Equality of labour

[gondolo]

My DH and I both work full time in exactly the same jobs (both hospital doctors). I am 5 months pregnant with our first. Despite nagging / ultimatum / upset etc I still do 99% of all household tasks. We moved house recently, I did all of the move and all of the associated administration.
I do all of the cleaning / shopping / cooking / bill paying / household administration. I don't think DH even realises we've got a garden so I do lawnmowing / watering / putting bins out etc.
I look after our dog (taking to vets etc) and do everything else.
I stopped doing DH's laundry in February and it took him 6 weeks to put a load in! He does occasionally do the laundry but not enough and he doesn't do it properly.
He has never made / changed the bed in all of the time we have been together. He often leaves pants / socks on the floor etc.
We have a cleaner who comes in once a week, which has helped a bit.
How do I make him do more housework? If I ask him to do a specific task he whinges and won't do it for ages so it's just not worth asking him and I end up doing it myself.
I am actually considering leaving him over this issue, he's just being so bloody selfish, and it's only going to get worse when the baby comes along.
Anyone got any tips on how to get him motivated? Or to use a bit of his own initiative occasionally?
Help much appreciated! Thanks

"Just one thing to add: the question of the OP leaving is not necessarily just a threat, a negotiating position, as many seem to assume. It could be considered to be the only rational, realistic thing to do in the circumstances. Certainly I would be seriously considering it in her shoes. Why the assumption that keeping the relationship together necessarily trumps all else?"

Brilliant post. There is a lot of good advice on this thread, however some people can be rather scathing about the 'MN "leave him"' brigade. However in some situations that is the only sensible option I think.

Well said vezzie. It's bloody depressing isn't it? There seem to be a lot of people who just accept that this is the way of the world. It is the way of the world for a lot of people (myself included sometimes) but it shouldn't be. And I agree that leaving someone because of they treat you like the (unpaid) hired help is a perfectly valid reason to leave! I've been tempted myself on many occasions.

animua i also think your posts are excellent and agree with everything you have said completely

Gondolo - are you considering splitting some of your leave with your husband, as you will be able to do? I strongly suggest you discuss this possibility with him - you simply must not fall into the role of 'baby specialist' simply by virtue of being the one taking all the leave. An man like your husband will take full advantage of this, and you will be a full time doc, a cook cleanber and housekeeper, and doing all the baby work too. Having him take (even only) two months of part leave after you return to work could be a great way to start your new life together.

Anyone who thinks this isn't about gender is unwilling to face the truth, I'm afraid.

I didn't say leave him, because it might not be what she wants to do. I'm not going to argue with those who advocate it, though. And I might come down quite hard off the fence depending on how the OP's H reacts to The Talk.

Talking first though. And considering of options. There are always options.

Personally I would threaten seriously to leave if he didn't change his ways significantly. And then I would leave. But to me this would be an absolute deal-breaker.

and the OP can afford to, she would be able to get decent childcare etc as a single parent.

I know quite a few dual-doctor couples, some of them do manage an equitable gender split. Being a hospital consultant doesn't give someone a licence to leave their dirty pants on the floor for someone else to clean.

Yes, completely agree with vezzie.

IME it is absolutely miserable having a child with somebody who won't take responsibility. After DD was born, I realised that I was doing everything - DIY, childcare, housework, household organisation, the lot - as well as working FT. XP was unwilling to change, we separated, my life improved 100% instantly, even with the pain of a relationship break-up, shared care of DD etc. I haven't regretted it for a minute.

Even if you could pay somebody to do your H's share (which as animula and others have pointed out, you can't) you would still be stuck in a relationship with a lazy, inconsiderate, arrogant arse who doesn't respect you as a human being. In my case, this killed all love and romance (although XP and I get on very well now I don't have to do his share of the chores).

I thnk leaving a man like this is a perfeclty valid option. I wish more women did leave men who behave like this. Because staying with a man who thinks you are his servant will ruin your whole life. You will spend years churning with hatred and resentment, physically exhausted and in absolute despair. I have said on other threads and in different circumstances that trying to make someone love you will wear you out physically and mentally and will never work - and a man who is this lazy, selfish, sexist and entitled doesn't love you and never well. Not as a human being, anyway. If he loves you at all it's the way most human beings love dogs, or cats - they feel affections for the creature, they may well treat it quite kindly ie not kick it or starve it or frighten it, but they can't move beyond the fact that it's only an animal - and to a man like this, a woman is only a woman.

