Is it ever okay to be aggressively asked "are you thick" by a partner?

[shocked2]

In this case my "h". He is trying to get rid of clutter in the house - a longstanding issue between us as I am a hoarder to a certain extent and he hates it. He told me today that unless I get rid of certain things that need to be e-bayed he will put them out on the pavement. I do know where he is coming from as this is the thing that I have been putting off for literally months.
His tone is always angry and unkind in this situation though.

Just now he is on e-bay and he asked me aggressively what bike I wanted to get rid of. I didn't understand and thought he meant of mine so I said I did not want to get rid of mine (my dad recently brought it over from his house - it used to belong to my auntie and probably is too small for me but I don't want to get rid of it as yet). At this point he aggressively says "ARE YOU THICK?" and then I feel flustered and realise that he didn't mean my bike in general but the others - there are quite a few cluttering up the garden which belong / have belonged to the children a lot of which he purchased himself from e-bay etc... Eg he bought middle daughter two choppers and was going to use one to fix the other (the parts) but hasn't done this so they are languishing in our garden unuseable. So we have another small conversation where I am flustered and he is aggressive about which bikes to get rid of..... He also refers to one bike (an older one) as being "fucked".

Should add that we get on in a fairly civil manner during the week but weekends are always difficult. We do not live as a couple any more but more as co-parents. I find his negativity, short-temper and bullishness difficult. I don't talk to him about anything that really matters to me as it is impossible. We never kiss or hug or say nice things to each other. He doesn't like my clutter and lack of housekeeping skills. We also have lots of issues surrounding money.

He can be more relaxed but in general we are not on an equal footing - he is 12 years older than me which is part of it.

Anyway, my main question was whether the question "are you thick?" is every okay because it made me feel like crying :(.

Hmmm. Now I would say he is out of order and you should tell him to sod off but it's all about the context.

I called DP thick and shouted at him rather a lot on Friday when he came home and told me that he'd got another 3 points for speeding. That takes him to 9. Another 3 could see him lose his job. And not to mention that the car insurance premium will now go through the roof. I think I was quite within my rights to ask him if he was thick. Who thinks they can repeatedly break the speed limit without consequence?

And the answer is someone thick! Which he agrees he has been. So yes, it sometimes is ok but I don't think it is in your circumstances OP.

He doesn't like clutter. You do. You avoid the issue. He gets exasperated when you avoid the issue. Repeat ad infinitum.

Somehow, keeping more sh*t does not seem to me to be the best way to break the cycle.

Sorry OP.

Sorry OP, I am not saying this just for the sake of attacking you - as it can often feel when you don't get 100% supportive answers to a thread, I know that can be hurtful - but I do agree with those who can see things from your husband's perspective, as a child of parents who are hoarders (not severe hoarders though). I can really relate to the following:

Hoarders are a pain in the arse and very selfish. They're not going out of their way to annoy their loved ones with piles of junk....but it does annoy them, impact on their lives and cause distress, and the hoarder doesn't care.

No - he should NOT talk to you like that OP....but honestly, I'd go bananas in his shoes. I really would.

OP, I think you are underestimating the horrible psychological impact that it can have on people to live amongst clutter and junk, with the person responsible for all that junk actively "railing against" the idea of cleaning up that environment and making it awful for you if you try to get rid of anything, even if what you want to get rid of belongs to you . Your description of the bike that is too small but you "don't want to get rid of it just yet" (when do you want to get rid of it?) really reminds me of my parents and the helplessness/ rage I felt as a child/ teenager, living in this awful environment that they would not allow anyone to tidy. Broken treadmills/ exercise bikes; rusty old office shelving; countless papers, books, and magazines; hundreds if not thousands of old records; any of their parents' old furniture squashed into any spaces in the house - if I spent hours cleaning a space up my father would put more stuff in the space I had cleared up and then get really angry if I tried to move it. I would say I was 95% responsible for getting rid of "stuff" and ensuring the house remained in a liveable condition, clutter-wise. It is an awful way to live and that rage at having no control over your environment and having people sabotage your efforts to clean up your own living space can really make you act awfully. It is a helpless, furious feeling that you are allowed no control over your own environment. Because maintaining a "hoard" that permeates others' living spaces is a very controlling thing to do.

