ExMIL Pressuring me to let Ex see DD - I don't know what to do

[muminthecity]

DD is 6 in a few weeks and hasn't had any contact with her father for over 3 years. He was an awful partner to me, emotionally and physically abusive. I left him when DD was around a year old, after a particularly nasty episode where he kicked me across the room and punched me in the face several times.

Despite this, I continued to make it possible for him to see DD, arranging regular contact. He continually failed to show up, let her down at the last minute and was generally crap with her. He never really had much of a bond with her due to not spending any time with her. During the first 3 years of DD's life, his contact with her was off and on. He once went 6 months without seeing her, and at other times would want to see her every other day. He also constantly tried to persuade me to take him back.

3 years and 3 months ago, he had just come back into her life after a year of no contact and things were going relatively well, he was seeing her once a week and seemed to be making an effort with DD. However, after a couple of months of this he started trying to get me back again. I had several late night phone calls (sometimes at 3 or 4am), some were him declaring his love for me, others were nasty and abusive, name calling and wishing me and various members of my family dead. We argued about it, I started turning my phone off every night, this made him furious and I'd have hundreds of nasty messages every morning.

The last time I spoke to him was one morning in May 2008. He wanted to see DD that day but I refused as I was ill. He turned really vile, called me the most awful names imaginable and said some nasty things about DD as well. He said he wanted nothing more to do with me "or that fucking kid" ever again.

I took him at his word, changed my phone number and never contacted him again. However, I continued living at the same address for the next 2 years, so if he had desperately wanted contact (as he now says he did) he could have come to our house, or written to us. He never did.

His mother stayed in close contact with DD throughout all of this, she visits fairly regularly (every couple of months), buys her lots of presents and takes her for days out. For the last few years, she has never mentioned her son (my ex), he has always been the elephant in the room that neither of us talk about.

However, over the last few weeks, ExMIL has stepped up her contact with DD, seeing her more often and making more of an effort with me as well. She has now started to talk about Ex. She feels that I am being unfair, that he should be able to see DD, and that she would arrange it, he would see DD at her house and I wouldn't need to have any contact with him. She says he wants to rebuild a relationship with DD.

DD talks about her dad constantly. She has vague memories of him, and says she really wants to see him. I think she just likes the idea of having a dad, and is curious about him. I don't think it's because she loves or misses him, she never knew him enough to! ExMIL has heard DD talking about her dad and thinks I'm being unkind, that if it's what DD wants, I should let her see him.

I don't trust him in the slightest. I have given him numerous chances and he has always let her down. I have no doubt that he would do the same again, only it would be much harder for DD now that she's old enough to really understand. I also know how nasty and violent he can be and I don't want my DD exposed to that.

I would be grateful for any opinions. What would you do in my position? And what would you say to DD when she asks for her dad?

Sorry this is so long, thanks for making it this far!

If he really wants to see his DD he can sort it out and go via a contact centre. I'd guess he wouldn't bother TBH.

Don't let the ex-MIL get involved.

The problem with asking ex MIL if she woudl feel bad about having the child's feelings hurt, is that she sounds as if she has been so affected by the violence that is obviously present in her life, that she would have skewed perceptions of how harmful hurt to a child's feelings is. People who are used to having their feelings dismissed, tend to also dismiss the feelings of other powerless people, like women and children and identify with the powerful. So ex MIL feels compassion and sympathy for her DS because he can't see his DD, but probably less compassion and sympathy for the OP or even herself as the victim of violence and with DD as the potential victim of emotional abuse, because identifying with the abuser is the default position for her.

Hmm, tricky one. it doesn't sound like you are projecting your own (presumed but entirely justifiable) hatred, and you are trying to do the best for your DD - can't be easy to keep your feelings out of it!