Hi gondolo,

so you've experienced what it is like, you doing all the housework and emotional work and everything, with it being just the two of you. People on this thread have perhaps given you an idea what it might very well be like when your baby arrives.

Take a look here to see what it COULD be like, if things were better:
equallysharedparenting.com/

The contrast will really bring it home how raw a deal you are getting!

My suggestion would be to try getting there with your DH, but if it doesn't work, cut your losses. However, I think in order to have a realistic shot at achieving a more (if not completely) equal labour relationship, you will need to find a different approach. I think key elements need to be:

• He needs to understand that when he doesn't do his part of the housework, he is not just being lazy, but rather he is actively disrespecting you and treating you as a servant and CHOOSING to break up his marriage despite his marriage vows. In order for him to understand this, it seems that sadly, you need to tell him explicitly. You need to sit him down for a very serious talk. Perhaps you need to use language he can understand, you know best what might work - perhaps: 'If you don't start pulling your weight and taking responsibility NOW, it is a dealbreaker.' 'You take responsibility for the house and family, or you leave. It is YOUR choice. You get to choose, today. If you choose to disrespect me, you leave.' Probably you will need to remind him, maybe on a daily basis: 'You are disrespecting me. That means you have to leave.' Or: 'Do you really want to break up this marriage? No? Then do what you need to, respect me.'

• He needs to be equally responsible for house/family/admin stuff. That means, it CAN'T be about him doing tasks you assign him to do (preferably in the exact way you wish them to be done). If he says: 'Well ok then, tell me what I should do' you need to resist. It should not be your job, your responsibility, and him just conforming in order to keep you happy. Research has shown that the only really successful way of achieving shared loads of housework is if both partners share the responsibility. For you, that probably means letting go. It needs to be ok for him to do things his way. At first he will probably mess things up, because he lacks years of experience. But if you tell him how he must fold the towels and how he must sort clothes into the cupboard, he can never take responsibility, will not feel in charge, and will find the first opportunity to stop doing it.

• You probably need to keep time accounts. Research has also shown that despite aiming for equality, and even when both man and woman believe they are doing equal amounts, women do more. The only way to counter this is by keeping rotas and accounts. Probably your DH will say that this is childish, over the top, unnecessary, pedantic. However, claiming it is unnecessary to keep accounts on housekeeping activities simply means not valuing housekeeping enough to bother. It literally means that your housekeeping work DOESN'T COUNT to him. It means that not just does he not participate in it, but also, he doesn't even value what you do for him. So there. Start keeping accounts.

• I think it would be very unlikely to successfully achieve these things once your baby is born. You'll be too tired and exhausted to go through the discussions and serious talking needed. That's why you need to start this now.

• Dividing tasks up between the two of you, mutually agreed, is ok. Hired help is ok. But it needs to be HIM hiring and paying for help for HIS tasks. And if he is to do the cleaning, and pays for and organises a cleaner, that doesn't mean he gets to ignore the breadcrumbs on the floor in between the times the cleaner comes!

HTH and good luck.

But what if she loves him?
I do think there are some people who do not understand how much the other person in their relationship does, even though they love them and their children deeply.

OP- what you need is a wife.

Great post vezzie, something I've long thought, but never quite articulated.

I'd rather be in the "leave him" brigade than the "stay together no matter how badly he treats you" brigade.

Ha- spectacular x-post there!
great post meita.

Good advice from Meita there. If the OP's H can take all that on board, then there is definitely a chance.

Monmartre, I too have sometimes said 'what I need is a wife' - but what a depressing notion of a wife! Are we women really destined to be domestic slaves? On the 'what if she loves him?' issue, I think it is difficult to love somebody who treats you with such contempt unless you have a serious case of false consciousness.

Good luck, OP.

Leave him.

I'm sure as a Doctor he'll be snapped up pretty quickly by someone he's more suited to.

And you could do with a house-husband, not a career man.

Are you seriously suggesting that working women can't have a husband who works? And presumably vice versa too. Good lord.

Perhaps the most effective thing you could do is to either leave or kick him out, right now, before the baby gets here.

All this talk about trying to get through to him - you won't. You've tried. He is presumably intelligent, he knows what you are talking about - he just doesn't want to budge. He wants you to spend your life picking up after him. And as many others have said - although you can contract out a lot of stuff, you can't contract out the basic grind of having children. So unless you do something very drastic, you are not going to see any positive change. And your life is going to get much harder, much shittier, and your relationship will ultimately nosedive.

