Feeling a sad third place in DHs life....

[Slightlyfedup]

Name changed. Regular lurker and small time poster!
Been married nearly 11 years. 3 DC who are 7, 6 and 4. DH works in a very high powered job long hours and I am a SAHM since DS1 was born.
DH working practices have long been a bone of contention with us with periods of him trying and sometimes being able to moderate his hours, periods of complete insanity hours wise but mostly in between.
He regularly works a 60 hour week.
He used to work in London with a bitch of a commute but recently took on a different role which in theory sounded more attractive managing 5 offices, 2 within an hour of home and 3 further afield, although with his 'main base' 1.5 hours drive away. When he was offered the role he played it to me very much that he would be more in control of his hours and could be more flexible.
Suffice to say this has not happened.
Next week on Weds DD starts school. She is my last to go and I am feeling a little wobbly TBH especially as as a SAHM everyone keeps asking me 'what will you do with yourself' which is meant kindly but just makes me feel redundant. I also have 2 evening meetings for voluntary work I do, both of which could be very stressful. I have arranged outside babysitting for both.
Last night he announces that he will be away overnight on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday nights, and at a dinner on Thursday until late. All these events are indifferent cities across his patch.
The DC (and I) will not see him from Sun evening until Friday night (kids prob Sat am) and although this is not unusual I cannot believe he has not taken any account of his DD starting school. She is very nervous about it.
He is popping back Thursday afternoon to change and get a car to his dinner when I asked if he could manage to make school pick up he got shorty and said it depended on his phone calls.
Gosh this is long sorry. I am trying to encapsulate in this one incident where I feel the DC and I come in his life. Second and me a lowly third.
I have tried to talk to him before about these issues but get no where. I have mostly come to accept it but sometimes weeks such as next week throw me. He has known DDs start date sine June... He is incapable of saying no at work but happy to let me and more importantly the DC down.
I have offered to go back to work so he can down size his job but ultimately he doesn't want to. There is no way I can work with him working these sorts of hours.
He has the ultimate get out clause that he has to work so hard to earn the money. It's patently not true as so many other men appear to work the system in their favour.
So anyway no real question there is there? Just a general moan.. Don't know where to go from here. I sometimes think I would be better off on my own.

OP, I've been in your situation. I'm now a single parent, so can see it from both sides of the fence. I really urge you to tackle this, as ime it doesn't get any better, and it's easy to end up living separate lives.

I've never been as lonely as I was with XH, when he worked 7 days a week, and I was at home with 2 tiny dc's. He had a totally separate life, one of corporate entertainment -seeing all the latest shows in London, the best seats at any sporting event, high powered meetings with movers and shakers, and ultimately 2 or 3 affairs. He turned from an ambitious alpha male into a selfish monster who had no respect for me, or my contribution to his career and the household. He barely knew his dc's. I couldn't go back to work as I couldn't have coped with the hours without any help with the dc's.

The good news about divorcing a high earning alpha male is that financially, if you have a decent lawyer, you'll probably be ok. And now I even have time to myself (and for city breaks abroad with DP ) now XH has the dc's a weekend or two a month. Much better, much easier. The dc's are fine too, it's less disruptive for them then him never being properly present for them.

And how I wish I'd flushed the blackberry down the toilet. Be aware of how he uses this btw, any secretive behaviour is to be seen as a big alarm bell.

I'm not suggesting you divorce him, by the way!!! Just, don't be scared that you'll be left penniless if it does get that far. I hope you can sort it out though.

Thanks goatinacoat TBH I have thought about splitting. I really don't want to as it is the thing DH and I agree on most that as children of divorced parents we don't want it for our kids. Although sometimes his actions would be contrary to this wish! He hasn't had an affair ...the love affair he has is with his job pure and simple
I need to tackle this again...

No, splitting isn't an easy option, that's for sure. Is he too alpha to consider joint counselling? Or could you maybe go alone to get some support to deal with this?

He's choosing to spend 5 nights a week at the gym instead of with you or the dcs?!!

How can you not all feel totally rejected?

OP, the half marathon thing rings a bell - did you post a thread about this before? If not there was a different thread that was very similar that I remember reading, and also identifying with.

I think it is very selfish of him to be training for a marathon or half marathon or whatever in these circumstances. Yes, fair enough if he wants to make some tme for physical fitness, it's important, but to dedicate (presumably) an hour to that every night when his wife is sitting at home wishing he was there for her and the kids...it's just not cool IMO.

