Suggestions needed for dealing with narc mother please

[Namechangerlicious]

Sorry this will be long but don't want to dripfeed...

Background: I feel she abandoned me when i was a child when she gave me the choice of living with another relative without her, or living in squalor with her and a bunch of innapropriate people (her then-friends) a very long way away from home away from everything I'd ever known. She denies this and insists that I didn't want to live with her. I of course wanted to live with her, she was my mum, but she gave me 2 horrible options and I chose the one where I felt safest. The relative I was brought up by says that my mother kept phoning trying to get the relative to talk me into staying there (with the relative), but the relative did not. Mother also denies this.

Fast forward: Now in my 30s, happily married, couple of kids, still living in same area where I was brought up. Four years ago, she called to say she wanted to come and live here and to find her somewhere to rent. I did it. I was excited, after all these years of very infrequent visits i was getting my mum back! She wanted somewhere very close - excellent! I was happy.

She lives a few doors away and at first I spent lots of time with her, helping her lots, feeling for the first time in over 20 years I had a 'real mum' who loved me.

I didn't know about narc parents until i read about them on here and read Toxic Parents book. Then it all became horribly clear.

I have taken a step back from our relationship in recent months as i have realised what she is, and that I've been trying to mould her into the mum I always craved. I realise now that she won't change and it makes me so sad sometimes.

Some examples of her behaviour: when she came with me to try on my wedding dress, she said "yeah it looks alright" in a disinterested voice then went back to reading her magazine. On my wedding day she told me off for something that was beyond my control. She used to call my eldest DD fat and then denied it, even though I heard it. We fell out over this for a few days, her crying down the phone, calling me names etc. This incident has since been glossed over but i and my family haven't been able to forget it. She shouted at me and called me a bitch once (5 yrs ago?) for being a little late to meet her, in front of my DCs and friend.

She is now unemployed, preparing to go bankrupt, has spent years evading tax, has no transport, no friends in this area and tries to get me to do everything for her. The tax thing she has recently had to come clean about - all fine, she just had to give them tax returns for last few years (which I had to do for her!)

The thing is - I have been diagnosed recently with major depression and am being treated. It stems from her but I have not told her that. I am a SAHM and my days are busy. However, she sees fit to drop in unannounced whenever she feels like it, then stays for 2 or 3 hours moaning about how the world owes her a living, getting me to drop everything and do stuff for her. Disrupting my days basically. Several times a week. i dread her coming round. I can't just not answer the door because it's intercom-entry and I can't see the door where the intercom is from inside my home.

Last week was a blessed relief as she was away. I texted her a light-hearted message the day after but she didn't reply at all, but if I don't reply to her texts immediately she gets pissed off. She had asked me to water her pot plants while she was away, but it rained heavily here every single day she was away so I didn't bother to go round there, as I didn't think the plants would need it. Yesterday she came home and immediately texted me to say "I'm home, pot plants all half dead did you not water them x"

Last time she went away, I DID water her plants several times but when she got back she said most of them were dead and accused me of not watering them at all. So this time I just replied with "Didn't think there was any need, we had so much heavy rain every day. Hope you had a nice time away." and I KNOW she will have received that text and then spent the next hour swearing and ranting about me behind my back.

Everything she thinks/says/believes in is correct - anyone with differing opinions is wrong. She drinks a lot sometimes. She's very loud and overbearing/outspoken.

I have told her that we'd like to move out of the area at some point when we can afford to. She said "you're NOT moving out of the county, you can't leave me here on my own!"

I just want her to go away and stay away. I can't tell her because she intimidates me and I'm quite fearful of her reaction. My DCs and DH find her very difficult to deal with, as do certain other family members. Yet she seems to think she's the life and soul and that everyone loves her.

I am certain she will be round mine at some point this week or even today and I need some suggestions on how to deal with her please. i try very hard to keep a smile on my face and let her comments go over my head, to be helpful (because it's sometimes just easier than to explain why i don't want to help) and to keep things lighthearted. But it's so draining and after she leaves i feel angry and stressed out and sweary.

