What makes you put up with it?

[Thomas1969]

Im new on MN but need some advice. Why do there seem to be so many women who will put up with their partners disrespectful behaviour? My mum dealt with everything from just plain rudeness to physical violence for 20 odd years and some of the stories I read here are totally shocking. I know there must be a good explanation and Im not trying to get anyones gander up, I just don't understand. He has cheated for years yet its YOU who feel guilty. He never comes home when he says he will but its YOU who try to placate him. He tells you he's leaving after 40 years to go play with a new toy he's found and YOU wonder what you did wrong. What's it all about???

Don't forget people who are happy rarely post for advice, help, rant or a sounding board.

Many of those that stay are subjected to slow and seeping abuse for years, eating away at her already fragile self esteem, and to get the same buzz, he has to be nastier/harder/crueller to keep her controlled.

Stick around, try to understand the subtle nuances of life with a controlling person, see what devastation it wreaks. Watch also for the slow dawn of realisation when she begins to see that 'her' normal is not like anyone else's normal.

I get you but I do have a bit of experience. None of our family (4 girls 2 boy M & D) have talked to each other for years, which has been quite devestating. I just wonder, do people get into relationships too soon. Is the idea of giving your whole self to your partner wrong. After all, if a person who says he loves you wants to change you the minute he gets some control he isn't really in love with you at all.

Giving all of yourself? I dunno. I'm not the best person to ask.

I think you have to make time for your own self too in a relationship, to have your own space, however that works for you.

If you don't value yourself enough to put your foot down when someone tries to take some of your rights, and allow yourself to be 'told', then it can lead to a dark place. If you stand up for yourself and say, er, no, that's not going to work with me when it really matters and the other person listens then it's great and healthy.

If a person falls into the path of an abusive and controlling person, unless they know what the red flags look like, then it's all too easy to get totally swept up in the rush of it all and before you know it you are trapped.

It's not as obvious as you say in your post, if it was it'd be easier to fight. It's a slightly less appreciative look, an odd expression, a silence. That is enough to stop you in your tracks to begin with. As you overcome these subtle mechanisms for control, the controller steps up the pressure, usually having alienated/isolated you from your support network.

Im beginning to think a lot of men must be sociopaths. No joke. After all, what would make him want to control someone like that when he could find himself a nice hobby to occupy his time. Whats this need he has to break people down when he could just have easily let them be and gone on his way. Maybe I asked the wrong question to start with. Maybe I should ask why men need to be so coniving.

Self-esteem issues and lack of personal boundries. Usually as a result of upbringing.
This then feeds the type of person that wishes to blame others for their own failings - usually an upbringing issue also.

While many abusive men are I'm sure sociopaths, many others are just screwed up.
Myself and H at least would fall into the formentioned categories.

So its self-perpetuating? Makes sense I spose. Bloody evil though to basically take someones life away from them by saying, 40 years later, by the way Im not the person you married/partnered, what you thought were kisses was me having my sick fun with you. Everything you thought we did together I knew was a lie. Our kids were something I did to wile away the time while I was laughing behind your back.

Trouble is, the whole female purity trip is responsible for many a relationship going on well past it's best by date.

To explain: A woman is kind of expected to be as chaste as possible, ie not to have slept with many men before the man she marries/enters into a serious long term relationship with. So if she goes out with someone and he's a git, so she ends it, then she is already ONE DOWN. Then the second or subsequent relationships tank for whatever reason, so the pressure mounts or someone will think there is something wrong with her. Add in the biological clock ticking away and it only compounds the issue. So then she starts to lose self esteem, puts up with someone she wouldn't ordinarily put up with/ends up being targetted by someone who will take advantage of her.

it's social conditioning, HE Macho, SHE demure

My mum got told she was taking a job away from a man in the 70s, we've come a long way since then, but it's still early days in our equality.

its worth bearing in mind that we only hear one side of a story

i often suspect if we knew the full situation, our advice would be completely different which is why i generally stay away from the "leave him, he's a bastard" mentality

bluepaws - that's a bit misguided in these circumstances. Regardless of the other side of the story - abuse should never be tolerated.

For someone in an abusive situation - the 'other side of the story' attitude just feeds the self-doubt - 'yes, there is another side of the story and that's why I deserve to be treated like shit'.

Abuse is abuse, regardless of what the circumstances are.

I think the biological clock thing has a lot to answer for. Wish I understood it better. It seems like all women are watching each other and are scared of realising they've made an honest mistake and moving on.

It's hideously complicated and in huge part due to social conditioning. I agree a lot with HerHissyness.

Take me for example. Happy, completely functional childhood with parents modelling a very healthy relationship. Still found myself with an abuser, even though I always swore I'd never let a man abuse me. The trouble was, I didn't recognise a lot of abuse and my XP chose to wait until I was pregnant and living with him before he really showed his true colours. It started off with little things like not pulling his weight around the house. I was 3-months pregnant and thought I couldn't leave my baby fatherless over some washing up. As women we are conditioned to accept this as normal, and while it's changing slowly, there's an awful long way to go.