You say you've talked to him about your feelings, but in what way? Have you made clear that this isn't just something you feel annoyed about and like to moan about, but something that is actually making you genuinely miserable and leading you to question your relationship?

"He's choosing to spend 5 nights a week at the gym"

That's fucking outrageous!

So, what little free time he does have, he chooses to spend at the gym.

How can you put up with it? Seriously, I would have buried him under the porch by now.

If I could, I would spend most evenings a week out doing my activities; I have a lot of interests. But I work full-time, as does my DH. This means that I respect my children and DH's need to see me in the evening. So I compromise and only go out 2 evenings and one weekend morning a week.

Your DH is taking the piss. He has no respect for you or his children. As you say in your OP, you are secondary and tertiary in his life. But not behind his job. He has placed you all firmly behind himself, the arrogant selfish prick.

I agree with goatinacoat.

It is all weel to spend 60+ hours working, then going to the gym 5 times a week. Spending th weekend at home with his family but still expecting everything to organized for him. And being glued to his mobile.
He is reminding me of my dad who had a PA at work and ended up expecting my mum to behave like a PA too, preparing everything for him but also him giving order and not making any effort at all. The best example being 'Can you bring me a cup of tea? when said cup was on the table 2 feet away...

But where is his input in the family and the relationship? I mean not the financial input (that doesn't buy happiness) but the emotional input?
When you stop giving your attention to a relationship, it dies.

Slightlyfedup, have you talked to him coming not from the angle of 'I would like to see you more. You areworking too much' but from the angle of 'What are both putting into the relationship?' What does he think he is doing for his family?

"Your DH is taking the piss."

Yes! ['grin]

Come on Slightlyfedup - it's time you walled him up!

I had some sympathy for your DH until you said he goes to the gym 5 times a week. He's basically leading his own life. I can understand why some people object to you being compared to a single parent but I think in some ways you have it worse than a single parent in that technically you're in a relationship so you can't see anyone new, your DH doesn't take the kids every second weekend so you don't get a set amount of time on your own, and you have the added insult of being ignored by someone who is supposed to love you. In practical ways your life is easier than that of a single parent but the emotional element is much much tougher. Time for something big to change I think OP.

I feel I should clarify he doesn't spend five nights at the gym. He runs once per day at weekends for at least an hour plus showering etc time. Usually when DC in bed but sometimes in the day. He goes to the gym about three times a week. At least once in the evening the other times usually before work.
That is a bit of a bug bear for me though as he is happy to be 'late' (by which I mean 8.30 rather than 7.30) to work for the gym but not for any other reason. So not for DC fathers day breakfast for example.
I don't know I just think his priorities are all wrong but I can't make him see that. Last weekend we had a group camping trip arranged with three other families. I got everything ready, drove the trailer there, put up two tents (with the other husbands' help) sorted everything out etc. He promised he would leave early from his office. He didn't leave early. He turned up at gone seven.... Saying he had had too much to finish off at work. But he had managed to go to the gym before work...you do the maths.....oh and then we get home after two nights camping in the mud with all the washing that means and produces a sweaty gym kit from his car....lovely...
It was not a high point!

Slightlyfedup I just want to say you are not alone. My DH's career has 'taken off' in the last few years (we used to earn the same, now he earns 4-5 times more than me!) and I find myself sometimes doing 'lone parenting' with the children for days on end and wonder if this is what I signed on for when I got married. To be fair, I think your DH is quite a few years down the road from my DH but I can see where we are heading...

And it's not easy as financially, we are doing pretty damn well in this current economic climate but the trade-off does make me wonder if and when it (and if!) will all become too much. I, like you, enjoy spending time with my DCs and realise I am very fortunate to be in the position where I can choose to work in a part-time job I enjoy (as opposed to a job I need to work in). But the price we pay is a stressed husband etc (and who wouldn't be if they had to carry the financial burden of raising a family). Then I have days like today, where we had a really wonderful day as a family and I think 'yes, it's all worth it...' Until the next time..

He couldn't go to the gym five times a week in the evenings as his job doesn't allow it...

It doesn't matter that he's not going in the evenings slightly, it matters that he is finding at least five hours a week to do something other than work, then he's telling you that he doesn't have time for you and the children. As you clearly know from what you said in your last post the "I don't have time" excuse is bullshit. 5 hours a week for a hobby is a lot My DH only works about 35 hours a week and he spends maximum two hours a week on his hobby as his reasoning is that he would rather spend time with me and DS.