I'm so sorry this was so long and rambling

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow - That's a good list of solutions there. I'm going for 2b but aiming for 2a. Definitely. I don't like her as a person at all, neither do my DH or kids. So for me, no.1 isn't ideal. I know she would never accept responsibility so no point even trying.

MizzyTizzy Your post made me laugh! A similar thing happens here, due to being expected to do all the housework after I got home from school and before my guardian got home from work. I now feel terribly guilty if I haven't finished it when my DH gets home, even though he couldn't actually care less whether I've done it or not. I often have a mad tidy up just before he is due home.

Hi turquoisetumble

I had 19 years of low contact with my parents and sibs.

Parents retired and moved in next door to me as a retirement surprise...this move was never discussed with me.

I had no choice but to find ways of 'managing' my circumstances until such times as they changed, and the advice here is how I personally coped.

My parents lived next door for roughly 5 years...they moved 7 ish months ago when I finally went no contact.

I did what I did to survive the encounters and allow me to not have a breakdown...yes, it was hard work - but at least now for me it is over and I have mentally survived the event.

Thank you TurquoiseTumble

I would absolutely LOVE to go no contact, but as i said, she's a few doors away. We can't afford to move away and neither can she. But as soon as that changes, we are OUT of here! I don't want to put so much effort into my relationship with my mum, but I have to, because otherwise she has the upper hand all the time and that drives me to real despair. I am determined now, to regain the upper hand and to show her that I won't be pushed around and that I deserve a bit of respect.

You're right, it is the wrong way round, I know I should be trying to please myself and my immediate family rather than getting stressed out trying to please her. This is what I'm working on to change. I know it's me who has to change - I have to change how I deal with her, because she will never change her own behaviour.

Sorry to read of your parents. Yes it is difficult but i think I've just about gone through the 'grieving process' for the mum I always wanted/needed/wished for because she just didn't exist. I feel bad saying this as you've lost yours and I've still got mine and I'm not sure if I sound selfish.

Mizzy - sorry if I seemed to be criticising, I wasn't. It must have been awful and I'm glad you've finally got some peace. From the outside it just sounds so exhausting.

Namechanger - don't feel bad. My relationship with my Mum was difficult too (nothing on the scale of yours though). I've grieved for the Mum I wanted (someone who showed me unconditional love) as well as the Mum I actually had. I'm almost ashamed to say that I feel happier and more at peace now my Mum is gone.

turquoisetumble... it was exhausting!

No worries on the criticism front...even after such a short time out of it - I do look back and am amazed at the amount of energy I had to use just trying to not rock the boat.

Turquoise I can understand that, the feeling ashamed. I can't voice or even type what the thing is that would make me happier and more at peace. It makes me sad to think it, but I know life would be so much easier and I would be able to be me without fear. It would be an enormous weight lifted. That's unbelievably awful, I know. But there it is.

Namechangerlicious I hope you enjoyed your day out. Thanks for the welcome. It actually feels so good to speak to people who understand. I can't talk to other family members because I worry that they will tackle her and make things worse. Also I think for some of them my Mum is just literally a bit of a joke & something to laugh about.
I would love to have counselling & didn't know I could get a referral through my GP. I think that I have many issues that stem from my Mum not least my own obsession with order, routine & control. I think that comes from years as a child of not knowing when she would be home & the dread of hearing the bath running and smelling her perfume because that mean't she was going out again & leaving me to babysit my sister. The smell of Chanel No. 19 still does strange things to me!

I feel for you having the guilts put on you for doing family things without your mother. My mum gets the hump when I speak to another family member on the phone - especially my sister or my step-nan who is her new bete noir!

MizzyTizzy You made me a bit said reading about your conditioned response to the sound of visitors. I feel terrorised by the phone because of my mum's frequent calls and often ignore it or have it unplugged. My DP also has a special ringing code so I know it's safe to pick up the phone.