I remember on one occasion when I had cleaned up an area and my father promptly began moving more furniture into the area I had cleaned up, I stormed past and deliberately bumped into the furniture (made of cane) to make it fall over, I was so angry. I also had shouting matches with them about it. It is ENTIRELY possible that your husband's anger is 100% due to his awful living environment. (It is also possible that he's just a rude or disrespectful man, but we don't know him.) And to be blunt you have also given so many different excuses on this thread as to why you haven't done anything about what's making him so upset. I think you need to look honestly at whatever the core reason is that you can't let go of "stuff". I would also encourage you to look within yourself rather than looking outward towards your environment when finding reasons for your difficulties. And if you don't think you're "that bad" a hoarder I would encourage you to do everything possible to move away from the more extreme end of the hoarding spectrum, towards being tidier and more considerate of others' living space, and that would involve, for instance, getting rid of the bike and similarly useless stuff. You can only make changes if you acknowledge your own power and responsibility in a situation like this.

Totally agree with Custardo and Pigglesworth.

I live (in a small house) with a hoarder. DH is a NIGHTMARE. He has to have 5 of everything. And then he buys more becuase he's lost the original 5 in the piles of crap he has in the shed/garage/utility room/bedroom.....He literally brings things home he has found in skips ffs! And tries to sneek them in the house whilst I'm not looking!

Now I love DH, but I HATE the hoarding. I try and stay on top of it as best I can, tidying things into every available space, cajoling DH into making decisions about getting rid of things. But it is very wearing and quite depressing.

Every couple of weeks months I LOSE IT. BIG TIME. In a kind of 'FFS DH, what the fuck is a matter with you, I cannot live in this shit tip anymore you bastard, sort it out or I'm chucking everything out the fucking window!'.

So OP, try to empathise with how frustrating and soul-destroying it is to live with a hoarder. Sort out your stuff as best you can, and if your H is still rude to you when there is no hoarding, then work out what to do then.

Have I misunderstood, shocked, or has only one other poster noticed that the stuff in question is HIS?

Everybody's banging on about your bike, but there are two broken choppers in the garden that are his. He had a go at you for thinking he meant your bike, when he really meant the others - and so are the other respondents to your thread!!

Right. It's not okay to call you thick if that's not normal in your household. It can't be okay for you, because you started a thread on it, so the answer to your title question is No.

Secondly, it's very not okay to demand your partner reads your mind. The saddest thing here is that you expected to read his mind, too. When he says "Which bike shall we get rid of?" you go, "Out of which ones? How many bikes shall we get rid of?" Don't jump to conclusions. Especially not when that conclusion puts you in the wrong.

The bikes in the garden are mostly his. The clutter in the loft is mostly his. And you're the only hoarder? I don't think so. The pair of you may have constructed a narrative in which you're the messy hoarder and he's the organised tidier, but the facts don't bear that out, do they?

There's quite a bit more I'd like to say about your scenario and about hoarding, but I've a suspicion that neither of you are hoarders of stuff, as it goes. I suspect you are both hanging on to memories, perhaps from when your marriage was better, and neither of you is willing to admit it.

There's another option which is effective. If you live with a hoarder and their stuff gets on your nerves/in your way, just get rid of it. Put stuff in the bin or take it to the tip. If it's stuff they haven't used for years or are unlikely to use because it's broken/too small/whatever, they probably won't even notice until five years later, by which time you'll have forgotten about it and can just shrug.

I shall duck under the table now while the abuse flies. But it works. No arguments, no shouting, no trying to prize decisions out of someone who can't make a decision. If the hoarders in question are anything like the ones I know and love, they don't even know what they're hoarding because they move on to new horizons of hoardingness all the time.

I'm a bit confused as to why the OP is getting told she's making her DH live in a 'tip'.

Did he know you were a bit of a hoarder when you moved in together? I'm guessing so. IMO, he should be making compromises too. Your things are obviously important to you. Yes, that may be annoying for him if he is a minimalist, but he should be willing to compromise. It sounds as if he feels he can 'put his foot down' about the clutter and insist you sell things - this is not on. It should be a discussion.

TBH, it sounds as if he is really trying to make you think all the clutter is yours so you have to sort it out/take responsibility.

I think I've just put my finger on something else that would worry me. You say 'a lot of his negative opinions bore me though he is clever'. I may be reading too much into this, but that's some rather odd reasoning and it reminds me of the way my own mum justifies the way my dad treats her - which isn't great.

I'm sure your DH is clever. But it's actually a bit odd that you feel the need to say this at this point - as if you're justifying him. The way you phrase it, it sounds as if it's your fault you find his negativity boring - he can't possibly be at fault because he is 'clever'.