I'm not disagreeing with everyone who says he's taking the piss etc but having been in the exact same situation, I also saw where my DH was coming from (in hindsight after counselling).

He was under pressure to pay the mortgage (or at least he saw it that way). And he felt that if he stepped off the career gas even for a second, he'd lose out and in some way put us all at risk. But putting us financially at risk was only half of it. Putting his own career and all he'd achieved was the other half. He loved his job and didn't want to jeapardise t.

In addition, my DH went to the gym all the time and I could see why - he worked bloody hard and had a long commute and needed some downtime. i could see why he'd want that.

But what he wasn't seeing is what I wanted and needed. i.e. companionship, support, some time out too, the feeling that I wasn't in this parenting lark alone. And what I felt was that he got to put himself first while I never had that priviledge. What builds up is mega, mega resentment. And the only way to clear it is to discuss it. But when you have a man who is too busy/tired/attached to his blackberry to talk, it doesn't work and your communication translates as nagging, which makes him even more keen to spend time away from home.

after reading your post today I asked my husband what his trigger was - what made him realise that things had to change, because god knows I'd been trying to change things for years. He said it was multiple reasons:

• he'd got to a point in his career where he felt more secure and felt he could ask to work from home
• the kids got to a point where they were more interesting (sounds brutal but let's face it, babies are boring and if you're an alpha man, which would you choose - a night schmoozing clients or staying in to play peepo. I wish my DH could have loved every minute of the baby phase, but good grief, I didn't and regularly wished I could escape so I sort of get where he's coming from)
• he realised that his lifestyle was making me unhappy. And me being unhappy meant that he was unhappy as home life wasn't a good place. He realised that he could live with life like that forever and potentially get divorced or he could change.

We are by no means perfect now, but things have improved massively. I think you need to lay your cards on the table. Tell him what you need from him. Ask him if he will go to a therapist with you (it really does provide a good neutral place to clear the air). Think about the alternative - would life genuinely be better without him there? Ask him whether his life would be better without you there? Explain in very clear terms that while you deperately don't want to split up, things have to change. Finally, have a plan as to what you'd like to do. Tell him that you will be going to college/get a job/volunteer - that you are also entitled to a life.

Fab advice from joshandjamie

Oh - and I still wish my DH would spend more time with the kids, not because I ask him to, but because he wants to. He still views it as a chore. You know why? Because they're children and they don't follow his commands like his work colleagues do. And they make a mess in his ordered world (slight OCD tendencies) and he has had zero experience of kids being an only child with no young cousins. He just doesn't have a clue what to do with them. It's only by me forcing encouraging him to take them bike riding etc is he starting to realise that life can actually be fun instead of goal oriented and work focused. In my heart I wish he was more spontaneously keen to be with them, but I've come to terms with who he is and how much he can give. And where we are now is amillion times better than where we were (which it sounds as though where you are now)

"Oh - and I still wish my DH would spend more time with the kids, not because I ask him to, but because he wants to. He still views it as a chore. You know why? Because they're children and they don't follow his commands like his work colleagues do. And they make a mess in his ordered world (slight OCD tendencies) "

You are talking about my DH, joshandjamie.

Jokes aside, I think you are very wise.

Slightly fwiw I think you need to tackle him about this again. My dad was similar (apart from the gym part - work was more important than exercise). We NEVER got on when i was a kid (interestingly he and sis got on well - she is outgoing and lots of fun). Fair to say I despised him when I was young - he was a total workaholic, even during holidays etc he'd fine phone boxes to contact the office. Stress induced tempers were always directed at me (v scared of him as a result). Our relationship improved when I was 23 - now dh and I bought a house that needed a lot of work and dad even took time off work to help. For the first time in my life i felt important enough for him to want to build a relationship. We get on brilliantly now, but he told me recently that he had been a shit father and asked my forgiveness . Sorry for the rambling post, but something has got to change - both he and your dci will regret it if he continues putting his family second

You've had some great advice, Op. I just wanted to add that your dc will become more aware and start to resent their father not being around much as they get older. No amount of money or career success can make up for missing out so much of his children's lives.

Sadly, someone I know who was in a similar situation to the op said that her dc hardly noticed when the exh moved out.