Puppy You speak a lot of sense in what you say. I think maybe the biggest problem for me is admitting that all is not normal when all I want is a normal family. I keep saying to myself I am going to detach from her, not talk about anything meaningful with her etc.. but then I find myself getting sucked back in to where I started.

Itsmeandmypuppy v quick post to say I love your posts.
Teatime here at the zoo so back later x

Aw thanks! That gives me the warm and fuzzies.
x

Hello all of you. How have you been today?
I'm feeling a bit guilty because I've begun to use my mum. I've managed to back off from her emotionally and have had some success in feeling less drained by her but I think I'm actually taking the piss a bit. Basically I don't give her anything of myself anymore I just take whatever she offers in the way of help with the kids.
She has treated me badly as an adult and I guess there were times as a child too (controlling etc) but trying to tell me how to live my life and making me feel crap have been her wurst offences. After my dad died the buffer between her odd behaviour & the rest of the world was gone. She had tantrums about how I didn't support her in her grief. Eventually I confronted her saying "you've never once put your arms around me and asked me how I feel." I think this shocked her. Anyway it helped me retreat as I realised that although she was in her own dark hell and unable to help me in my grief, it was wrong of her to try and make me feel WORSE. I stopped caring so much about her after this.
I go round in circles wondering if I'm a brat or if she's truly narcissistic.
I did read Toxic Parents. Get this for irony - I borrowed it from her!!!
Time for a re read.
Also scared to death of repeating patterns with my own kids.
Blimey that was incoherent babbling. Sorry

Worst not wurst
Bloody phone!!!!

Tuppeny That's how I feel, like I am using her sometimes. I think all these horrible things and me and my sister get together and talk to each other about what a nightmare she can be and then she visits bearing gifts or says on the phone what a lovely person I am and I feel awful. I know that I have done a lot for her in the past - probably way more especially giving in emotional terms - but I just feel awful.

I was interested in what you said about the way your mum was when your dad passed away. When my stepdad died my Mum's behaviour was absolutely appalling. I supported her loads, went to stay with her, had her to stay with us, put up with her raging alcoholism, sucked up her suicide threats, her sobbing fits, her vicious rants about my stepdad's children and, like you said about your mum, she never once acknowledged this support or thought about anyone else's grief. She even said that the only person she loves in this world had died & she had nothing to live for. I found that particularly vile. The tin lid though was on the day of the funeral going and having her nails & hair done declaring that "it was her day" then at the wake working the room and leaving me and my sister and young nephew on our own for the whole thing. When my grandad died she came out with how the grief was much worse for her than for my step grandmother & how my step gran was wallowing in it and needed to pull herself together - talk about pot, kettle! My grandad would turn in his grave.

It's interesting what you say about going round in circles wondering whether you are a brat or she is narcissistic. I spent years as a child soaking up her bad behaviour and telling myself that I only believed that she was awful because I was a kid and that's what all kids think and that I was immature. I continued to think this even after her being drunk one night and apologising for loving my sister more than me when we were little. The penny has only recently dropped for me that she has a personality disorder and that our upbringing wasn't normal and wasn't right.

Sorry I am going on again but it feels so cathartic.

By the way I love you borrowing the Toxic Parents book off your mum. Did she not ask why you wanted to read it?!

Hi Pout, she did look at me strangely when I took it but said nothing! Interesting that she had it. Can only assume she hates her mother too. From what I gather her mother had left her to care for siblings while she buffeted off somewhere so the frustration & anger my mum must've felt....
Oh God I feel bad again now....... Thing is in sane moments she is kind & she does love my kids....
But I digress. Yes she did the raging and sobbing and said the same nasty hurtful thing as your mum did. "I've got nothing to live for." I was shocked at that but put it down to grief. It's the sniff, nose in air, weird change of attitude "but I'm fine now, never mind." changing subject so you're left wondering what what what what do you want from me????
It's exhausting.
Something occurred to me earlier. When I told my parents I was expecting no2 my dad replied "oh God not another one for us to raise"
Now my dad was great but this memory is bothering me. It's out if character. It's as if he were voicing HER thoughts. Ironically they had moved to another country when no1 was 4 weeks old so how they thought they'd raised him is beyond me.
I'm interested in everything you say so don't feel otherwise x

It is very interesting and helpful to read of other peoples' situations with their toxic parents.

