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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

ExMIL Pressuring me to let Ex see DD - I don't know what to do

75 replies

muminthecity · 26/08/2011 12:28

DD is 6 in a few weeks and hasn't had any contact with her father for over 3 years. He was an awful partner to me, emotionally and physically abusive. I left him when DD was around a year old, after a particularly nasty episode where he kicked me across the room and punched me in the face several times.

Despite this, I continued to make it possible for him to see DD, arranging regular contact. He continually failed to show up, let her down at the last minute and was generally crap with her. He never really had much of a bond with her due to not spending any time with her. During the first 3 years of DD's life, his contact with her was off and on. He once went 6 months without seeing her, and at other times would want to see her every other day. He also constantly tried to persuade me to take him back.

3 years and 3 months ago, he had just come back into her life after a year of no contact and things were going relatively well, he was seeing her once a week and seemed to be making an effort with DD. However, after a couple of months of this he started trying to get me back again. I had several late night phone calls (sometimes at 3 or 4am), some were him declaring his love for me, others were nasty and abusive, name calling and wishing me and various members of my family dead. We argued about it, I started turning my phone off every night, this made him furious and I'd have hundreds of nasty messages every morning.

The last time I spoke to him was one morning in May 2008. He wanted to see DD that day but I refused as I was ill. He turned really vile, called me the most awful names imaginable and said some nasty things about DD as well. He said he wanted nothing more to do with me "or that fucking kid" ever again.

I took him at his word, changed my phone number and never contacted him again. However, I continued living at the same address for the next 2 years, so if he had desperately wanted contact (as he now says he did) he could have come to our house, or written to us. He never did.

His mother stayed in close contact with DD throughout all of this, she visits fairly regularly (every couple of months), buys her lots of presents and takes her for days out. For the last few years, she has never mentioned her son (my ex), he has always been the elephant in the room that neither of us talk about.

However, over the last few weeks, ExMIL has stepped up her contact with DD, seeing her more often and making more of an effort with me as well. She has now started to talk about Ex. She feels that I am being unfair, that he should be able to see DD, and that she would arrange it, he would see DD at her house and I wouldn't need to have any contact with him. She says he wants to rebuild a relationship with DD.

DD talks about her dad constantly. She has vague memories of him, and says she really wants to see him. I think she just likes the idea of having a dad, and is curious about him. I don't think it's because she loves or misses him, she never knew him enough to! ExMIL has heard DD talking about her dad and thinks I'm being unkind, that if it's what DD wants, I should let her see him.

I don't trust him in the slightest. I have given him numerous chances and he has always let her down. I have no doubt that he would do the same again, only it would be much harder for DD now that she's old enough to really understand. I also know how nasty and violent he can be and I don't want my DD exposed to that.

I would be grateful for any opinions. What would you do in my position? And what would you say to DD when she asks for her dad?

Sorry this is so long, thanks for making it this far!

OP posts:
ShirleyKnot · 26/08/2011 18:21

Yes. That is much more appropriate! Seriously though, let him take you to court. It'll never ever happen.

crazyhead · 26/08/2011 19:16

What a horrible situation. If that was me I think I'd want to seek support from counselling or specialist agencies in the area - can the domestic violence charities help at all, or are there other people you could talk to?

Are there any ways that your ex could prove his commitment in a way that make it clear to you he had grown up and changed in any way, and that which therefore would benefit your daughter? Could you for instance ask for your ex to commit to keeping contact with your daughter for a year with a weekly phone call/letter, and then go to supervised visits after that period? Does the guy even manage a birthday card?

Surely your MIL would understand that some commitment of that sort was a reasonable thing to expect from a violent and unpredictable man - she can be that doe-eyed about her awful son, surely!

Unlikely many people here I am really not experienced at this, but I felt very sorry for you - how crap to have this on you after bravely getting out of the situation in the first place

muminthecity · 26/08/2011 19:34

Thanks crazyhead. He has never sent any birthday/christmas cards, up until her 5th birthday where she received a necklace and a card which was quite clearly written in MIL's handwriting. I'm 99% sure that it was MIL who bought the necklace as well.

MIL absolutely will not understand. She suffered DV for 27 years from her ex husband (my ex's father) and sees it as a normal part of life. She knows what he did to me but said at the time that we (he and I) are "as bad as each other" and that I was "winding him up."

Whichever way this goes, she will never be on my side, we are highly likely to fall out over it, unfortunately Sad.

OP posts:
muminthecity · 26/08/2011 19:36

Oh and with regard to charities/counsellors etc, I'd really rather not. I hate talking about all this, and don't see why I should have to drag it all up again. DD and I have moved on, I don't want to go back to feeling like shit just because he's decided to walk back into our lives on a whim.

OP posts:
HappyCamel · 26/08/2011 19:42

I was that kid, years ago. I'd say no. If he's been violent to family members then and abusive then he isn't going to be a positive influence on her. He could be dangerous. Be upfront with MIL, tell her you think it's too risky and it isn't up for discussion.