The best thing for any child is to know both of its parents, provided that doesn't cause risk or harm obviously, and with that in mind I think you need to give the guy one more chance. Maybe he's grown up, maybe he's realised the error of his ways. If so then great, your DD can have a relationship with her Dad which will benefit her. Previous history would suggest that this is not certain, and obviously your first priority is to keep DD safe. Meeting at the exMIL's house is not enough, it needs to be in a situation where the exDP can be restrained if he was to get violent. A supervised contact centre sounds good, and it shouldn't be just the first time, it should be every time for the foreseeable future until you are happy he poses no risk (or he loses interest).

If you were to resist and it would go to court he will almost certainly get access of some kind, and unless he has been charged and convicted of violence towards you or his mother then there's a good chance he could get unsupervised access, which would be a bad thing. You should dictate the terms here, don't assume a court will automatically see your side.

If you did decide to give him a chance I would make it clear to him that this is is one and only chance and that you're doing it for DD, not for him.

Ahh muminthecity, it appears from his name that you've met my exH

I simply do not understand why men who are violent are considered worthy of being given "another chance" over and over and over again, at the expense of women and children.

This man has given precisely zero indication that he has reformed. A man who had reformed, would acknowledge the wrong he had done and the truth that he had lost all rights to have a part in his DD's life, but would like a part anyway because perhaps he could henceforth play a positive part in her life and that that was his sole intention.

He has done nothing of the sort. He has continued to behave exactly the classic way abusers behave - using his mother to try to manipulate the OP into doing what he wants. Trying to regain control. He has shown himself to be the same abusive man he was when he beat up his mother and beat up the OP. This is not someone who should be given a chance. The OP and her DD should be given a chance - to live a life free from his toxic, controlling presence.

HappyHubbie What a load of old tosh! Why should the OP go to the trouble to give the ex (did you read the OP in any detail? the constant abuse over the phone? Let alone the DV?) the opportunity to harm their DD. This man has no boundaries when it comes to battering women and the only reason he hasn't battered their DD yet is because so far he hasn't been interested in her enough to bother battering her. I tell you what, let's give him one last chance to see where in fact he does draw the line in terms of who in his immediate family he won't batter? After all, it's only an 8 year old girl's physical and emotional welfare we're risking here isn't it?

Chap I didn't think you were projecting! I thought your point was good - if the ex is bothered about contact (and in accordance with a lot of other posters) he will pursue through the correct legal process as you did. Am sorry to hear you've had a difficult time getting contact with your DCs.

OP - offer contact at supervised centres. He can organise. Sit down and list all DV/malicious incidents and abusive action. Go to a solicitor for a free half hour consultation with your list/chronology.

Do not agree to xMIL's request at all - I would follow ShoutyHamster's advice with regard to speaking to xMIL. Also a poster posted about getting some counselling/advice on how to support your DD which sounded spot on so you might want to make enquiries/set something up to help you support DD come what may.

Thank you to everyone else who has contributed to this thread. Sorry I haven't been back for a while, but my internet has been down. I am off on holiday today, coming back Friday. When I get back, I will have another read through and a proper read of the links provided. I haven't heard anything from MIL yet and am unlikely to now until we get back on Friday.

Thanks again so so much for all of your help and support.

Wrecka Read my post again, I wasn't proposing that there be any risk to the DD, quite the opposite, in fact I suggested exactly the same solution as you did. Why should the OP go to the trouble? Because kids ideally need two parents. It's not about the OP it's about the DD.

People do reform, men do grow up (sometimes). Hope for the best, plan for the worst - let the DD see her Dad, but in a way that cannot cause her any harm, ie at a contact centre, not at the OP's house or the exMIL's. We actually agree on this.

I agree though, he sounds horrible, and if I was the OP I'd want nothing to do with him.

"Because kids ideally need two parents"

Ideally being the key word here.

The DD would benefit from having 2 normal, caring, loving, supportive parents. any child would.

As it is, she hasn't got that. she hasn't even got the hope of ever having it.

Her father is a bully, a violent man with no boundaries, an entitlement to belt, punch and beat literally anyone he chooses to. And he HAS DONE!