I was talking to someone about this earlier and they actually made me feel like I'm just being silly. I'm sure they didn't mean to make me feel that way and were just trying to be helpful, but basically they were saying that I should just accept my mum for who she is and give her my time and attention when she needs it because she's lonely. But what has she ever done for me??? Nothing. Oh, except for giving birth to me and a couple of other minor things. All my life she has been full of broken promises.

I'm feeling really quite angry today actually. She's so bloody manipulative! I want to go and stand in the middle of a field and have a really big scream.

Sorry - I was coping quite well yesterday but today it's all got on top of me again

I also had a bad 'ooops' moment last night. I was talking to my husband about things and eldest was still up but was on laptop watching a film with headphones on. Didn't realise the film had finished, she heard me saying "Up until just a couple of years ago I used to wish 'xxx' was dead" (not my mum - another family member) and she said "Mum!! That's horrible!!" And it WAS horrible and I'm so gutted she heard me say it. I just went on to say well things happened that you don't know about but I don't feel like that anymore. Which is true. But I feel so bad she heard me.

Name - if someone has a normal (ish) mother they cannot relate at all. I'm constantly made to feel like an utter cow for putting my mum down but honestly they just don't get it. I've read many threads like this & some posters have said "oh you're lucky you have your mum" etc which from the outside looks true. BUT ISN'T!
Come and vent some more. I had a day like that on Sunday. I literally hated her then yesterday she sent me a text to thank me for the dinner I'd given her and I went back to questioning myself. Is it all in my head etc
Grrrrrrrr.
x

Can I join in? Don't have time to give details atm but am watching this thread and will be back tomorrow.

like whereonearth am watching and haven't got time now to write a long post but just wanted to say tuppeny your feelings are valid because they're your feelings. end of. just because your Mum can have a "normal" response sometimes like a seemingly nice text doesn't wipe out the feelings you have around the relationship. It confuses you, yes, because you then doubt yourself and start to wonder if you've got it all wrong.

One thing I've learnt on my journey is that it's not normal to dread seeing your Mum or to panic when the phone rings. It doesn't matter that on the surface we have a reasonably functional relationships now. It's what's underneath - the back story - that triggers those feelings and they are very real.

That was meant to be a short post!

Hi everyone,

Just popped in to say hello...I've been doing tax returns so have a glorious headache to contend with now. Grrr!

I just wanted to say I agree with Tuppenyrice, from my experience - average people with Ok family relationships really just don't get it. Even my DH didn't 'get it' until he saw the proof himself...he supported me but now he truly does 'get it'.

Will we turn into our mothers?

As people who lacked nurture in childhood, I think there is a risk that we will use our children for nurture and validation the way our mothers did, Tuppenyrice.

It's a thought I wrestle with too.

The way I see it, being aware of the risk is essential, but perhaps not fully sufficient. That's why I am doing a lot of work on my self-esteem and learning how not to need external validation (although one always appreciates it; we're human after all), so that I can try to avoid using children and other dependents for my own validation, even unconsciously.

Are you reading or in therapy? I'm considering counselling but aware that's it's tricky to get the right person for the job! Previous sessions I had after my dad died when I relentlessly spoke about my mother the counsellor failed to pick up on any of the glaring red narc flags!

I keep thinking but my childhood was great......

I'm in therapy, Tuppeny. With a therapist specialised in domestic abuse. We segued from speaking about my stbxh to speaking about my parents quite naturally; she certainly seemed to be expecting it. We also speak a lot about children's needs, and what my particular issues in raising children would be due to my psychological make-up and upbringing (in my case: difficulty setting limits / wanting to be the opposite of my mother / not wanting to risk losing a child's love by appearing too harsh. My therapist has helped me to see that this leads to permissiveness which is also not great for children, although certainly less harmful than abuse). It's been very useful.

