Our elderly father being starved by our mum

[curtaincall]

She's just not giving him the right amount of food and he is losing weight. She won't listen to us (her grown-up children) about this as she hasn't about anything, ever. He is now vulnerable and weak and I think is scared of asking her for more food. What on earth would you do ?

Oh this is so sad. :(

You must do something. Standing by and not doing anything is really not an option.

Best of luck dealing with this, must be very difficult.

Florida International University table showing nutritional requirements for adults 51 to 70 and 70+. Men over 70 should still be eating approximately 2000 calories a day.

I'd just like to add, for all the dementia prodders, that it's a blanket term for loss of mental function. Curtaincall mentioned episodes of serious mental illness, so of course it's possible that her mother has episodic dementia.

I'm in favour of talking to the father, in detail and in private, and providing large tubs of Complan. Also of phoning their GP.

I usually think parents should be left to get on with their lives, even if they're cocking things up, but once gave my mum's GP a huge bollocking (against her instructions) when she was desperately ill. I think you have similar justification here.

I'd speak to social services

Hi, you have received some good advice; however, most of these ideas will cost you/your parents money.
I am my dad?s full time carer, I was concerned that he was not eating enough and spoke to his GP; he has been prescribed ENSURE PLUS. Your dad can get these on prescription and it is a yoghurt type drink that provides all the essential vitamins and minerals he will need. My dad has been prescribed one a day and has it with his breakfast. Your dad will get these for free. Your local chemist should also be able to deliver them on a weekly basis. You should also know that they come in a variety of favours so I am sure that he will find one that he likes. You can also let your mum know that they will not suppress his appetite. Good luck.

That's useful info, debivamp :) I've bookmarked the product page in case I need to know later - 350 calories, as well as all the nutrients! Good call!

poor man

Are you feeling any better today, curtaincall?

Curtaincall- I cared for my grandmother after she had a stoke. She was in her mid-80's at the time. She has always been quite small but she developed what I completely unscientifically called "old lady anorexia". You would put a meal in front of her and she would state "I couldn't possibly eat that much". You had to be really sneaky to get enough food into her- repeated plates of small portions, leaving bowls of her favorite candies to snack on to increase her appetite, using Ensure or Complan type drinks.

It was very important that my grandmother didn't lose much weight has she was bipolar (two psychotic episodes as well, sectioned twice) and she took lithium. If she lost too much weight the lithium would start to affect the muscles in her throat and she couldn't speak. She was hospitalized once for this.

Unlike you mother, she was the old and infirm one. But I can see that had she been the younger, stronger half of the couple a situation to that of your parents could have occured, although I'm not saying that is the case.

If your parents are that closed off I do think that you need to escalate this somehow, even with social services if you can't find their GP. While it's entirely possible that you father's weight lose is a result of recent illness, at his age this is a significant risk to his health.

You are obviously a caring daughter and want to do the right thing, even though in this case it may be the hard thing. It's an incredibly difficult transition when we have to be the ones to take care of our parents.

When my gran developed Alzheimer's she used to forget to cook, or put out the dinner things and then think she'd made something and then put them all away again, telling my grandpa that he'd already eaten.

My grandpa covered for her for quite a while because he was scared about what was happening to his wife, but he was very frail, almost blind and unable to cook for himself.

Luckily my parents started to notice other things and got the GP and Social Services involved.

If you're worried that this is affecting your father's health then you need to speak to someone. My grandparents' GP was very discreet. After my dad had spoken to him about thinking there was a problem he visited them under another pretext and things moved on from there.

I think you should call Social Services as well.

As you are concerned about possible abuse, you need to raise a safeguarding referral. There may be a specific number for the safeguarding team, or you may have to go through the main referral number, but if you do, make it very clear you are raising concerns about possible abuse and not just asking for an assessment (use the term safeguarding) - if they raise a normal referral, your parents will be under no obligation to talk to them, but if it is a safeguarding referral, it gives SS additional powers to investigate.

Also, you can remain anonymous, so your parents don't need to know it was you who referred. If they don't find anything untoward they will just close the case, but if they find cause for concern they can make sure your parents get the help they need.

this is first opportunity I have had to get back online. Am incredibly touched by such a response to all this and very moved by some of your stories. Thank you for your table on nutritional requirements, mathsanxiety quite an eye opener as one could easily believe that appetite diminishes with need (though this may also be the case).