You're her mum, you are responsible for keeping her safe. My mum didn't, she obeyed the contact order; we both have to live with the consequences of that.

muminthecity · 26/08/2011 19:51

Thank you HappyCamel, interesting to hear it from the other point of view. I'm sorry you went through it Sad. Do you think your life would have been better without your dad in it? Or do you think you'd have constantly wondered about him and felt you were missing out on something? Sorry for being nosey, feel free to ignore me!

OP posts:
HappyCamel · 26/08/2011 19:59

As soon as I had the chance I dropped contact with him. A few mistaken reunions, when I found my independence at uni, taught me I was better without him.

My dad has bipolar, he is capable of being lovely and capable of being very inappropriate, impulsive and violent. He often won't take his tablets.

I think it's hard for you because your daughter may ask for contact, but you don't want to put her in a position where she says 'daddy did xxx, I don't want to see him any more". You want to prevent that happening, which means dealing with her curiosity.

Now I have a tiny daughter of my own. My mum and I have an incredibly close relationship and I admire her more than ever for bringing me up alone. I'm going to tell my DD that her granddad is not very well and can be very angry so it's better not to see him.

I hope that helps. I'm happy to answer questions if I can help.

babyhammock · 26/08/2011 20:36

Why is it almost always considered by courts best for the child to have contact with an abusive parent. Children have a right to have a happy abuse free life (which incldes their primary carer not being abused too) and role models around them that enable them to go on to lead happy adult lives. Abusive men aren't good influences on their children.Think how many lives have been screwed up by the influence of abusive parents on their children.

He was extremely violent to you when DD was a baby. A child seeing their mum threatened verbally or physically is absolutely awful for them and causes all kinds of damage, infact similar problems to if they were actually abused themselves.

Personally I don't think abusive men can change esp after a childhood full of hardwiring the wrong way like your ex by his father.

He wasn't interested in DD then and still isn't, other than a 'play thing' or to get to you.

Tell MIL to drop it x

cestlavielife · 26/08/2011 20:36

hmm difficult one - maybe i would say to MIL -
if he realy wants to recbuild relationship it msut start with indirect octact letters, psotcards, etc for period of months- he can send these to MIL house.

then could start skype at MIL house.

contact - i would say contact centre as you dont trust MIL enough to properly supervise. but that may involve costs etc.

i like the line that he "not very well and can be very angry so it's better not to see him." and that when she older it might be possible but not right now.

ShoutyHamster · 26/08/2011 22:01

If you are highly likely to fall out about it, I would take a more detailed and harder line with MIL now, in the hope that she will choose not to fall out with you about it. Make her realise what she has to lose.

You are right, of course. He sounds a potentially grave danger - at best, someone simply waiting to let her down. When she's older, she can choose for herself - at 8, she needs protecting more than anything else.

Make it clear to MIL that if he wanted to arrange contact at a centre, then you would support it fully. When she starts to complain and wheedle, sit her down and remind her of the time he beat her up. Yes, his own mother. And the times he beat you up - his wife. Make it absolutely clear that there is no way on earth that you will run the risk of him hurting your DD in any way, and if she were to start suggesting that he wouldn't do anything like that, you reply - if you think that that is a risk worth taking - just think of what that says about how you feel about your granddaughter. If he ever hurt or frightened her whilst in your care, that would be the last time you ever saw her. Do you want to do that, risk that, for the sake of someone who doesn't really give two hoots about you, me, or DD? For another burst of contact that would come to an end in six months, a year, leaving a damaged child and more hurt all round?

Ultimately, you can't stop her falling out with you - and, extremely sad as it would be, if she chooses in the end to 'side' with her waster of a son (the son of a waster father, by the sound of it) that is her decision.

But don't let it make YOU deviate from your path. As you said - you've moved on. If the choice is between continuing on that path, towards a happy life for you both and a contented, secure childhood for DD, and stopping short, going backwards, taking your DD back into that abusive situation -all to maintain a relationship with one person - I know what I'd choose.

muminthecity · 26/08/2011 23:05

Thank you all, I truly appreciate you all taking the time to help me.

Shoutyhamster - That is a brilliant and thoughtful post, thank you.

I will keep coming back to this thread when MIL tries to wear me down.

OP posts:
babyhammock · 26/08/2011 23:36

These 2 links are quite good for info on how witnessing domestic violence affects children:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_domestic_violence_on_children
www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfo/mentalhealthandgrowingup/domesticviolence.aspx

ninani · 27/08/2011 00:10

Maybe exMIL thinks that by him initiating some contact he could claim shared respinsibility because "you see, it's both of us sharing the job". Because as things are he has no contact.

If he is violent I would definitely say NO.

HerBeBolloX · 27/08/2011 00:22

Can I suggest that you read Lundy Bancroft's Why does he do that?