Trouble is, after things like that, the odd joke at your expense creeps in and you don't want to seem like you have a sense of humour failure so you laugh with everyone else, and if you tackle it you hear "but I was only joking. I didn't mean to." Then it escalates to isolation. My XP never 'told' me I wasn't 'allowed' to go out. The first few times it seemed that a genuine reason had come up why I couldn't leave him - he was ill, he needed my help with something etc. Then I would be treated to 'but why am I not enough for you? If you really loved me you'd want to go out with me instead of them". If I stood my ground and went out I'd be questioned on what I'd done when I got back. If I accused him of being insecure and jealous I'd get "But you're so beautiful - it's not that I don't trust you it's other people. I'm sorry, I do trust you honestly". Another tactic would be that he'd be stroppy and uncommunicative the day after I'd been out the night before, but perfectly fine the day after that. Before long - and the important point here is that you don't even realise you're doing it - you start making reasons for yourself why you can't go out, because subconsciously you recognise that it's just too hard work. Yet your abuser can honestly say he never once said "I'm not letting you go out." Because you haven't been hit and you haven't been called names or screamed at, you think you're over-reacting and you minimise it. Over time, this becomes so normal that you hardly recognise the escalation.

It's insidious. No man ever starts off being abusive. He doesn't wear a sign saying "Beware, I may be really nice to you to start with but once I've got you where I want you I'm going to start beating you up." Violence is at the very end of the spectrum and there are an awful lot of women in abusive relationships where violence has never featured because it doesn't need to - the ultimate aim is control and master manipulators don't need to lift a finger; they can achieve it all with a glance and a phrase. In my case, the day my XP graduated to violence and tried to strangle me, I suddenly saw it as clear as I've written it here and I left there and then. I'm honest enough to admit that I could still be there though if he hadn't got violence. Since I left, 4 years ago, I've done an awful lot of reading and talking about this subject and become very good indeed at recognising the red flags. I wish someone had taught me about them when I was younger. Sometimes, being brought up in a happy, sheltered household leaves you naive and vulnerable to abuse just as much as someone brought up in a household where abuse is normal.

Hope that helps to explain a little bit.

I'm really glad I started this thread. Thanks all. Keep it coming please.

Keeping someone isolated and confused plays a big part i spose. Contact with others brings possible knowledge to her that she isn't mad or moody. Are there any Golden Rules in any of this?

What advice is it you want OP?

I jwas just wondering, if I had a daughter is there any advice I could give her about staying safe that would always be true.

Lots of flags to watch out for. Reality has a long-running thread called RIGHT! LISTEN UP EVERYBODY (or something like that) which outlines the major ones.

I think one of the main problems is that a lot of conventional wisdom about abusers is becoming out of date. In the past, one of the major signs was a man who considered a woman's place to be in the home. But these days a lot of male abusers will have female bosses who they have no problem with and are quite happy for their wives/girlfriends to work. They exert control in other ways. That's why the Lundy Bancroft book is so good - it shows all the different types of abuse.

Also different to the past is that many abusers today (like mine) will give a woman financial responsibility for the household. You'd think this would demonstrate a respect for women but what is does in reality is mean the women is culpable for all the bills, meaning that's where all her money goes and she's little left to save or spend on herself. It's all well and good thinking you can and should ask for more, but if your XP is self-employed (like mine) it's hard to prove he does have more. And if he claims all the money is "ours" and "all you have to do is ask" when you need it (but then be persuaded out of spending it on something for yourself for what seem like compelling reasons at the time), it quickly becomes a pattern.

No one can ever be completely safe because the really skilled abusers/manipulators are capable of 'grooming' their victims for an incredibly long time. However, most are not of that 'calibre' and will nearly always display one of Reality's red flags at some point in the early days of the relationship.

My favourite is the 'waitress test'. If someone you are dating treats anyone in a manner that can be considered abusive, you should be aware that however much he tells you different, he can (and probably will) end up treating you in the same way at some point in the future.

Ok, Reality's thread is not the one I was thinking of, although it's still well worth reading.

You could try this site for some more info.

But this book should be required reading for everyone IMO

That's the point isn't it. A person like that will find a way. He won't stick to any particular means. Its the 'ends' that matters for him. Thanks, i'll check that thread. It makes me wonder, of the men I know, which ones are nasty pieces of work when they get home.

I think classes in school is a good idea. It was suggested on that thread.

Absolutely! But it would help. Someone has a topic on here about needing their husbands signature to get a divorce which says a great deal.

Hey, that link is to the Refuge site. My mum, youngest sister and I were some of the 1st to stay at their Chiswick refuge in early 70's. You just brought back some faint memories.