I also read a lot: books, websites... Even material that doesn't speak specifically about the needs of adult children of abuse in raising their own children gives insights that are useful: the more I understand the narc taint ("fleas"), the better I can identify it in myself and watch out for triggers, and prepare how I will react in triggering situations (for me: situations where I need to voice my displeasure and limits, which I find extremely hard to allow myself to do).

By the way, when I said in my post above that there is a risk of ACOA using dependents for emotional validation, that doesn't mean it's a certainty! Please don't look for reasons to beat yourself up. Remember that the hallmark of narcs and abusers is the inability to take responsibility for their own actions and feelings. If you are able to take responsibility for how you raise your DC and any eventual mistakes you may make, as a fallible human being then I would say you have nothing to fear from yourself.

(pedantry alert: I realise I used the term "fleas" incorrectly in my post above. My lack of limits is the effect of having been raised by a narc mother and is the opposite to her behaviour. Fleas would be me mimicking narc behaviour in situations where I haven't had a healthier model.

I think exhibiting narc behaviour is more what you were concerned about; right Tuppeny?

For example, when I whine half-jokingly, but really not, "Don't you love me anymore?" to somebody close to me from whom I have received a perceived rejection that I have no idea how to handle healthily, those are narcissist fleas I've caught. I sound like my mother. I am demanding that others nurture me. It's certainly not something I want to impose on any children, and so I need to teach myself how to deal with normal, everyday rejections in a healthier manner. Adapt to your own particulars as needed!)

Namechange, think it could be good for you to set some more boundaries with your mother, eg asking her not to come round unannounced, asking her to leave after an hour, dsaying no to ALL her requests for help, not letting her in, not telling her things, not letting dcs see her too much.

Read up on assertiveness. Might help you get by until you can access counselling.

What do your dh and dc think you should do?

She may well freak out, but ignore!

Your RL friend is talking bollocks! Sounds like your mother moved closer cos her life's a mess and she knows you will help her and want a relatiinship with her, even though she doesn't deserve it.

I think that it is very difficult for other people to comprehend how a mother can let her children down so badly so perhaps it easier for them to assume that the child is exaggerating or attention seeking. I know that at the beginning my own DP couldn't understand quite what my childhood was like probably because his own mother was so good at being a Mum - I think even now he doesn't fully grasp it but fortunately after 13 years he has seen what a nightmare she can be. TBH I never talk about my relationship with my mother to anyone but my sister. Actually that seems to dominate our relationship and is largely all we talk about. Not healthy & I feel guilty because while it seems to help me it leaves her feeling more angry.

It's interesting the point about will we turn into our mothers. That worries me and I often find myself asking DP if he thinks my mum and I are alike. We are TTC at the moment and I do have concerns that I will be a terrible mum. I see issues in how my sister brings up her son and hope that I won't be the same. I hadn't thought about using children for emotional validation (something else for me to ponder - as it stands I frequently ask DP whether he still loves me because I don't like myself very much and don't understand what he loves in me), I am worried more about controlling my anger and frustration when children come along and I am tired or stressed. My mum used to fly into rages and lash out & the thought of being like that with my own child would be just too awful.

I can see how perhaps indulging our own children and not setting limits could be a problem. This sounds like a really barmy comparison to make and probably only one that a barren saddo like me would make so I hope I don't offend, but I have two dogs who I guess are my substitute "babies" and I find that I have real issues with telling them off & at times have felt close to tears guilty about it. Okay will stop now because I am sounding like a mad dog lady

I have tried setting limits and saying no to my mum but she just relentlessly bulldozes on until she wears you down. She does this over visiting. She spends a few days in apparent general chit chat establishing whether you have forthcoming plans and then boom hits you with "we were thinking of coming over to visit on Saturday". When I tell her that isn't convenient (which is hard) she then says how she'll make it Sunday or the next weekend and so it carries on until you have no more excuses and no more assertiveness left. She did this at Easter and it totally ruined the Easter weekend because I spent Thursday and Friday fuming & ranting.