The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

It would either only be a matter of time until he turns on his own daughter, or if he didn't raise a hand to her physically, the potential for him to raise his hand would be forever a threat hanging over her, AND without doubt he'd hurt her emotionally, why? because that is how he operates. He doesn't/won't do any better, because he doesn't want to. He is entititled to rule all those around him by literally any means possible. He IS a dangerous man to anyone and everyone in contact with him.

The MIL is not a responsible person to police this reunion either as she is blinded to the evil in her own son, despite his battering of her.

Happy Hubbie I get where you're coming from - no need to nit pick everything he is saying peeps, he is giving his opinion and its hardly extreme - helpful for OP to have male POV also.

LOL assuming Happyhubbie is male of course!

Poor you mitc. We had a similar situation and I dont know whether its useful for you or not, but thought I could perhaps tell you what the court system decided in our case as it seemed a good compromise. Like you, my XH had been violent.

The judge said that any contact should only be initiated by my DD and must be at her pace. She could write to him/send him drawings etc (like you there hadnt been any contact for several years) in the first instance, and only then he could reply. He was allowed to send gifts via a third party at Christmas and Birthdays, but not to hand them over directly. If this all went well and DD was happy with the level of contact, it could then move to regular phone calls - again only if DD wished. The idea was that if that too went well, then contact could progress to a contact centre.

As it turned out, my DD didnt take contact past the letter stage, and actually gave that up too. Maybe that wont happen in your case though.

It did seem a sensible way of trying to re-establish contact, and I was happy to give it a try for DDs sake. All the best.

What herhissy said..

Immature selfish twats sometimes grow up.
Abusive bullies don't ever really change. He will cause the little girl no end of emotional grief and the threat of violence will always be there.

Follyfoot, thankgoodness you had a sensible judge x

"People do reform, men do grow up (sometimes). "

Yes. But when they do, they give indications that they have done so. They apologise for their past behaviour. They acknowledge the harm they have done. They seek to make amends and they understand that they have lost any rights they might once have had and that any privileges given to them now are just that - privileges, which they have to earn, they're not there by right, and they can be taken away again if they fall back to their previous abusive behaviour.

This man has done none of that. Which indicates that he hasn't reformed. He is still the same abuser that he always was and the exhortation to give men like this a second (or third, or fourth, or twentieth chance) is one of the reasons why two women a week are murdered by their partners or exes, and one of the reasons so many estranged fathers are given the opportunity to murder their children. We should be much more demanding of abusive parents, that they actively show how they have changed, because too many women and children are dying at the hands of these men and we're unwilling to look at why. We give them too many chances on the basis of no evidence that they have earned those chances.

"WibblyBibble I didn't think I was projecting my past relationship?

I wan't violent towards my children; nor was this git, who is - FWIW - a real lowlife. I went to lawyers; he could."

OneChap, she never said anything about your being violent to your children. She said she assumed you'd never been violent to your wife.

A man who has beaten his wife and beaten his mother does not have a good track record for anger-management around women in his family who behave in ways he does not like. He has shown himself to be inconsistent and disinterested. I know many women are vile to exes after relationship breakdown and use their kids as weapons/want their exes out of their own lives and don't give a stuff about their kids' own needs and best interests, but OP does not sound like one.

This man sounds toxic and if that child were mine, the father would require court action before he ever had another opportunity to play fast and loose with her security and sense of worth. Let alone a first opportunity to beat her.

" let the DD see her Dad, but in a way that cannot cause her any harm, ie at a contact centre, not at the OP's house or the exMIL's."

There are other ways of causing harm than beating. My own father swanned in and out of my life at whim when I was a child, viciously attacking my mother to me when at it, and the harm he did was incalculable. I broke all contact when I had my own child because my father is not someone I want in my kid's life. Absolutely, children are almost always better off with an imperfect parent than no parent at all. But an unreliable, erratic, inconsistent parent, with a history of violence and tendencies to stalk the mother? Not so much.