I will also look up ENSURE PLUS debivamp.

Thanks for asking purplepidjin. Feel really, really tired but determined to try and do something. It's hard too because they've been very unkind and behaved so harshly to us. I'm trying hard to rise above my anger and to be a compassionate and good daughter.

My father is capable of getting to the kitchen, though probably wouldn't be able to cook anything. He could easily raid the fridge and larder. He could get to a restaurant though this would be harder. It's really an odd one because they have such an active social life - much more than most people i know - but then day to day are these tiny portion meals. Most people wouldn't believe it from the outside. Neither of them would dream of living with me or siblings. We live in a small house and my workspace doubles as the spare room. My DF is chain smoker and DH has asthma etc etc. We have offered in the past however but they would never accept as they don't want to leave their city. (They would also never have us live with them - we are booted out after 2 nights max !!)

lenak can you tell me more about how it works with SS ? Do they phone first or just ring on the door and insist on an interview with them ? I just can't imagine my DPs inviting anyone they don't want let alone listening to them! Years ago, during DM's episode no. 1, she got through about 3 GPs in a few weeks. She would just see them out and move onto the next saying that the new favourite one was just like one of her daughters but better

I was going to call my DM's friend tonight but have been caring for my family who are unwell and not had a minute. I will try tomorrow. Thank you again so much for all good suggestions and support.

This thread does puzzle me. I am not doubting you for a moment OP, but I just dont get it.

If your dad is active, able to open the fridge, go out to a restaurant.. then presumably he is more than capable of speaking up for himself if he is hungry??

I hate to say this, but I would be worried that maybe he is unwell and that could be affecting his appetite and/or be the reason for the weight loss. You say he is a chain smoker in his mid 80's.. ..

Please dont think I am casting doubt on your posts.. I just wonder if you are being misled somehow.. I am finding it a bit hard to explain what I mean here, but at the start of this, I assumed your dad was bedridden or immobile and dependant on your mother for his care, but that doesnt seem to be the case.

Squeaky, she has said her mother's a bully. I understood the problem to be that he eats what he's told to, and she doesn't feed him enough?

Your first call should be their GP I think to ask for a referral to a dietician. Many PCT areas will now not allow Ensure, etc on prescription unless the patient has been assessed by a dietician due to the costs of inappropriate use over recent years. In our area we recommend Complan Shake which is just as good, the only difference is that it has to be reconstituted before use.

There is some good information online about "diet reinforcement" too which is usually the first thing that would be recommended.

Curtaincall - I am a social worker and work in a Safeguarding of Vulnerable Adults Team. My job is to investigate allegations of vulnerable adults - like your dad - being subjected to abuse, including neglect. If you do decide to report what is happening to SS, they do have an obligation to investigate. I don't know which local authority your parents live in, but usual practice is to try and access the vulnerable adult on their own initially to ascertain their views on the situation and gain their consent to intervene / try and assist. They can't just ignore the referral - they have a duty to at least speak to the vulnerable adult and make initial enquiries. Then they would prob look to meet with your mum to discuss her stance on it and try and make her 'see sense' about what she is doing to your dad. I am particularly concerned that you mention that your mum has dementia - could well be that she doesn't understand the implications of what she is doing and possibly isn't capable of changing her ways in terms of meal provision for your dad. SS may suggest a full assessment of need for both your parents and this may then lead to a recommendation for home support services - such as carers or delivered meals - to ensure that your dad's needs are met...and possibly your mum's too.

The only snag in all of this is that your dad has to agree to any services / intervention unless he lacks the mental capacity to make such decisions...which he doesn't by the sounds of it as you said he is 'compus mentis'. Us social workers are usually quite good at persuading people to accept support or at least change their ways slightly for the better. We can also liaise with other professionals - such as GPs - and lean on them to prescribe things such as Complan (altho this can just be bought from a pharmacy). You can of course call the GP yourself if you ever find out where they are registered but the chances are they will play the data protection act / patient confidentiality card and not listen to what you have to say.