You'll not be in a position to do this when you have the baby, so do it now. Talk to him again and say, you have tried to get him to understand, he doesn't. You interpret this as him wanting you to be his servant. You don't want to do that or see why you should have to. So you want to be apart from him to assess whether it would be better to split permanently. Say you have realised that he doesn't respect you, and because he fails to pull his weight you don't think you respect him anymore. You have been thinking about splitting up ever since and now you want to give it a go. Give him a choice of packing a bag or watching you pack one.

Sound drastic? I can't honestly think of another way to get across to this about-to-be-a-completely-pathetic-father that you really don't have to stay here and serve his needs for the next forty years. If the above doesn't make him realise that he simply cannot be like this and stay in a happy marriage, nothing will.

Same problem here, BUT we are not both Drs. My DP works from 10am or 12pm to 9pm five days a week (including a saturday) and then 10am to 3pm on a Sunday (only has Tuedays off) whereas I work 8 to 5 Mon to Fri.
I do 98% of everything and the only thing he does is cook occasionally if he finishes early or on a Tueday.
I have tried talking to him about this before and he has said he is sorry and will make more of an effort but the effort lasts for no longer than one week.
Last night I tried to have it out with him again when he got back from work because I had been feeling awful all day (nearly five months pregnant) and there was no food in the house when I got home due to ME not having the time to do shopping last weekend. BUT when I had it out with him all he did was start shouting in my face about how I was a moody and sulking bitch and he didn't if I left him he'd have the baby taken off me when it's born!!!! Just before he went to sleep I got a short "I'm sorry for shouting" but nothing else.
He always says he has no money and even though he claims to be looking for a better paid job with better hours in time for the baby coming last night he told me he is more than happy to settle for his crap hours and crap money because when I'm on maternity leave he'll see me more then anyway!
Don't know what to do!
I have also been told by him that when I'm on maternity leave I'll be able to cook all the meals and do all the shopping and housework because I will have the time!!

By the way, before I get asked why I decided to have a baby with this less than caring man, it was an accident.

ShoutyHamster - here here

Renaissance227 - you poor thing. Nobody should be treated like that, let along when they are pregnant. Shouting in your face, calling you a bitch, and threatening to take the baby off you is NOT normal behaviour. In fact it is abusive. Please read this link:
What is domestic violence? and seek some help.

Renaissance227 i'm so sorry you're going through this, it sounds awful.

my DH was also like this until very recently we made up a list of daily and weekly tasks and assigned half of each of them to ourselves as well as a daily and weekly timeslot to do them which suits DS and both our working hours, we're only in our 2nd week but it seems to be working.

if its relevant (i think it is) my DH was diagnosed with depression a couple months ago and has gotten much better since being on meds although they did take a while to have an affect.

when i say DH was "also like this" i mean lazy not shouty or violent, sorry just read back and didn't say very well.

Renaissance what you described about your DP shouting in your face and calling you abusive names is setting off alarm bells.

Renaissance, your partner is abusive and will get worse. You won't be able to keep him from abusing you by doing the housework and becoming the perfect servant, either, because abusers like abusing and will find any excuse to do so. Ignore any bullshit about him having your DC taken from you, it's a very common abuser's threat and it's bullshit. Contact Women's Aid who will help you work out what to do about getting rid of him when you are ready to do so (it doesn't hurt to have all the necessary information even if you feel that you will be able to find a way to 'make things work' with this piece of shit your partner.

I very much doubt whether he will manage to have the baby taken off you . Or that he'd want to look after it even if he could. He just knows it's one thing that sets new mothers into an instant, primal tizzy.

'Orrible bastard.

Thanks everyone! I think this IS a little to do with gender politics, his mum is a SAHM, his dad was breadwinner, it is a deeply engrained socio-cultural belief that hanging out washing is beneath him.
Irritatingly, he has not yet sorted out his paternity leave, so there's no guarantee he will be able to take it.
Ill let you all know how things develop! Thanks all x

He needs to be scared into the reality of the situation. Talking to him, in whatever tone you might use, will not work long term and you will always have to keep up the nagging.
Is there somewhere you can stay for a good couple of weeks? even a hotel (which by the sounds of it would be a nice break)...if so, i would suggest leaving him for a while. Don't tell him you're considering coming back - make it look like a real split. This will scare him and make him realise what he has - will work for a good year.
Whether you like to admit it or not he thinks you're a push-over and will get away with as much as possible knowing the repercussions are small.