ODD? Can it be an adult condition? What's the best way of responding to them?

Symptoms
The key behavioural symptoms of ODD are negative, hostile and defiant behaviour. For ODD to be diagnosed, symptoms have to have been present for at least six months and involve four or more of the following:
often loses temper
often argues with adults
often actively defies or refuses to comply with adults? requests or rules
often deliberately annoys people
often blames others for his mistakes or misbehaviour
often touchy or easily annoyed by others
often angry and resentful
often spiteful or vindictive.
To be classified as ODD, the behaviour also has to have caused a significant degree of disturbance to home, social or school life.

How does it cause problems?
For parents, having a child with ODD can be very difficult. ODD children can vary from being mildly oppositional to always being hostile.
A child with ODD will:
deliberately take the most difficult path, eg to say ?no? on principle
enjoy challenging and arguing with people
refuse to do what he?s told.
It's common for a child with ODD to blame everyone else for his problems, and at his worst he can be angry, spiteful and vindictive.
These types of problem behaviours are typically directed towards parents and teachers, plus others in authority. Coping with a consistently disruptive attitude can be extremely frustrating and physically, mentally and emotionally exhausting.

That paper is very interesting, garlic. But I note that the study found that all the people (all on the autism spectrum) who also tested positive for personality disorders were in either the A or C cluster of personality disorders.

"Narcissistic twat" is in the cluster B (Narcissistic PD, Borderline PD, Antisocial PD, and Histrionic PD)

I don't know where I'm going with this. I think to this conclusion: Narcissistic twats act like twats because it suits them. It seems to be a common thread in cluster B disorders. Autism spectrum people don't.

OP, I would really echo HereIGo's checklist to see whether your partner really can't help what he does.

That description is my friends son to a tee. The parents are in denial and ignoring the behaviours.

I was a bit about that, Puppy, and had actually been looking for some papers I read earlier, which correlated Asperger's with Cluster B disorders including similar brain function anomalies. That one made more sense to me instinctively. On an everyday level, I think it's useful to identify patterns of behaviours in adults - as we know - but not especially helpful to worry about the cause, unless it's a curable physical condition.

Also echoing HIG's thumbnail checklist, OP.

garlic, puppy and hereigo - I'm not expecting to be able to change DP's behaviour overnight, but presumably there are ways of engaging with people with AS/PD that avoid 'pressing their buttons' and help get a more positive response.

puppy I'm liking the use of 'narcissistic twat' as a clinical term ... it could catch on!

I suppose where I'm coming from is that although things are unclear I would prefer to think he's not behaving this way through choice. If I try using techniques / approaches that are appropriate for AS/PD and they make no difference then I'll have to tackle it from the 'narcissistic twat' standpoint.

To be honest it's not a great choice to have to make - do you want to think of your DP as having a form of personality disorder or choosing to behave unreasonably

Thanks for bringing this out, HereIGo. I had read OP's last post too quickly and thought she said:

"If I try using techniques / approaches that are appropriate for AS and they make no difference then I'll have to tackle it from the 'narcissistic twat' standpoint. "

I didn't see the conflation of AS and PD!

I agree that while one can manage a relationship with an AS partner, the only appropriate "technique" vis-a-vis a personality disordered partner who is nasty to you is to leave.

what about Avoidant Personality disorder? How many boxes does he tick for that?

Just a thought - have you looked at Eric Berne's games theory and transactional analysis, in particular his ideas about parent/adult/child roles?

It sounds like one possibility is that you've got stuck in a rut with your DH of relating to each other as Parent:Child rather than Adult:Adult, which would naturally cause him to become oppositional.

Rather than attempting to ascribe your DH a label, could this behaviour pattern be a problem that's arisen specifically because of the way you and he relate to each other? You said he's able to relate to people fine at work...

(Just as an aside, not at all insinuating it's your fault he's behaving this way, some people cast themselves in the 'child' role, thus pushing others into 'parent' role, and then act up in defiance of it because they somehow gain from this. I'm paraphrasing but Berne explains it convincingly.)

Thanks puppy, since posting I've had a better look at conduct and other disorders and realised they don't really fit at all - I'd picked them up from earlier responses commenting that ODD really only applies to children and would then translate into PD in adults. So I think we may be talking AS (.... although there's still the 'narcissistic twat' option of course ).

Nanetta, I don't think 'avoidant personality' applies here. If anything DP has a bulletproof ego and bags of confidence, although minimal social filters.

Quodlibert - TA is a really interesting angle from which to look at this. DP does have a general issue with 'authority figures' and defiance (often seemingly for defiance's sake) but also has the ability to socialise well and sustain long friendships, so maybe we're looking at some AS traits combined with a tendency to take on a 'child' role which I've been responding to as 'parent' ???????? (I dread to think what Freud would have to say about that ) I'll have to dig out my copy of 'I'm okay, you're okay' and see if anything fits.

Also, just wanted to say thanks to everyone for your insights - where else but Mumsnet could you get such great and perceptive support!