Honestly, this is not good. He may be clever, but if he is boring you with negative opinions, that is no excuse. It sounds as if he's repeating the same negative things - is that right? And you don't really find it interesting to hear them any more. IMO, that is not him being 'boring', that is him refusing to communicate, and quite possibly being hurtful. If I'm wrong, and you are just 'bored' - fine. But if he's actually upsetting you by repeating the same negative comments over and over, do you ever tell him so? And does he say anything?

I would be mortified and apologetic if my DH thought I was making the same boring comments over and over - it's not normal behaviour from your partner.

(Whew, sorry for the essay.)

Well said, dragon.

shocked, I think you have been given quite a hard time on this thread. You have every right to feel upset that your DH spoke to you in that way, it was nasty and unkind. Being verbally abused by your DH won't help you become more tidy or organised.

I think that your post is more about an unhappy relationship and a partner that doesn't treat you with respect than about hoarding. Do you think counselling might help you to communicate better with him or do you feel that the marriage is past that point?

Shocked-ive read youre op and some of the stuff youve said but i havent read the whole thread-so please forgive me if i say anything thats already been said.
personnally-i would keep the bikes and get rid of the husband.
youre DH sounds very much like my ex and you sound like i did years ago.
i feel for you Shocked.
has youre self esteem gone?[it sounds like it but id thought id ask]-go and see a councellor to try and help with this.
when you get youre self esteem back[if you had it in the first place]you will be in a stronger posision to decide what you want to do.
you said that he "is above you"or "feels he is above you"[sorry cant remember the exact words you used]-i know exactly what you mean!
do you think it is because of the age gap[my ex was older also]?
when you have more self esteem-it wont seem so scary to be on youre own[if need be]
NO ONE should make you feel like this darling.
its him with the problem not you.
all i can say is-some men can change but others dont!
look after youreself-youre kids need you.

oh and if need be-get in touch with womens aid.
i can see how youre feeling-i feel that this is abuse.

Hello

Thanks so much for all the messages people have posted since yesterday. I am moved by the effort people have put into reading the thread and posting their suggestions, ideas and advice. It has been very interesting to read the experiences of those who either live or used to live with hoarders. Though my house is messy and cluttered, it isn't like the houses on TV which have one room filled to the brim with bags, but I suppose those psychological tendencies are there within me. I really don't want to leave my children the legacy of lots of "stuff" to sort out later on, nor do I want to keep the energy in my house "stuck" in the way that it is at present, for my h as well as for me. I agree that I have used clutter or "things" in my unspoken battle with dh.... to counteract lots of the things I don't like about him but this is still not an excuse.

I googled hoarding and read through some interesting sites yesterday which say that the instinct to hoard (though obviously there are much much worse cases than mine where whole houses cannot be used at all because of the things inside them - the bathroom is full of stuff, the kitchen can't be cooked in.... and where people keep all packaging and seemingly totally useless stuff) is related to OCD but is not the same thing. That however it is linked to anxiety / depression.

In my case I find it very very difficult to get rid of things which carry memories with them but when the house is tidy there isn't so much stuff that the house is unpleasant - at all. It is obviously a lived in house which is not at all minimalist but it is fine. The problem though is that when it gets untidy (which is often) there is definitely too much stuff around. Dh is by nature a lot more minimalist than me but yes he does have his own stuff to shift as well. I suppose I am the one who buries my head in the sand and who procrastinates like mad. This is ok if one lives alone but not so much when living with others.

My relationship with dh is not good.... it remains to be seen how much better it could become without the pressure of mess around us but I am determined to sort out the house so that is airier and more pleasant for us all... that at least I can be responsible for.

I agree that my self-esteem is not sky high and that I could be a lot happier... I think that dh and I have reached a place where we could easily move on from each other because we seem to need completely different things and have different expectations of what being with someone should be like. We never talk about these things. He is far more solitary than me whereas I would be happy to have people come round or go round to places a lot more... I don't think he is that interested in anything I have to say unless it is about the kids whom we laugh about together.... It does not feel like two humans who like each other together (though I do have residual fondness), but more that I have my function which I am supposed to fulfill.... It feels relentless but maybe all parents feel this way? The main thing I don't like about dh is the domineering / autocratic / cynical / super judgemental side to his personality. He does also have a softer side but I would rather be with someone whom I could experience life with / share thoughts and feelings without feeling judged etc....

good luck shocked

good luck with sorting out your house shocked, for me personally i could never live in a mess. tbh it would drive me absolutely nuts! i know you kind of hate your dh and what he has become but if you got him involved in this process it could be the start of something? or is that just a fantasy ... you never know ... get your children involved too, if it has a postive result mind, to show them how you are solving this 'problem' of the house. perhaps if they are involved then your dh will be calmer about it