Also here's his site with some articles which may help you. [http://www.lundybancroft.com/?page_id=142 Lundy Bancroft]]

Once you've got the theoretical knowledge, you'll feel more confident about your practical knowledge. This guy is an unreconstructed abuser; he has abused you, abused his mother and he will abuse his daughter, emotionally if not physically, if he is given the opportunity. Unless he has had a root and branch transformation of his attitudes to controlling women, he is still an abuser because without professional intervention, on the whole they don't change. He is totally unsuited to be in contact with children. Your DD has the right to grow up in a functional happy family and if this guy is allowed to be part of it, then she won't do that. He will use her to punish you for having escaped his control - it's what abusers do.

Don't concede anything - no skyping, no contact centre, no nothing - your dd needs protecting from this guy, not introducing to him. Let him take you to court and let him prove to the court that he has reformed and will not use his contact with his child in order to try and control you.

Once you've read the book pass it on to your ex-MIL, you never know, she may benefit from it.

HerBeBolloX · 27/08/2011 00:24

Sorry that link to Bancroft's site didn't work

www.lundybancroft.com/?page_id=142

slightlymiffedmother · 27/08/2011 00:31

I told my ds that sometimes things happen and parents can't live together.

I had denied contact because of dv but when ds asked to see his father I found out as much info as I could on dv, child councelling and bullying.

This taught me about ringfencing toxic people and I was able to support ds through supervised phone contact with his father. When the father bolted I was able to support ds deal with this. He wanted to know his father, he found out for himself what his father was like. He would have done this at some point anyway so I supported him through it when it came up. Now, as far as his father is concerned, my ds doesn't waste a thought and is a very happy secure teenager. We have now both left him.

Unfortunately my ex stealth bullied me through his mother, this was a big problem as I did not realise my ex was saying I was poisoning ds against him and various other things. My ex did not want to see his child just try to keep control of me and he did this through his mother. I wish I had made a formal contact arrangement with the exmil and not allowed her to know where we were living etc.

My ex mil relayed info back to my ex about how I had moved on and was happy. My ex used this against me to phone social services, inland revenue, buy stuff in my name etc etc. nasty. I was told by social services, inland revenue and the companys stuff was bought in my name that it was my ex doing this.

Abusers can be really pathetic so don't let it wear you down, if it does cut contact. Learn about red flags as well as you've raised a few. And you can get plenty of info without giving details. keep your selves safe.

HerBeBolloX · 27/08/2011 00:33

These two articles in particular may be of use to you and may give you the arguments to explain to your ex MIL why you're sticking to your guns on this one. The damage done to a child by a violent parent isn't just about whether the parent physically abuses that child - it's the emotional abuse and the role modelling and values to which that child is being subjected, which is also important.

The batterer as parent

Understanding the Batterer in Custody and Visitation Disputes

inatrance · 27/08/2011 00:41

No chance, you have given him more than a fair opportunity at being a Dad and quite frankly, he has blown it. If that were me I'd be telling your ex-MIL exactly that, and let her know in no uncertain terms that if you found out she had gone against you then she will lost contact also.

You are protecting your daughter from the certain heartbreak of getting to know her Dad now she is older then losing him again when he decides that he's bored again. That is the absolute best thing that can come out of it. The worst just doesn't bear thinking about and is NOT worth the risk IMO.

I firmly believe that you have the measure of him and that if you let him back into your DD's life then he will do his absolute best to mess her up. I think he is just trying to manipulate you and thinks that the easiest way to do that is through your DD.

Stick to your guns and keep your DD away from him.

ComradeJing · 27/08/2011 01:22

I have nothing wise to add but I would second what many posters have said:

Nope, no way and not at all. If he really wants to see her he can go through the courts.

flippinada · 27/08/2011 11:31

I can understand why you are so concerned about this but as others state, you are absolutely right to stick to your guns and not allow access. He sounds awful.

BertieBotts · 27/08/2011 11:54

Slightlymiffedmother, do you have any links/book recommendations on that topic? I'd be really interested to learn more about this ringfencing. I don't want to go down the route of either idolising or demonising his father.

startAfire · 27/08/2011 12:13

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startAfire · 27/08/2011 12:14

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PhilipJFry · 27/08/2011 12:17

Muminthecity- it's terribly sad that your ex-MIL sees domestic violence as part of life and it reinforces that you can only trust your own instincts here. She sounds like she's had a horrible time of it herself for many decades so her perception of the situation is going to be a bit warped. You're right to stand firm on what you think is best.

ThePosieParker · 27/08/2011 12:19

He's beaten up the two most important womenin his life, I can only imagine it's a matter of time before he's abusive toward his daughter. Speaking from bitter experience.

Let him take you to court and get, at best, supervised visits. Ask MIL if she'd be able to live with herself when he hurts dd's feelings or physically. And that you've a nice relationship with her and dd loves her to bits and you would hate Wankface to ruin it all.