Oh its exhausting to deal with someone with this, absolutely soul destroying. Its what caused me to leave my ex in the end. The issues with authority, and authoritive women so meant nothing I said he would listen too because he automatically see's it as being told what to do. Then he goes into being defiant - lasts months! It caused issues at both my children schools. Constant removal by dad because the teachers are womem an tell him to put our son in and obviously, they arent the right gender so he only does it more. Its relentless. I left him after 13 years, 13 miserable years where I told him hes got somthing wrong with him. He went councelling and CBT therapy, to no avail! He been told what his issue is, but when he having a episode he dont recognise it and everyone, kids included do not come out of it unscathed. His parents said he always been like it, just defiant. Caused damaged to cars growing up and did it for the kicks. Damaged schools during the night. Again alone. For no reason it not like to impress friends, just for his own benifit. They wont change. Because its a actual problem that gone undiagnosed for years and so deep imbeeded in their psychy. Best thing I did was leave him.

I can't tell if people in this thread are aware or not that ODD is a form of Autism.

Not an adult but I worked with a child (5 yrs) who had diagnosed ODD. One of the most unsettling experiences of my career (even more than supporting children who had experienced sexual abuse). He was violent and you just couldn’t have a normal conversation with him. He spent most of our assessment in a corner occasionally coming close to throw a shoe at me. Was violent to family pets, etc. I have always wondered what happened when he grew up (would now be in his 20s). It was like he was completely devoid of the usual human range of emotions and was just constantly angry. I suspect some of those children (without interventions) grow up to be narcissists, but that’s just my own completely personal opinion.

This thread is ten years old.

My ds too fits this profile.

Shit. It sounds terrible into adulthood.

@MooncupGoddess

Is he, perhaps, just a narcissistic twat?

Haha, exactly. I don't get why some people have to medicalise and unnecessarily complicate everything when it's simply someone choosing to treat others badly, plain and simple.

Yes sorry that my fault 😂 recently been on a couse to coparent & this issue came up so been looking into it, our children are quiet young so I have many years of this wanted to know what I can do, what to expect, because nothing ive tried in past has worked

@YarnOver

I can't tell if people in this thread are aware or not that ODD is a form of Autism.

@YarnOver ODD is often comorbid with ASD and ADHD, but I don't know it to be a form of ASD.

My son is 2e, gifted + ADHD (another typical combination), and at risk of ODD. He is not in the autism spectrum.

My ex is in his 30's, is there a chance its gone unnoticed? And is it somthing my children could develop? Ive read up on ODD - and this is more like him than I realised. He struggled with change, I thought he had control issues, which I think he does as he use to suffer badly with anxiety which has only got worse since we split. Hes erratic, hes taken 3 different people to court in the last 20 months. Then threatened our daughter school with board of governers because he feels hes the victim of sexism. He also put a seperarion agreement on me trying to stipulate me and the kids had to live alone and I werent to get married whilst he still on the joint mortgage. Hes really clever, in certain fields. Law and science. But lacks any common sence. Generally has no empathy. He struggles to see things from anyone elses perspective. There no telling him either. It like he gets in certain moods which lasts weeks to months an you can not snap him out of it. Apart of me feels sorry for him, but other times im on the recieving end of alot of his crap and makes it really hard to deal with. How do you even broach the subject? Do you or do you just let them carry on 🤷‍♀️

@fedupwiththeguy well not only did I not notice this is a ten year old thread I also wrote completely wrong. ODD is a condition in an of itself . I was thinking of Pathological Demand Avoidance, PDA, which is a form of Autism. I've just had surgery and wasn't thinking clearly!!!

Your partner just sounds like a typical narcissist to me (npd). A covert one maybe. Or similar. Nit a conduct disorder but a cluster b personality disorder.

Either way, dont put up with that shit in a partner. Leave!

@Umberellatheweatha i left 3 years ago, hes only got worse since I left him. Legal letters "breaching seperation agreement" since ive moved in with my new partner. I think its jealousy, but I have looked into narcassitic personality and he ticks a few boxes here. Hes coercive, financially abusive, economically abusive through mortgage but never physically abusive I do think hes got a few things going on because it not until you point it all out do you see the coggs going, but it still always someone else fault an he speaks fluent victimese. It just frustrating because hes been told his issues in CBT therapy about authority issues, but he dont change - thats a trait of narcassim I believe. But if he was autistic that would explain the lack of understanding & selfishness. I do genuienly believe hes oblivious to most of his behaviour. Its awful to try co-parent with him, especially when hes in these moods that ODD describes, last for months and is just erratic like hes out of control and doing things with no thought at all & everyone feels it, myself, the kids and the schools involved with our children. Its utter madness tbh I stand back an think wtf is he actually doing but I dont think he even knows when hes in that mind frame. I can only describe it as adult tantrum just less foot stomping and head thrashing.

Me too!

ZOMBIE THREAD

There's a subset of Autism that crosses over with ODD, it's called Pathological Demand Avoidance. It doesn't sound like he's Autistic, they're not really typical Autistic traits. But he might fit the PDA may fit the PDA subset.

Asperger's is no longer a diagnostic term in the new DSM5. Which is a good change given that doctor's treatment of disabled children. It's now all Autism Spectrum Disorder with functional levels.

A diagnosis is only useful for an adult if they're willing to engage and seek help with the issues. It doesn't sound like he would. Ross Greene's book the explosive child is good for kids with PDA and ASD, no idea if it would work on an adult. Reading up on PDA might provide some helpful techniques but most of the literature is aimed at a parent-child relationship.