If you want any other insider info on Social services then let me know - happy to help / advise if I can. I know a lot of people hate us and think we are interfering, meddling bastards but some of us really just want to try and make life a bit better for people.

Glad to hear you're still positive!

Complan is available in Sainsbury's (and probably other places), DP was having the soups to supplement his diet when he ran an ultra marathon last year. He also liked the energy bars (lots of different types in holland and barrett and often on 3 for 2) and snacked on jelly babies

lenak can you tell me more about how it works with SS ?

Came on to reply but noticed MrsStevo has already explained it.

MrsStevo - I work in SS too, but back office. I know there is an obligation to investigate with Safeguarding, but what happens if the alleged victim refuses to speak to the social worker - under safeguarding do you have the right to talk to the GP etc?

have 5 minutes to check on thread. My DB has been visiting and DSis and I are going to catch up with him this evening. Will pass on all info too.

Mrstevo Us social workers are usually quite good at persuading people to accept support or at least change their ways slightly for the better.

I believe you. However, you have never met my DM. I don't think thumbscrews would help. I think fwiw my DF is henpecked and willingly. squeaky like i said before, i think, its an odd one because on the one hand they look fine and my dad seems to be in control; on the other, i think he wouldn't do anything without DMs permission. I experience them both as being uber-controlling so who knows ? The idea of anyone trying to 'interfere' is anathema to them. Perfect example is how my father should be dead by now with the sheer volume of substance abuse he's had over his lifetime and how many professionals and family members have advised him endlessly to give up smoking and drinking ... is this a slow form of suicide ? Can you stop people from hurting themselves? You would have to know them to understand. They are deeply damaged, damaging and complex people. Not to say I don't want to help - it requires much thought though.

lenak good point. I wait to hear the answer about if there's a right to talk to GP. Even then, how can you force someone to feed their partner. Section them again ? My DF wouldn't survive (emotionally) this time if DM was sectioned.

Will try and catch up again later if anyone can add anything.

curtaincall, my parents are both doctors in their mid-eighties, and find it quite difficult to eat enough to stop their weight falling, especially when they are unwell. They are aware of this, and one thing they do is nibble lots of different sorts of unsalted nuts and raisons as an easy way of getting the calories. A sherry before meals is a very good appetite stimulant.

foolishthings it sounds as though your DP are both in sound mind then and able to self-diagnose for their own benefit. Its an excellent idea of course, but my DF wouldn't eat nuts and raisins. As for the sherry, he wouldn't touch that, but half a bottle of wine and a tumbler of scotch (his usual pre-prandials) might do the trick ?

As i think I've mentioned before, this is as much a mental problem as a physical one. Not taking advice from anyone, even GP (DP won't tell us who they are), let alone family.

I appreciate your help, though, and will store this info for myself when/if old and losing weight. [adds bottle of Sherry to own shopping list] :)

Latecomer to this thread.
Just wanted to say that my DH's late mother drank and smoked heavily. She ate like a bird and got most of the calories she needed to function from alcohol. She was underweight, but her appetite returned when she cut down on her drinking.
Could the same apply to your father, do you think? I mean he gets his "energy" from drinking and smoking and therefore doesn't feel the need to eat?

I recognise this situation and understand how a man can let it happen to them. MIL and FIL were like this. She fed him very little even though he was still doing full time manual work (though in his late 70s and very frail). He wasn't 'allowed' to help himself to food, 'had to' hand over all his money to her etc etc. It was part of an overall controlling/abusive relationship, and neither could change after 45 years of marriage (the term I think you used of co-dependency is exactly that). Funnily enough she is about 10 years younger than him too, and history of mental illness.

Other signs of him being under-fed were the fact that when we took them out for a meal or they came to dinner with family, he absolutely demolished everything on his plate, and anything anyone else left. He doesn't now they have split up.

Are you sure there is no other abuse going on too?

I feel for you - this is such a difficult situation. DH and his siblings tried various things but it was difficult as FIL wouldn't confess what was happening. It was only resolved because he ended up in hospital with physical injuries from her physical abuse and social services (first time they were involved and they were great actually) told him he wasn't allowed back. He now lives happily in sheltered housing, and MIL is sad and lonely on her own (ha ha).