If this man had been a patient, loving, involved and engaged parent and all his bad behaviour were between him and the ex, I'd agree that it's not good enough. But I think there is a gross underestimate of the emotional harm that fathers who blow hot and cold do to their kids, who need consistent love and security to an unimaginably great degree.

perfectstorm

Ta.
I see.

I'd agree, let him go to court like I said I was going to... but she should be prepared to deal with the likely outcome he'll be granted some - albeit supervised - contact.

Oh, absolutely, but she's already repeatedly said he'd never bother with court because he just isn't that interested in his daughter - hence my thinking she's best off with a father who will just disappear at a whim.

There's also the issue that public funding for private law is being decimated - he'd need to be on a relatively low income to be entitled to any help at all in funding proceedings. While this is disgracefully unfair on all the great dads who have to bankrupt themselves just to see their kids every other weekend, it does make it even less likely in this instance.

HereBeBolloX your posts are absolutely spot on imo and those links are really great.

OP another one here who'd say absolutely no contact. I'd also work on diminishing contact with xMIL over time. Sadly her attitudes and family culture are likely to be misguided at the least and dangerous at the worst. Not something you really want your DD to be learning from her gran.

You have done that bravest of things and extricated yourself from a dv relationship. You have successfully achieved a peaceful and secure upbringing for your dd. It would be very sad if that were undermined by your xMIL.

I'd second giving the Lundy Bancroft book to xMIL in the hope that it will help her long-term. I wonder how safe the xMIL feels having contact with her son? Poor woman.

Do not let your DD see her "father". Explain why, in an age appropriate way.

I also agree with gradually reducing contact with the idiotic Grandmother. As Pickgo says, she's got attituded and ideas that I wouldn't want to risk my child picking up.

attitudes

I think it's sad that people are saying you should cut contact with the MiL. That's the kind of heartbreaking damage that family breakups do to innocent people. She is clearly a doting granny and it would be very cruel to both her and your daughter to cut that contact. I'm sure if you are firm in the decision you make and make it clear to her that you aren't prepared to negotiate further, she will understand it. Also, this child is old enough to ask for her grandmother and surely she doesn't need to lose more emotional stability. Family aren't always perfect, but as the OP is clearly trying to do, you have to work with what you have - yes, stop her seeing dangerous unreliable father - but just because granny is misguided and not perfect, she shouldn't be cut out.

I have similar problems with my xmil because she refuses to acknowledge that her precious son was abusive to me (and not just verbally, emotionally and financially, but physically as well towards the end in particular) so ALL my decisions which are made out of superior knowledge really (ie, knowing, accepting that he is a bully) are dismissed as hysterically, petty, malicious... blah blah blah.

Hmmm. She may be a doting granny waterrat, but she's not so doting that she's prepared to put her granddaughter's welfare about the wishes of her son.

Which is what children need - their needs to be put before the whims of adults.

I agree with you that it is very sad that this woman might have to at some point in the future be prevented from seeing her grandchild. But her wish to see her grandchild, does not trump the right of her grandchild, to be brought up in a functional, normal family and the grandmother is far from functional - she's still in denial about the violence that is the norm in her family. If she wants to be in her grandchild's life, then she has a choice - put her grandchild's needs first. If she gets cut out of her grandchild's life, it won't be because the OP is being nasty to her for the sake of being nasty, it will be because she has chosen to prioritise her son over her granddaughter. Horrible Hobson's Choice that poor woman may have to face, but if she choose wrongly, then she has to live with the consequences - the OP's priority has got to be the welfare of her child, not the wishes of her ex-MIL.

I agree. The child's right to a secure and stable upbringing should matter more than a violent adult's rights to anything at all. If the granny can't respect that, much less understand it, she has no role.

I am afraid I think that needs to be spelled out to her, or one of these days contact will be arranged on the sly, and will then be a fait accompli.